DISCLAIMER: This is in the spirit of the Nas thread, and I in no way want to force my opinion on anybody. Me personally, I happen to think Jay-Z is the greatest emcee of all time, and though I have solid arguments to support it, not many agree with me. Most people would say Biggie, Pac or Nas are the best, but me personally, I look at Jay's career and find no way that he's not the GOAT. Here's my thoughts:

Where artists always say "Oh, this album is a progression, it's me in another light, etc.", most do not back it up. But Jay does. Throughout his whole career, Jay has progressed throughout his discography and shown maturity as a artist.

Reasonable Doubt - A young, hungry street kid who was coming up, showing lyricism and intelligent concepts ("D'Evils"), making a huge impact on the game telling his story.

FF to...

Vol. 2...Hard Knock Life - Jay is beginning to become established, beginning to showcase his buddies in the game (Siegel, Bleek, etc.) a lot more, and basically starting to enjoy himself and his position: "If I should die, don't cry my *****s/I did joints with Mary J. Blige my *****s"

Progressing to...

The Blueprint - Jay is a BOSS in every sense of the word. Roc-A-Fella is showcasing many artists, and becoming an industry standard. He's got his Rocawear line, and this album takes everybody by storm, with instant replay value, and also the start of a showcase of an up and coming star in Kanye West producing many joints for him. Jay has done it again.

Finally...

The Black Album - Jay is determined to say "Goodbye" after nearly a decade of putting out quality music, bringing his mother on a record, talking about his hindered relationship with his dead father, etc. A seriously underrated album if you ask me, Jay bows out...

But...

Once Jay comes back, he put out "Kingdom Come", which I admit wasn't his best but he has a few really dope joints on that album, better than 90% of the **** still being put out in hip hop. Then, "American Gangster" hits, and that album is a ****ing monster, I don't know why people aren't talking about it more. That **** is SERIOUS, his storytellin ability throughout that album is nuts, and I believe that album was one of the best to come out in the past year, no doubt.

Everybody's entitled to their opinions, I know there's always people saying Jay's a "biter, not a writer", but that's not true most of the time, plus it's not like he's biting an entire verse, he re-produces classic lines and makes them fit his style. Not to mention his businesss moves, making millions outside of hip hop, yet still coming back and dropping RIDICULOUS **** every which way.

Thoughts? :boxing:

Jay-Z is my favorite MC all time. I don't know if hes the greatest, but you really could make a strong argument for it. It really depends on how you think. If you put aside the fact that he didn't make political/lets make the world better type songs, then yes he is the greatest.

I think alot of people underate Jay-Z, many people just hate his guts. So many will tell you a whole bunch of BS about how he sucks. But alot of it is just them having personal vendetta against a man they never met. Just what you want to believe, like most things.

Rakim, Nas, LL Cool J, Scarface, Cee-Lo, Chuck D., Kool G Rap, Masta Ace, Pharoahe Monch, Tech N9ne(yep.).......I think I can go on.

Rakim, Nas, LL Cool J, Scarface, Cee-Lo, Chuck D., Kool G Rap, Masta Ace, Pharoahe Monch, Tech N9ne(yep.).......I think I can go on.

N9ne and Monch? Come one now... They shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as most of those guys.

N9ne and Monch? Come one now... They shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as most of those guys.

when I think "great" rapper, I think more of lyrical skills. I simply disagree that Tech N9ne and Pharoahe Monch have inferior lyrical skills to Jay-Z. Jay-Z has been far more successful, undeniable.

when I think "great" rapper, I think more of lyrical skills. I simply disagree that Tech N9ne and Pharoahe Monch have inferior lyrical skills to Jay-Z. Jay-Z has been far more successful, undeniable.

N9ne in particular brings nothing much more than lyrics to his game. He has a bad persona that he tries to sell which doesn't work. Monch is nothing more than a lyricist.. but a very nice one.

The rest of those guys that you listed were the complete package in terms of being rappers with their own unique sounds and personas.

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Not IMO. But you could make a claim for him. He's made some great albums sold a lot of records and has become filthy rich. And he gets to smash Beyonce.

Godzy, you're my man and all, but idk what you were expecting when ou posted all those vids? I'm not gonna sit here and listen through it. I've heard plenty of Tech's ****. I would have preferred a worded response.

Godzy, you're my man and all, but idk what you were expecting when ou posted all those vids? I'm not gonna sit here and listen through it. I've heard plenty of Tech's ****. I would have preferred a worded response.

I don't expect you to listen to them, just offering my opinion with references. Anghellic is a great album, Absolute Power and Everready are very good albums and comparing to Jay-Z's, are all better than In My Lifetime vol.1, Kingdom Come and American Gangster, and In My Lifetime Vol.3, IMO . Songs like the ones I've posted, "The Industry is Punks", "Big Bad Wolf", this new song "Killer" is just plain disgusting. "Questions" is one of the greatest hip hop songs I've ever heard. "God Complex", his disgusting verses on "Why" and "The Anthem"...., he hasn't had as visible of a career as Jay-Z, but in terms of how I see something as greatness, he's greater than Jay-Z. I'm not a Jay-Z hater, and I have almost every album. I think he's somewhat overrated. I can also see a case being made for such a claim (GOAT). I just think that there are quite a few that are greater than Jay-Z.

Clearly Jay is one of the best to ever do it but I think it's a close race between him and Face.

I'm not a big Jay-Z fan myself but I respect all he has accomplished, he's definitely up there. His longevity and the consistency of his albums definitely put him in the hall of fame. There's certainly a strong argument to say he is the greatest rapper of all time as he ticks all the boxes.

One of the most overrated Hip Hop artists i can agree on.

I'm not saying he's bad or anything, but anybody saying he's the GOAT is overrating him.

I really don't see the hype surrounding him. I own Reasonable Doubt. That is a classic, no arguements. I have Hard Knock.....which is ok, but hardly ever gets rotary in my collection. I've heard the Black Album, which is good.....nothing special. Same with American Gangster.....although it was one of the best releases of last year only because it was an all-round poor year for Rap.

He is consistent, i'll give him that. He sells, one of only few artists who is liked by the critics and public alike. It's usually one or the other.

Flow - When Jay is at his best, he's unmatchable
Lyrics - Good, but there are 20+ active rappers now who beat him on lyrics.

As an emcee, i'd have him in my top 20 all-time. To be considered the greatest, you have to have some sort of imput that changed the whole rap game altogether. Jay, for me didn't do that. Even LL did more for rap in his early years.

Rakim, Nas, Kool G, Big Daddy Kane - i can argue for any of these guys to be considered the greatest. I'm not the biggest fan of Tupac or Jay, but Tupac did more for rap and will always be considered better then Jay, if not the greatest of all-time.

N9ne in particular brings nothing much more than lyrics to his game. He has a bad persona that he tries to sell which doesn't work. Monch is nothing more than a lyricist.. but a very nice one.

The rest of those guys that you listed were the complete package in terms of being rappers with their own unique sounds and personas.

Monch is a GREAT lyricist. First of all.

Second of all, you claim Tech's 'bad personal' doesn't sell? He's never once had major play and has gone gold a couple of times and has had pretty big waves of news about him without major backing. Also, he has a STRONG tour base based upon that very stage persona that you claim doesn't sell.

So, there's that.

personally i think he's 2nd best after Nas and before 2Pac

One of the most overrated Hip Hop artists i can agree on.

I'm not saying he's bad or anything, but anybody saying he's the GOAT is overrating him.

I really don't see the hype surrounding him. I own Reasonable Doubt. That is a classic, no arguements. I have Hard Knock.....which is ok, but hardly ever gets rotary in my collection. I've heard the Black Album, which is good.....nothing special. Same with American Gangster.....although it was one of the best releases of last year only because it was an all-round poor year for Rap.

He is consistent, i'll give him that. He sells, one of only few artists who is liked by the critics and public alike. It's usually one or the other.

Flow - When Jay is at his best, he's unmatchable
Lyrics - Good, but there are 20+ active rappers now who beat him on lyrics.

As an emcee, i'd have him in my top 20 all-time. To be considered the greatest, you have to have some sort of imput that changed the whole rap game altogether. Jay, for me didn't do that. Even LL did more for rap in his early years.

Rakim, Nas, Kool G, Big Daddy Kane - i can argue for any of these guys to be considered the greatest. I'm not the biggest fan of Tupac or Jay, but Tupac did more for rap and will always be considered better then Jay, if not the greatest of all-time.

Wow i don't even have to reply to this thread.

Although i don't believe his flow is unmatchable.

I don't expect you to listen to them, just offering my opinion with references. Anghellic is a great album, Absolute Power and Everready are very good albums and comparing to Jay-Z's, are all better than In My Lifetime vol.1, Kingdom Come and American Gangster, and In My Lifetime Vol.3, IMO . Songs like the ones I've posted, "The Industry is Punks", "Big Bad Wolf", this new song "Killer" is just plain disgusting. "Questions" is one of the greatest hip hop songs I've ever heard. "God Complex", his disgusting verses on "Why" and "The Anthem"...., he hasn't had as visible of a career as Jay-Z, but in terms of how I see something as greatness, he's greater than Jay-Z. I'm not a Jay-Z hater, and I have almost every album. I think he's somewhat overrated. I can also see a case being made for such a claim (GOAT). I just think that there are quite a few that are greater than Jay-Z.

I agree. He may not have as many fans, as many hits, as many sales, as much money, as much media attention, but at the end of the day, Tech is a better rapper than Jay Z! I'm a big Jay Z fan and have seen him live twice which is quite a big thing considering he rarely comes to the UK, but I do believe that Tech is the better rapper.

no!...................

One of the most overrated Hip Hop artists i can agree on.

I'm not saying he's bad or anything, but anybody saying he's the GOAT is overrating him.

I really don't see the hype surrounding him. I own Reasonable Doubt. That is a classic, no arguements. I have Hard Knock.....which is ok, but hardly ever gets rotary in my collection. I've heard the Black Album, which is good.....nothing special. Same with American Gangster.....although it was one of the best releases of last year only because it was an all-round poor year for Rap.

He is consistent, i'll give him that. He sells, one of only few artists who is liked by the critics and public alike. It's usually one or the other.

Flow - When Jay is at his best, he's unmatchable
Lyrics - Good, but there are 20+ active rappers now who beat him on lyrics.

As an emcee, i'd have him in my top 20 all-time. To be considered the greatest, you have to have some sort of imput that changed the whole rap game altogether. Jay, for me didn't do that. Even LL did more for rap in his early years.

Rakim, Nas, Kool G, Big Daddy Kane - i can argue for any of these guys to be considered the greatest. I'm not the biggest fan of Tupac or Jay, but Tupac did more for rap and will always be considered better then Jay, if not the greatest of all-time.

Agree fully, and you haven't even touched on the number of ****ty beats that got put on albums. One thing people have to consider though, Jay came up in an era where Hiphop was in full throttle mode. His predecessors set him up to be able to succeed. 2 Live Crew fighting the courts for the right to say what they want on wax, NWA for putting such a drastic twist on what Hiphop was and became being the most notable examples. I'd say Jay is top ten, but greatest ever? I'd take Cube, KRS, Rakim, LL, all before him rather easily. Those MCs made it to the top when Hiphop wasn't on every radio station, when Hiphop wasn't even on MTV, when Hiphop was barely making its impact.

Its no coincidence that Jay wasn't making any noise when Pac and Big were around. Same thing with DMX and Ja Rule. Jay just happened to be the better businessman which enabled him to reach his status.

simply put, no.

nas is better den jay-z

Its no coincidence that Jay wasn't making any noise when Pac and Big were around. Same thing with DMX and Ja Rule. Jay just happened to be the better businessman which enabled him to reach his status.

Very good point, and Nas was making noise then, something people ought to consider when they go around comparing these two.

There's really never been a niggа this good for this long.

However, those who stood the best chance at accomplishing such a feat died.

2Pac and Biggie are Pele And Maradona.

Jay-Z is Zidane.

Jay Z is an acquired taste.

Zidane was flat out amazing no matter weather you were a football fan or not.

Jay Z is an acquired taste.

Zidane was flat out amazing no matter weather you were a football fan or not.

Then I guess my assessment is inacurrate.

Im, unstoppable HOV
Untoppable FLOWS

jiggas got the best flow...overall i think if hes not top 5 hes top 10. Hes got one of the best and most consistent discographys of any rapper. From what i see most heads go with rakim, pac, or nas. Im not sure what order those 3 go in.....

pac was the most versatile
Some believe rakim dropped 5 classics in a row
Nas is the concept king and one of the best lyricists ever