This was sparked by a thread ROSEWOOD started where he acted as if Lil' Wayne was certified as TRULY great simply due to album sales.

So, I ask the question... Do album sales determine greatness?

Vote. Discuss.

Not at all.

The underground contains some of the best emcees alive yet they don't sell well at all!

This was sparked by a thread ROSEWOOD started where he acted as if Lil' Wayne was certified as TRULY great simply due to album sales.

So, I ask the question... Do album sales determine greatness?

Vote. Discuss.
Fool, I never said that record sales determines greatness....But I will say its appart of the entire scope...Check the King of Pop..He had all the tools to define his greatness, including album sales..Wayne is a Great artist..He'll continue to piss on you hater with every feature & album dropped..

There are great artist that can't sale a bee-bee....

Now tell me this, how many artist besides Lil Wayne, Kanye, 50 & Usher can get damn near 1 million bootleg hits and still sell 1 million original copies???

no... from my understanding u buy a CD before u heard it?

No way, Effective marketing is the way to make an album a success nowadays. You can take any moron who makes random noises and whose lyrics dont make any sense at all, but bombard people with marketing by say its hip and cool and people will start to believe it.

Case in point Soulja Boy!

No way, Effective marketing is the way to make an album a success nowadays. You can take any moron who makes random noises and whose lyrics dont make any sense at all, but bombard people with marketing by say its hip and cool and people will start to believe it.

Case in point Soulja Boy!

Well said!

Fool, I never said that record sales determines greatness....But I will say its appart of the entire scope...Check the King of Pop..He had all the tools to define his greatness, including album sales..Wayne is a Great artist..He'll continue to piss on you hater with every feature & album dropped..

There are great artist that can't sale a bee-bee....

Now tell me this, how many artist besides Lil Wayne, Kanye, 50 & Usher can get damn near 1 million bootleg hits and still sell 1 million original copies???

Not many. So? I don't think Usher or 50 are great either.

One-hit wonders sell a million copies. It's only impressive to an extent because Wayne did it nowadays which is hard to do. NSync wasn't a great group and their numbers rape Lil' Wayne.

Sales can help you tell if a lot of people think someone is great, sure. But, it doesn't mean those people aren't wrong. In Wayne's case, they are closer to being wrong than right. He's above average. And he'd be looked at by me as a lot better if he would humble himself and realize his wordplay (which, next to his swagger, is his best attribute) is not close to ACTUAL greats like Big Pun, Big L, or even current undergroiund artists. He's not even the best in the south.

Outkast, Scarface, Chamillionaire, T.I., Ludacris.. all better than Wayne.

As a truly CLASSIC artist, sales are usually involved. But, just because he has the sales, doesn't mean he's a great artist. Not one bit. He should try making some songs that actually have a meaning and point behind them. He's making his music at the right time. He's not making timeless music.

no... from my understanding u buy a CD before u heard it?


Generally how it works. Though with the Internet and bootlegging, that depends.

Nope. Only kids buy albums. Meaning talentless fake ass *****s sell loads like Ross and Soulja Boy.

Fool, I never said that record sales determines greatness....

Really.... I'm curious, how did you vote?

Furthermore, he wont ever piss on me. Ever. I'd be willing to bet that I rap better than him, and that most knowledgeable hip hop heads would atest to that.

Regardless of if that's true or not, it's not important. He still is only above average. I doubt any album he sells after this comes CLOSE to selling what this album does in total, let alone in it's first week. He had a nice run, good peak. Great for him. I don't hate the guy.

But, he's above average at best.

Really.... I'm curious, how did you vote?

Furthermore, he wont ever piss on me. Ever. I'd be willing to bet that I rap better than him, and that most knowledgeable hip hop heads would atest to that.

Regardless of if that's true or not, it's not important. He still is only above average. I doubt any album he sells after this comes CLOSE to selling what this album does in total, let alone in it's first week. He had a nice run, good peak. Great for him. I don't hate the guy.

But, he's above average at best.
I voted yes..because I belive its part of the entire scope...Souja Boy sold millions AFTER the superman hit drop so his numbers really don't count..Wayne sold 400K the first day...with hearing the album, 400k men, women and kids bought this album..

Not to knock your talent, everyone is alway better than the best..lol..

I voted yes..because I belive its part of the entire scope...Souja Boy sold millions AFTER the superman hit drop so his numbers really don't count..Wayne sold 400K the first day...with hearing the album, 400k men, women and kids bought this album..

Not to knock your talent, everyone is alway better than the best..lol..

Maybe so, but I didn't mention the best. I mentioned Lil' Wayne.

Not many. So? I don't think Usher or 50 are great either.

One-hit wonders sell a million copies. It's only impressive to an extent because Wayne did it nowadays which is hard to do. NSync wasn't a great group and their numbers rape Lil' Wayne.

Sales can help you tell if a lot of people think someone is great, sure. But, it doesn't mean those people aren't wrong. In Wayne's case, they are closer to being wrong than right. He's above average. And he'd be looked at by me as a lot better if he would humble himself and realize his wordplay (which, next to his swagger, is his best attribute) is not close to ACTUAL greats like Big Pun, Big L, or even current undergroiund artists. He's not even the best in the south.

Outkast, Scarface, Chamillionaire, T.I., Ludacris.. all better than Wayne.

As a truly CLASSIC artist, sales are usually involved. But, just because he has the sales, doesn't mean he's a great artist. Not one bit. He should try making some songs that actually have a meaning and point behind them. He's making his music at the right time. He's not making timeless music.
Usher is a great artist, 50 is great at what he does and Big Pun is far from great.....I wont go past that with your thread..

Maybe so, but I didn't mention the best. I mentioned Lil' Wayne.
Lil Wayne = The best in the game today!!

Usher is a great artist, 50 is great at what he does and Big Pun is far from great.....I wont go past that with your thread..

:nonono: You just owned yourself. :owned:

ROSEWOOD, how far worse than Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer is Lil' Wayne? Is The Carter 3 really 1/10th as good as the Limp Bizkit album?

Usher is a great artist, 50 is great at what he does and Big Pun is far from great.....I wont go past that with your thread..

Big Pun is far from great.....................Yeah, I hope you don't go past that in my thread.

Lil Wayne = Not The best in the game today!!

Really? You feel that way?

Rosewood is a joker!

Usher and 50 better then Big Pun? You sure you aint smokin crack boy?

Rosewood is a joker!

Usher and 50 better then Big Pun? You sure you aint smokin crack boy?

With Usher constantly singing songs about girls, and 50 Cent simplistically rapping about voilence and drug trafficking, how are they NOT great?

So much vision. So much skill.

With Usher constantly singing songs about girls, and 50 Cent simplistically rapping about voilence and drug trafficking, how are they NOT great?

So much vision. So much skill.

Very true, their depth of subject matter is unrivalled! No other artists can compare really.

:nonono: You just owned yourself. :owned:
Let me guess, you love Big Pun??

Let me guess, you love Big Pun??

You don't have to love someone to know or think in your opinion that they are great. That person just has to prove it. Wayne, has yet to.

He's made no timeless music. None.

ROSEWOOD, how far worse than Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer is Lil' Wayne? Is The Carter 3 really 1/10th as good as the Limp Bizkit album?
Actually Carter III isn't better than Limp Bizkit album....
But we all know you're the ultimate Wayne hater..

Let me guess, you love Big Pun??

I'm a fan, yeh. And he was a lot more talented than both Usher and 50 Cent.

Really? You feel that way?
I personally feel that he's the hardest working dude in the game..In this era where artist go on a 3 year vacation is common, hell yea he's the best...I'm strictly talking output now..

I personally feel that he's the hardest working dude in the game..In this era where artist go on a 3 year vacation is common, hell yea he's the best...I'm strictly talking output now..

Sure, he puts out the most music. I would never argue that. But WITH THAT, you have more room to fail and get **** wrong. And on a regualr basis this dude puts the same **** out. He's the best, he moves bricks (he's never done that). It's pointless garbage. If he even SPRINKLED his album with songs LIKE Shooters, or something different, I'd credit him. But that was an ALBUM ago that he did something TRULY outside the box.

That's insane. To get so much credit for staying so neatly in the box, is sad.

Rosewood is a joker!

Usher and 50 better then Big Pun? You sure you aint smokin crack boy?
Usher, like R. Kelly, is a bonifide album/hit maker.....

You don't have to love someone to know or think in your opinion that they are great. That person just has to prove it. Wayne, has yet to.

He's made no timeless music. None.
Pun died before he proved his greatness...sorry..

Usher, like R. Kelly, is a bonifide album/hit maker.....

Hits, don't mean GREATNESS.

He's great at making hits. Otis Redding didn't have as many hits, but Usher compared to Otis Redding.... USHER AIN'T ****.

Sure, he puts out the most music. I would never argue that. But WITH THAT, you have more room to fail and get **** wrong. And on a regualr basis this dude puts the same **** out. He's the best, he moves bricks (he's never done that). It's pointless garbage. If he even SPRINKLED his album with songs LIKE Shooters, or something different, I'd credit him. But that was an ALBUM ago that he did something TRULY outside the box.

That's insane. To get so much credit for staying so neatly in the box, is sad.
With that you have more room to experiment...Wayne has experimented with just about every style of rap out there...He's give the fans what they want..I love Chamillion but I won't hear my boy for another year..

Pun died before he proved his greatness...sorry..

So, then Biggie died before he proved his aswell, right?

Even though, both went platinum BEFORE they died, AND on their first albums, WAY more impressively than Wayne has EVER done.

So, there's that........

With that you have more room to experiment...Wayne has experimented with just about every style of rap out there...He's give the fans what they want..I love Chamillion but I won't hear my boy for another year..

Once again, it's ABOUT the same ****. I don't care about his money, his alleged drug dealings, or the women he wants to ****. Expand or disband. Seriously.

Hits, don't mean GREATNESS.

He's great at making hits. Otis Redding didn't have as many hits, but Usher compared to Otis Redding.... USHER AIN'T ****.
I far from a Usher fan but he's great, R. Kelly is great, Beyonce is great, Destiny's Child is great...All of them have an artist for making great music..their track records speaks for itself playa..

I far from a Usher fan but he's great, R. Kelly is great, Beyonce is great, Destiny's Child is great...All of them have an artist for making great music..their track records speaks for itself playa..

Okay.. NSync was great, Backstreet Boys are great. I got it. Britney Spears is wonderful. Uhuh.

Hits = popularity.

Not skill.

So, then Biggie died before he proved his aswell, right?

Even though, both went platinum BEFORE they died, AND on their first albums, WAY more impressively than Wayne has EVER done.

So, there's that........
Yeap....Hell if Pac was still alive, half of the known artist wouldnt exist..my opinion..Nas wouldn't be ****, Jay Z wouldn't be ****, hell Wayne wouldn't be ****..Only Biggie had the power to withstand that force pac brought to the tracks

Okay.. NSync was great, Backstreet Boys are great. I got it. Britney Spears is wonderful. Uhuh.

Hits = popularity.

Not skill.
It takes skills to makes hit after hit after hit after hit after hit after hit...

Yeap....Hell if Pac was still alive, half of the known artist wouldnt exist..my opinion..Nas wouldn't be ****, Jay Z wouldn't be ****, hell Wayne wouldn't be ****..Only Biggie had the power to withstand that force pac brought to the tracks

So, he could withstand the onslauaght of Pac, but isn't great by your standards since both he and Pun released virtually the same amount of material, while alive.

Yeah..... that makes sense.

Furthermore, if Jay-Z wasn't **** and neither was Nas.. please believe that Wayne would be off shooting himself somewhere for local publicity.

Once again, it's ABOUT the same ****. I don't care about his money, his alleged drug dealings, or the women he wants to ****. Expand or disband. Seriously.
I feel that...Even your old schoolers sang about the same ****..Love Women so Lonely etc..It the nature of the beast playa..

It takes skills to makes hit after hit after hit after hit after hit after hit...

In terms of most of those r&b singers, they have writers. So, they're not even the ones making the hits.

And hits can happen for a lot of people. It's great, and it is a skill. It doens't mean you're great.

A HIT, doesn't equal skill, but constant hits, sure. Still don't equal greatness.

The answer is no.There have been many one hit wonders out there who sold millions but none of them are great emcees!I chose the last option because it's true and it made me laugh!

I feel that...Even your old schoolers sang about the same ****..Love Women so Lonely etc..It the nature of the beast playa..

Doesn't mean I have to like it, listen to it, or respect it.

So, he could withstand the onslauaght of Pac, but isn't great by your standards since both he and Pun released virtually the same amount of material, while alive.

Yeah..... that makes sense.

Furthermore, if Jay-Z wasn't **** and neither was Nas.. please believe that Wayne would be off shooting himself somewhere for local publicity.
Yea I take that back..Biggie was a great...I stand corrected...And yes even Wayne wouldn't have existed..

Yea I take that back..Biggie was a great...I stand corrected...And yes even Wayne wouldn't have existed..

Fair enough.

In terms of most of those r&b singers, they have writers. So, they're not even the ones making the hits.

And hits can happen for a lot of people. It's great, and it is a skill. It doens't mean you're great.

A HIT, doesn't equal skill, but constant hits, sure. Still don't equal greatness.
Ok well just what the **** doe define greatness...Our standard are totally different I see..

Doesn't mean I have to like it, listen to it, or respect it.
You have to listen to Ashford and simpson is you like old school music or music period...They wrong and made the beat for about 40% of the entire music ever made..They loved LOVE..but they're the ****

Ok well just what the **** doe define greatness...Our standard are totally different I see..

Greatness is determined by timeless music. Music that affects peoples lives in NUMEROUS ways, not just about one subject. Music that can take you back to a moment in your life like NO OTHER SONG. In great ways, not just.. 'Damn, Lollipop reminds me of that one blowjob I got that one time....' In REAL WAYS. Ways that can change your mood. For better or worse.

Music that affects how other artists create music. Trend setting. Music that actually starts ACTUAL movements, not the **** that most consider a movement nowadays. Wayne can PARTIALLY do that, though he swagger jacked Jim Jones in terms of style and the voice **** from T-Pain and Roger Troutman before him.

Music that is a big enough hit to touch enough people, but isn't like the norm on the radio. Something outside of the box, something that can still be a big hit, maybe isn't but could be, but doesn't just follow a cookie cutter image. Something different.

Wayne, just doesn't qualify yet. Though, with how long he's been in the game, he's still young. Maybe next album. Maybe he'll talk about something different.

His two best, RECENT songs, I Miss My Dawgs and Shooters. Both about SOMETHING. That's not a coincidence.

Greatness is determined by timeless music. Music that affects peoples lives in NUMEROUS ways, not just about one subject. Music that can take you back to a moment in your life like NO OTHER SONG. In great ways, not just.. 'Damn, Lollipop reminds me of that one blowjob I got that one time....' In REAL WAYS. Ways that can change your mood. For better or worse.

Music that affects how other artists create music. Trend setting. Music that actually starts ACTUAL movements, not the **** that most consider a movement nowadays. Wayne can PARTIALLY do that, though he swagger jacked Jim Jones in terms of style and the voice **** from T-Pain and Roger Troutman before him.

Music that is a big enough hit to touch enough people, but isn't like the norm on the radio. Something outside of the box, something that can still be a big hit, maybe isn't but could be, but doesn't just follow a cookie cutter image. Something different.

Wayne, just doesn't qualify yet. Though, with how long he's been in the game, he's still young. Maybe next album. Maybe he'll talk about something different.

His two best, RECENT songs, I Miss My Dawgs and Shooters. Both about SOMETHING. That's not a coincidence.
I completely understand!

My finger are tired playa and I didn't even typr much..Thanks for the debate playa

I completely understand!

My finger are tired playa and I didn't even typr much..Thanks for the debate playa

Likewise...

Nas put out Illmatic and It Was Written while Pac was alive. Nas has always been a major player in the game.

I'm must be like so out of the hip hop game because the only song I've ever listened to that had Lil' Wayne on it (I **** you not) is "I Rock Ice"

No they don't

The Carter 3 has sold more in the First week then the 18th letter

So is wayne better then Rakim
and Vinilla Ice and MC hammer are better then wayne?
nowadays you can put a sparkiling turn in a bag and people will precive it as gold.

i was looking at #'s and waynes debut sold more then Big L's(double checking that)
So wanye is beter then Big L
Not!
record sales mean mainstream success not lyrical skills at all.

All I know is Wayne is making it hard for other rappers to eat...he def has a choke hold on the game.

hahaha...i like the 3rd option...biased??? stupid thread. It's obvious record sales do not determine greatness and it's obvious you are screaming your dislike for lil wayne and want other people to agree with you...

hahaha...i like the 3rd option...biased??? stupid thread. It's obvious record sales do not determine greatness and it's obvious you are screaming your dislike for lil wayne and want other people to agree with you...

It was a joke, I was talking to ROSEWOOD who loves Lil' Wayne. Notice I didn't vote for that option. And I HAVE NOT ONCE said that I thought Wayne was the wackest rapper of all time or anything along those lines. He's above average and that sadly means he's better than 90 percent of the **** on the radio. I thank him for that. I also thank him for putting in work and stepping his lyrics up. I'd never say he was the wackest rapper of all time. It was a joke, and it made me laugh.

Also, if this obvious, then votes wouldn't have been tallied for the first option. Regardless, the point was to get a better debate going. It did.

So, wasn't THAT stupid.

Also, I don't give a rats ass if people agree with me. I was curious to see the results from the people who post on here, to be honest.

All I know is Wayne is making it hard for other rappers to eat...he def has a choke hold on the game.

artists that don't rely on record sales eat by doing shows and putting out quality music for fans, and a good artist will always have a fan base.


http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178569

artists that don't rely on record sales eat by doing shows and putting out quality music for fans, and a good artist will always have a fan base.


http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178569

Valid point. Tech N9ne has gone gold a couple of times and is making plenty of show money by having great stage pressence.

Well let me ask you this, if it did some of the top rappers would be

MC Hammer
Vanilla Ice
Snow

You get the picture.

Well let me ask you this, if it did some of the top rappers would be

MC Hammer
Vanilla Ice
Snow

You get the picture.


Those three make up my top five alongside Sir Mix-A-Lot and those guys who sang Who Let The Dogs Out?......

Those three make up my top five alongside Sir Mix-A-Lot and those guys who sang Who Let The Dogs Out?......

Well C-Drone, who in your opinion, is the Tye "****in" Fields of hip hop today?

Well C-Drone, who in your opinion, is the Tye "****in" Fields of hip hop today?

Tye Fields is the Tye Fields of hip hop. He ghostwrites every song..........IN ALL OF MUSIC.

And when a song doesn't do well, it's because he wanted it to fail.

artists that don't rely on record sales eat by doing shows and putting out quality music for fans, and a good artist will always have a fan base.


http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178569

Valid point. Tech N9ne has gone gold a couple of times and is making plenty of show money by having great stage pressence.

In comparison Wayne = Steak and Shrimp Tech N9ne = Ramen noodles. But I def don't knock the hustle.

In comparison Wayne = Steak and Shrimp Tech N9ne = Ramen noodles. But I def don't knock the hustle.

Maybe so, but I'll take a cup of soap if the quality of the steak is trash.


Not calling anyone anything, just saying.

Maybe so, but I'll take a cup of soap if the quality of the steak is trash.


Not calling anyone anything, just saying.Fair enough.

It was a joke, I was talking to ROSEWOOD who loves Lil' Wayne. Notice I didn't vote for that option. And I HAVE NOT ONCE said that I thought Wayne was the wackest rapper of all time or anything along those lines. He's above average and that sadly means he's better than 90 percent of the **** on the radio. I thank him for that. I also thank him for putting in work and stepping his lyrics up. I'd never say he was the wackest rapper of all time. It was a joke, and it made me laugh.

Also, if this obvious, then votes wouldn't have been tallied for the first option. Regardless, the point was to get a better debate going. It did.

So, wasn't THAT stupid.

Also, I don't give a rats ass if people agree with me. I was curious to see the results from the people who post on here, to be honest.

alright...sounds good...i can agree on that....ha

alright...sounds good...i can agree on that....ha

Cool, we can be friends now.

Nas put out Illmatic and It Was Written while Pac was alive. Nas has always been a major player in the game.



yeah exactly. How can you say Nas wouldn't have a career if Nas rose to fame right in the middle of pac's career?

As for Jay, it was the death of biggie that cleared the lane for him.

Oh and how do you "prove greatness". Seems to me that the only way is by putting out great music. Rosewood, either you are saying that Pun's music wasn't great, or that he wasn't great because he didn't build a consensus while he was alive around the fact that he was great. I think you may believe both, but that you meant to say the second thing. I'm not the hugest Pun fan in the world but he was a great rapper.

artists that don't rely on record sales eat by doing shows and putting out quality music for fans, and a good artist will always have a fan base.


http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178569
Them artist aint eating steak though, they're living...Believe that line if you want to..$2500 three ways aint crap..

yeah exactly. How can you say Nas wouldn't have a career if Nas rose to fame right in the middle of pac's career?

As for Jay, it was the death of biggie that cleared the lane for him.

Oh and how do you "prove greatness". Seems to me that the only way is by putting out great music. Rosewood, either you are saying that Pun's music wasn't great, or that he wasn't great because he didn't build a consensus while he was alive around the fact that he was great. I think you may believe both, but that you meant to say the second thing. I'm not the hugest Pun fan in the world but he was a great rapper.
Nas wasn't jack in the Pac Era....Illmatic was made legend a few years ago...not when it first dropped..Nas changed in image to this "knowledgable" artist to get to the top..It worked for him and failed for artist such as KRS 1 & Rakim..feel me.

Nas wasn't jack in the Pac Era....Illmatic was made legend a few years ago...not when it first dropped..Nas changed in image to this "knowledgable" artist to get to the top..It worked for him and failed for artist such as KRS 1 & Rakim..feel me.

He was a platinum selling artist with Pac around.

Nas wasn't jack in the Pac Era....Illmatic was made legend a few years ago...not when it first dropped..Nas changed in image to this "knowledgable" artist to get to the top..It worked for him and failed for artist such as KRS 1 & Rakim..feel me.
Illmatic got 5 mics in The Source before it was even on shelves...

Illmatic got 5 mics in The Source before it was even on shelves...
Who the "F" is The Soucre...lol

In comparison Wayne = Steak and Shrimp Tech N9ne = Ramen noodles. But I def don't knock the hustle.

In comparison to skills and quality of music, I'd personally say it's the other way around.

Who the "F" is The Soucre...lol

back then, the Source had integrity and was fair in judgement of albums. Illmatic was HUGE when it came out, and still is. It didn't get noticed just a "few years ago". By "HUGE" I mean it's musical impact, not it's sales chart. Although I'm pretty sure it sold very well too.

He was a platinum selling artist with Pac around.

Yep, and all the more impressive because Nas didn't have a bunch of media promotion to help him, the buzz around him started on the street level. Pac wouldn't have been taken shots at him if he didn't matter, and Pac wouldn't have borrowed ideas from him if he didn't matter ("I Gave You Power", "Me And My Girlfriend").

2 is the clear answer, but #3 reigns true even if it's not the answer to the question being asked.

In comparison to skills and quality of music, I'd personally say it's the other way around.

completely agree. n9na is ****ing absurd.

2 is the clear answer, but #3 reigns true even if it's not the answer to the question being asked.

Yeah, I just thought the option sounded funny. Could be about almost anyone honestly, and it'd make me laugh.

LOL wayne is a beast,
feed him rappers or feed him beats.
He's insane he needs a shrink.
he don't even talk he let the visa speak,
and he likes his sprite easter pink....

LOL wayne is a beast,
feed him rappers or feed him beats.
He's insane he needs a shrink.
he don't even talk he let the visa speak,
and he likes his sprite easter pink....

Yeah, good argument.

so just rock rock rock with jr.......

Valid points. I guess he is the best then.

"Best rapper alive since the best rapper retired and unretired..."