With old UFC rules: no rules, for as long as it takes.

I got Gracie.

i don't.....

I got Hughes without question. More well rounded, superior conditioning, 10x more strength, better striker... In all honesty 93 Gracie had less of a chance than the Gracie that fought him in 06. All Royce ever had going for him was that he was a BJJ expert and every guy he fought more or less had no clue what BJJ was, what submissions were, and were predominantly from one style of fighting which in the early days was mainly striking.

I got Hughes without question. More well rounded, superior conditioning, 10x more strength, better striker... In all honesty 93 Gracie had less of a chance than the Gracie that fought him in 06. All Royce ever had going for him was that he was a BJJ expert and every guy he fought more or less had no clue what BJJ was, what submissions were, and were predominantly from one style of fighting which in the early days was mainly striking.



Well first, there isn't just "knowing grappling" and "not knowing grappling" there are ofcourse levels in grappling, and Gracie was at an elite level. Second , 93' Gracie was a lot younger and had the stamina that youth brings, and that brings me to the heart of the matter.

As one of his brothers said in the past, that style was designed for a no time limit, no rules scenario. In other words, it isn't about scoring points to impress a judge or a referee, it is about surviving the fight with your skill untill you find a way to win. You bring up Hughes strength and that is exactly the point, he had the strength to knock Royce out with one or two punches, but he couldn't. Royce was smiling and shaking his hand after the fight, an old Royce. In a 93' Royce against Hughes match in a situation with no time limit i.e. none of those short few minute rounds that Hughes' stamina has been conditioned to, in a fight that keeps on going no matter how long it takes untill someone submits, I would certainly favor Royce. it's not a sprint for his style, it's a marathon and Hughes is a sprinter.

Hughes is too powerful for Gracie and too skilled.

Just think if would have been Rickson instead of Royce to represent Gracie BJJ in the UFC tournaments. He would beat Hughes in my opinion.

Matt Hughes wins Via Gi Choke IMO.

As one of his brothers said in the past, that style was designed for a no time limit, no rules scenario. In other words, it isn't about scoring points to impress a judge or a referee, it is about surviving the fight with your skill untill you find a way to win.

where that is a good point you hafta remember that these matches only went the distance with other BJJ experts using very little of any other style. most of the time they were fighting BJJ only matches. Jiu Jitsu experts expend very little energy during matches when pulling off transitions- hence, one of the greatest aspects of the style itself. but since there wasn't really any true MMA at the time, somebody would be tapped out pretty quick if they took their focus away from BJJ.

MMA has evolved since then which is why Gracies can't win matches as frequently so they, in typical Gracie style, chose not to compete as frequently. if there were no time limit i do think that Royce would last longer than he did when fought Hughes and i don't think he would ever tap out. one of the 3 things would be inevitable. Royce would either:
1. get pummeled into a hamburger- corner throws in towel
2. get one of his limbs snapped and be unable to continue
3. go unconscious from being choked out

don't forget, as mentioned earlier, the 1993 Royce would be caught completely off guard with a modern MMA fighting style.

Hughes would win.

Gracie could've in fact gone to Japan and fought real competition (i.e. Pancrase) but the reality is he stuck to fighting hand-picked guys in the UFC. He was very lucky to beat Kimo, the rest of his opponents except Shamrock were garbage.

=Cptn. Howdy;3579087]where that is a good point you hafta remember that these matches only went the distance with other BJJ experts using very little of any other style. most of the time they were fighting BJJ only matches. Jiu Jitsu experts expend very little energy during matches when pulling off transitions- hence, one of the greatest aspects of the style itself. but since there wasn't really any true MMA at the time, somebody would be tapped out pretty quick if they took their focus away from BJJ.



MMA has evolved since then which is why Gracies can't win matches as frequently so they, in typical Gracie style, chose not to compete as frequently. if there were no time limit i do think that Royce would last longer than he did when fought Hughes and i don't think he would ever tap out. one of the 3 things would be inevitable. Royce would either:
1. get pummeled into a hamburger- corner throws in towel
2. get one of his limbs snapped and be unable to continue
3. go unconscious from being choked out

don't forget, as mentioned earlier, the 1993 Royce would be caught completely off guard with a modern MMA fighting style.




Well there isn't a whole lot that you can do from the ground besides juijitsu-like techniques unless you mean to refer to the few techniques from Greco-Roman wrestling that have come into the game since then. Striking from the ground existed in Brazillian juijitsu already, infact it was a crucial part of it.

I already discussed the major reason that Gracies say they don't compete in many tournaments anymore. They say the time limit and rules play against Gracie juijitsu's very strength i.e. surviving for as long as it takes untill you find a way to take the other guy out (Rorion is against the idea entirely and has said so in interviews). It is a pretty good point i think, and all the more so if you remember the gracies when they first came on the scene in the 90's. They came in claiming that their style was the best in a specific kind of situation. That situation was a no rules no time limit scenario. This ofcourse, they said, was the kind of scenario that best reflected a real life situation. Now the UFC, under political pressure, dumped it's no rules, no time limit format and took on a bunch of rules (including a time limit) imposed by an athletic commission. The Gracies, by saying that this was not the set up they signed up for, aren't saying anything different then they said 15 years ago.

Also you have to remember that the Gracies (including Royce) fought against fighters with no weight classes both in the ring and in the dojo. That means they haven't just felt power on the level of a pretty strong Welter weight like Matt Hughes, they have tangled with 250, 300 pound opponents. That is far stronger than Matt Hughes. Now one must admit that Hughes is a better combination of both strength and skill than most of those fighters were, but he faces an elite grappler in his prime who has felt enormous strength before.

I think the last two inevitable things you gave on your list are unlikely in the extreme (prime gracie getting tapped out by hughes is fanciful) but the first is quite possible. I still favor prime Royce in this scenario though but now that i think about it, maybe i should take Palma's advice and bring Rickson in instead for a more certain outcome.

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Its about what the fans want to see really and i don't think many people want to see a gracie laying on his back throwing pecking kicks to the kidnies from his gaurd for a half an hour before setting up an armbar. Its not about whether the rules are well suited to "gracie jujitsu."

And I don't buy the **** that laying on your back for a half an hour is the closest thing to a natural fight. When has a street fight ever ended up in the ****ing guard? Not that the gracies couldn't choke people out or seriously detatch them from their limbs on the street, just saying that a 30 minute Royce grapling match from the early UFCs is in no way representative of a natural street fight.

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Its about what the fans want to see really and i don't think many people want to see a gracie laying on his back throwing pecking kicks to the kidnies from his gaurd for a half an hour before setting up an armbar. Its not about whether the rules are well suited to "gracie jujitsu."

And I don't buy the **** that laying on your back for a half an hour is the closest thing to a natural fight. When has a street fight ever ended up in the ****ing guard? Not that the gracies couldn't choke people out or seriously detatch them from their limbs on the street, just saying that a 30 minute Royce grapling match from the early UFCs is in no way representative of a natural street fight.

Yeah actually i agree with you on it not necessarly being representative of a natural street fight, which was why i chose those words carefully. I said they claimed that it reflected a real life situation. Real street fights really don't follow rules.

As for whether it is about the rules suiting gracie juijitsu, well that was ofcourse why the tournament was originally introduced. It was originally just a showcase and proving ground for Gracie juijitsu partially overseen by Rorion Gracie himself, who worked with the promoter.

However, as you say, MMA has grown to become something far more than just the promotional campaign it began as.

Aside from any discussion of the gracie's I would say that the tournament is certainly less like a street fight than it was in it's earlier days. I mean for example, how realistic can it be if after a guy falls down you just have to stand there, can't stomp, kick to the head etc.
Yet to tell you the truth I don't know that a no holds barred version is good for society lol. Present MMA I guess just makes for the most exciting and moral fighting exhibition.

Well there isn't a whole lot that you can do from the ground besides juijitsu-like techniques unless you mean to refer to the few techniques from Greco-Roman wrestling that have come into the game since then. Striking from the ground existed in Brazillian juijitsu already, infact it was a crucial part of it.

I already discussed the major reason that Gracies say they don't compete in many tournaments anymore. They say the time limit and rules play against Gracie juijitsu's very strength i.e. surviving for as long as it takes untill you find a way to take the other guy out (Rorion is against the idea entirely and has said so in interviews). It is a pretty good point i think, and all the more so if you remember the gracies when they first came on the scene in the 90's. They came in claiming that their style was the best in a specific kind of situation. That situation was a no rules no time limit scenario. This ofcourse, they said, was the kind of scenario that best reflected a real life situation. Now the UFC, under political pressure, dumped it's no rules, no time limit format and took on a bunch of rules (including a time limit) imposed by an athletic commission. The Gracies, by saying that this was not the set up they signed up for, aren't saying anything different then they said 15 years ago.

Also you have to remember that the Gracies (including Royce) fought against fighters with no weight classes both in the ring and in the dojo. That means they haven't just felt power on the level of a pretty strong Welter weight like Matt Hughes, they have tangled with 250, 300 pound opponents. That is far stronger than Matt Hughes. Now one must admit that Hughes is a better combination of both strength and skill than most of those fighters were, but he faces an elite grappler in his prime who has felt enormous strength before.

I think the last two inevitable things you gave on your list are unlikely in the extreme (prime gracie getting tapped out by hughes is fanciful) but the first is quite possible. I still favor prime Royce in this scenario though but now that i think about it, maybe i should take Palma's advice and bring Rickson in instead for a more certain outcome.

keep in mind that Royce almost went out from exhaustion alone during the Kimo and Sak fights. you sink in some hooks under that situation and i'd say #3 on my list is very possible.

it is true that Royce faced off with much bigger and stronger opponents in the early days but these were fighters with very little- or no- BJJ experience and tactics at all. therefore, their strength is pretty much useless when going up against a Gracie. it only becomes a problem when a fighter (such as Hughes) is very well versed in BJJ and can now apply strength and striking effectively.

striking from the ground was important, but only as a secondary function, in BJJ as it would distract one's opponent long enough for them to open themselves up for a submission or choke. this is a VERY different situation then having somebody with Hughes' strength mount, then ground and pound you. the Gracies did not have threatening strikes.

now i see what yer sayin about the time limits, etc but i still don't buy into it as an excuse for the Gracies. why don't they set up an MMA organization that has the old rules? they've got plenty of $$$. even if they couldn't get licensed in the U.S. they could do it in most countries. it's only obvious how prideful they are of their name. this would be the obvious opportunity but you won't see them doing it because they will not win matches like they used to no matter what the rules are. now all they do is bicker and complain.

keep in mind that Royce almost went out from exhaustion alone during the Kimo and Sak fights. you sink in some hooks under that situation and i'd say #3 on my list is very possible.

it is true that Royce faced off with much bigger and stronger opponents in the early days but these were fighters with very little- or no- BJJ experience and tactics at all. therefore, their strength is pretty much useless when going up against a Gracie. it only becomes a problem when a fighter (such as Hughes) is very well versed in BJJ and can now apply strength and striking effectively.

striking from the ground was important, but only as a secondary function, in BJJ as it would distract one's opponent long enough for them to open themselves up for a submission or choke. this is a VERY different situation then having somebody with Hughes' strength mount, then ground and pound lol you. the Gracies did not have threatening strikes.

now i see what yer sayin about the time limits, etc but i still don't buy into it as an excuse for the Gracies. why don't they set up an MMA organization that has the old rules? they've got plenty of $$$. even if they couldn't get licensed in the U.S. they could do it in most countries. it's only obvious how prideful they are of their name. this would be the obvious opportunity but you won't see them doing it because they will not win matches like they used to no matter what the rules are. now all they do is bicker and complain.


lol Well they did set up a fighting contest to prove the merits of Gracie juijitsu, but I guess if they want to defend their name permenantly in the martial arts community they will have to do it endlessly (it will probably be difficult for them to even make their money back now that they have such stiff competition from so many different MMA organizations, and organizations that have much more action packed displays than they would under these rules as Organik mentioned). On the other hand, you have a point about the complaining; if your not going to do something about things there is no point in complaining.


Gracie did fight very large opponents with grappling experience in the UFc but remember that the gracie challenge predates the UFc, which is why i said they did this in the UFC and in the dojo for years.

Gracie fought sakuraba for one and a half hours, there is no way that a fighter like Hughes who has fought his whole career in 5 minute increments is going to last a fraction of that. In addition, because he is going to be trying to ground and pound, and do other things that expend stamina quickly, he really is not going to be able to run a marathon here. The actual match played to Hughes strength, and that is the short term explosion. Now Royce was indeed exhausted after the Kimo fight but uhh...he was a 6 foot 1 , 250 pound muscular fighter several times stronger than Hughes.

lol Well they did set up a fighting contest to prove the merits of Gracie juijitsu, but I guess if they want to defend their name permenantly in the martial arts community they will have to do it over and over again (it will probably be difficult for them to even make their money back now that they have such stiff competition from so many different MMA organizations, and organizations that have much more action packed displays than they would under these rules as Organik mentioned). On the other hand, you have a point about the complaining; if your not going to do something about things there is no point in complaining.


Gracie did fight very large opponents with grappling experience in the UFc but remember that the gracie challenge predates the UFc, which is why i said they did this in the UFC and in the dojo for years.

Gracie fought sakuraba for one and a half hours, there is no way that a fighter like Hughes who has fought his whole career in 5 minute intervels is going to last a fraction of that. In addition because he is going to be trying to ground and pound, and do other things that expend stamina quickly, he really is not going to be able to run a marathon here. The actual match played to Hughes strength, and that is the short term explosion. Now Royce was indeed exhausted after the Kimo fight but uhh...he was a 6 foot one 250 pound muscular fighter several times stronger than Hughes.

That fight was kinda *****-made in itself actually, as the Gracies refused to fight barring a rule change. There were basically no rules in this fight, not just no time limit, and there was one point where Royce had Saku pinned in the corner or some**** and the ref said break and Royce refused, and the Gracies all argued back. What I'm saying is they were making their own rules and reffing their fights which isn't the most honorable thing you can do. Even so, Saku beat his ass at his own game (yeah, it was a good fight), and then went on to almost beat Igor Vovchanchyn on the very same night. Saku would've earned a spot in the Grand Prix finals that night against Coleman if Igor hadn't gotten a takedown towards the end of the 15 minute round to grind out a draw, necessitating a round of overtime. Saku's peeps rightly threw in the towel.

In my mind the Gracies deserve respect as fighters but I hate guys that are so hyped up that people consider them great simply on the hype alone, not to mention that they're a bunch of whiny *****es as well. Seriously every time I hear someone in the real world say that prime Royce would run through the UFC of today I want to ****ing slap them. It is completely absurd.

That fight was kinda *****-made in itself actually, as the Gracies refused to fight barring a rule change. There were basically no rules in this fight, not just no time limit, and there was one point where Royce had Saku pinned in the corner or some**** and the ref said break and Royce refused, and the Gracies all argued back. What I'm saying is they were making their own rules and reffing their fights which isn't the most honorable thing you can do. Even so, Saku beat his ass at his own game (yeah, it was a good fight), and then went on to almost beat Igor Vovchanchyn on the very same night. Saku would've earned a spot in the Grand Prix finals that night against Coleman if Igor hadn't gotten a takedown towards the end of the 15 minute round to grind out a draw, necessitating a round of overtime. Saku's peeps rightly threw in the towel.

In my mind the Gracies deserve respect as fighters but I hate guys that are so hyped up that people consider them great simply on the hype alone, not to mention that they're a bunch of whiny *****es as well. Seriously every time I hear someone in the real world say that prime Royce would run through the UFC of today I want to ****ing slap them. It is completely absurd.

Well they would argue that the ref intervened with the natural course of the fight by stepping in.
But nah, obviously none of the Gracies would be easily running through the competition of the modern UFC no matter what the rules.