View Full Version : Is MMA a dying sport?


pesticid
05-31-2008, 03:55 PM
We lost Pride, we have a bunch of medium-to-small organizations that aren't making any money including Elite-XC, and this is why they're trying to get some short-term money from Kimbo and CBS. What Elite-XC is doing is essentially extending the youtube hype. I am not saying that Kimbo is all that bad, I am just saying that he's matched against no-hopers in order for Elite-XC to get some money from some of the very impressionate people out there.
UFC is thriving, having administered higher ppv numbers on average than both boxing and professional wrestling. That being said though, UFC seems to be the only profitable mma organization that is paying **** to their fighters. A monopoly can only last that long.

J_CON
05-31-2008, 04:01 PM
We lost Pride, we have a bunch of medium-to-small organizations that aren't making any money including Elite-XC, and this is why they're trying to get some short-term money from Kimbo and CBS. What Elite-XC is doing is essentially extending the youtube hype. I am not saying that Kimbo is all that bad, I am just saying that he's matched against no-hopers in order for Elite-XC to get some money from some of the very impressionate people out there.
UFC is thriving, having administered higher ppv numbers on average than both boxing and professional wrestling. That being said though, UFC seems to be the only profitable mma organization that is paying **** to their fighters. A monopoly can only last that long.
I think its growing.

neils7147933
05-31-2008, 04:09 PM
I think its growing.
Yes, this thread is ridiculous.

If going after a network was a last chance step that was easy, then why does every major sport try to get a network deal? I bet the NHL and Arena Football would like to be on CBS...

... and you do realize that Showtime and CBS are owned by the same parent company and the fact that Showtime made that investment is not something that a cable channel would do with a dying sport?

Or that WEC and UFC both have cable deals and are in the process of swapping talent to have distinct leagues? Or that IFL had a complete run on syndicated TV? Or that outside companies like Affliction and wealthy investors like Mark Cuban are starting to try to get into the business?

Why on earth would someone do that in a dying sport?

The last couple Strikeforce cards in San Jose have put out record gates for the city for sporting events. ESPN bought Sherdog. HBO started negotiating with UFC. UFC is pumping out regular PPVs to solid numbers and selling DVDs by the thousands. Yahoo is partnering with streaming their PPVs.

The fact that all these other organizations are fledgling makes whether or not they are initially profitable not a proper consideration - it's if they grow and have the potential to end up being profitable. And that fact that PRIDE must not have been all that profitable means that the sport can't be in any worse shape than it used to be... and with all else considered has the potential to be the exact opposite of "dying"

pesticid
05-31-2008, 04:11 PM
I think its growing.

Because of UFC numbers?

Liddel is almost done, Tito is done, Couture is done, Hughes is done, Shamrock is done, I don't know how much shelf life Franklin has.

Their two superstars right now are Silva and St. Pierre. They made a great marketing investment in Brock, hopefully he comes through for them.

J_CON
05-31-2008, 04:14 PM
Because of UFC numbers?

Liddel is almost done, Tito is done, Couture is done, Hughes is done, Shamrock is done, I don't know how much shelf life Franklin has.

Their two superstars right now are Silva and St. Pierre. They made a great marketing investment in Brock, hopefully he comes through for them.
No, because it's becoming more popular.

pesticid
05-31-2008, 04:14 PM
Yes, this thread is ridiculous.

If going after a network was a last chance step that was easy, then why does every major sport try to get a network deal? I bet the NHL and Arena Football would like to be on CBS...

... and you do realize that Showtime and CBS are owned by the same parent company and the fact that Showtime made that investment is not something that a cable channel would do with a dying sport?

Or that WEC and UFC both have cable deals and are in the process of swapping talent to have distinct leagues? Or that IFL had a complete run on syndicated TV? Or that outside companies like Affliction and wealthy investors like Mark Cuban are starting to try to get into the business?

Why on earth would someone do that in a dying sport?

The last couple Strikeforce cards in San Jose have put out record gates for the city for sporting events. ESPN bought Sherdog. HBO started negotiating with UFC. UFC is pumping out regular PPVs to solid numbers and selling DVDs by the thousands. Yahoo is partnering with streaming their PPVs.

The fact that all these other organizations are fledgling makes whether or not they are initially profitable not a proper consideration - it's if they grow and have the potential to end up being profitable. And that fact that PRIDE must not have been all that profitable means that the sport can't be in any worse shape than it used to be... and with all else considered has the potential to be the exact opposite of "dying"

You make excellent points but the fact of the matter is that only UFC has been making significant money and only in the last 3,4 years maybe.

Yeah, there is a huge interest in the sport but I don't think having different organization works for the sport in the long-term.

pesticid
05-31-2008, 04:16 PM
No, because it's becoming more popular.

You're speaking the truth it is becoming more popular and that's why it's so mind boggling to see only one organization having real success and basically monopolizing the market.

neils7147933
05-31-2008, 04:18 PM
You make excellent points but the fact of the matter is that only UFC has been making significant money and only in the last 3,4 years maybe.

Yeah, there is a huge interest in the sport but I don't think having different organization works for the sport in the long-term.
WWE's popularity dipped once ECW and WCW were no more...

pesticid
05-31-2008, 04:19 PM
WWE's popularity dipped once ECW and WCW were no more...

In the short term though.

neils7147933
05-31-2008, 04:22 PM
Because of UFC numbers?

Liddel is almost done, Tito is done, Couture is done, Hughes is done, Shamrock is done, I don't know how much shelf life Franklin has.

Their two superstars right now are Silva and St. Pierre. They made a great marketing investment in Brock, hopefully he comes through for them.
UFC PPVs don't even need superstars to put out numbers that would require a "megafight" in boxing. UFC 85 should put out solid numbers and the only "superstar" on the card is Matt Hughes, and that's a stretch here in 2008... It would be interesting to see, when that PPV's buys are released, how many of the big boxing cards from the past few years have a weaker buyrate than a tape-delayed ensemble effort from UFC.

I'm still primarily a boxing fan, though when there's nothing of interest going on, like this weekend - with no major boxing events and two huge MMA events, I follow. To use the word "dying" to describe either sport is a stretch; I wonder why everyone's in such a hurry to doom-and-gloom the sports they like well enough to join an Internet Forum dedicated to it...

neils7147933
05-31-2008, 04:22 PM
In the short term though.
Show me numbers that it has rebounded. I would argue that it hasn't.

pesticid
05-31-2008, 04:23 PM
In the short term though.

What am I thinking, I misread your post. Yes it did dip because there was no competition but do you think that UFC has any competition except for the Kimbo Slice project?

neils7147933
05-31-2008, 04:29 PM
What am I thinking, I misread your post. Yes it did dip because there was no competition but do you think that UFC has any competition except for the Kimbo Slice project?
It depends how you use the phrase "competition"

If there was no threat to Dana's empire, why worry about banning Affliction wear because of a conflict of interest? Why would people like Ortiz, Arlovski, Couture, Cro Cop, etc. be so eager to get out from under "the only show in town"

Elite XC is using Kimbo to expand MMA's fan base and draw attention to its sport. TNA wrestling did the same thing when it was without a TV deal, grabbing up any name wrestler without a WWF/E contract and putting them on the show, even though the best workers and best matches on the card featured guys no one had heard of. And by using Brock on UFC, Zuffa is showing that they're not above exploiting a green MMAer that made their name somewhere else either...

I would say Pro Elite buying up these smaller feds and willing to co-promote with companies like K-1 Strikeforce makes for a solid #2 and you could argue they have the better potential for growth...

Plus, just the fact that I've watched a Cage Rage event without having to check it out on PPV in the middle of the day on a satellite company willing to carry it in 2007 means the sport isn't dying. The exposure of the sport is expanding very, very quickly.

neils7147933
05-31-2008, 04:33 PM
It depends how you use the phrase "competition"

If there was no threat to Dana's empire, why worry about banning Affliction wear because of a conflict of interest? Why would people like Ortiz, Arlovski, Couture, Cro Cop, etc. be so eager to get out from under "the only show in town"

Elite XC is using Kimbo to expand MMA's fan base and draw attention to its sport. TNA wrestling did the same thing when it was without a TV deal, grabbing up any name wrestler without a WWF/E contract and putting them on the show, even though the best workers and best matches on the card featured guys no one had heard of. And by using Brock on UFC, Zuffa is showing that they're not above exploiting a green MMAer that made their name somewhere else either...

I would say Pro Elite buying up these smaller feds and willing to co-promote with companies like K-1 Strikeforce makes for a solid #2 and you could argue they have the better potential for growth...

Plus, just the fact that I've watched a Cage Rage event without having to check it out on PPV in the middle of the day on a satellite company willing to carry it in 2007 means the sport isn't dying. The exposure of the sport is expanding very, very quickly.
Sure, Kimbo is the main press-getter for tonight's show, but you do realize that by watching it start-to-finish, viewers are going to see a woman's match - something UFC doesn't have. They're also going to see Robbie Lawler defend his title and a likely crowd-pleaser in Baroni-Villasenor. And they're going to see a bunch of plugs for the June 14 show with KJ Noons and Jake Shields headlining, two guys who have no UFC experience.

I'd say Kimbo is a solid investment strategy

pesticid
05-31-2008, 04:38 PM
Sure, Kimbo is the main press-getter for tonight's show, but you do realize that by watching it start-to-finish, viewers are going to see a woman's match - something UFC doesn't have. They're also going to see Robbie Lawler defend his title and a likely crowd-pleaser in Baroni-Villasenor. And they're going to see a bunch of plugs for the June 14 show with KJ Noons and Jake Shields headlining, two guys who have no UFC experience.

I'd say Kimbo is a solid investment strategy

You seem like you know a lot about the industry and you make fantastic points but I don't think the sport will benefit from its ever growing popularity due to the fact that there is no comission, and mma fighters are not ranked and can't fight each other unless they are in the same org. or some one-time deal is made.

neils7147933
05-31-2008, 04:39 PM
You seem like you know a lot about the industry and you make fantastic points but I don't think the sport will benefit from its ever growing popularity due to the fact that there is no comission, and mma fighters are not ranked and can't fight each other unless they are in the same org. or some one-time deal is made.
I'm not a big fan of everything being regulated. There are things we need commissions for; sports and entertainment aren't two of them.

pesticid
05-31-2008, 04:42 PM
Btw, it took UFC 15 years to make it successful and it almost died in the process. Pride got eliminated. You think the other companies will have the same success as UFC especially now with UFC towering over them?
Like I said it took UFC 15 years with no solid competition and they almost scrapped the whole thing.

pesticid
05-31-2008, 04:45 PM
I'm not a big fan of everything being regulated. There are things we need commissions for; sports and entertainment aren't two of them.

Entertainment isn't and if that's what UFC is fine but if we talk about the sport of MMA then there's a need of a commission.

Brian13
05-31-2008, 08:22 PM
Here is the difference between Elite Xc/ Pro Elite and Zuffa

Elite Xc - founded in 2005 or some time around that time ,
Main Fighter: Kimbo Slice - a street brawler from youtube that has fought vey easy opponents,
Companies/organisations Elite Xc / Pro Elite owns: Elite Xc , Cage Rage [UK org] , Strikeforce and Sho Xc
Allows women to fight : Yes
TV broadcaster that airs events : CBS now I believe for Elite XC , Sky sports for Cage Rage and NBC for Strikeforce

Elite XC tryed to get big too quickly and look at them making huge losses

Here's UFC's version

UFC - founded in 1993
Main Fighter: Chuck Liddell - who unlike Kimbo has been in with the very best like: Randy Couture [3 times] , Tito Ortiz [twice] , Rampage Jackson [twice , 1 with Pride and 1 with UFC ] , Wanderlai Silva. And the UFC has big names in other divisions like BJ Penn , George St. Pierre , Rich Franklin , Anderson Silva and Matt Hughes , Rampage Jackson and Wanderlai Silva all guys that are most of the other main events or are always on the fight before the Main event
Companies/organisations Zuffa owns: Pride [which it disbanded] and WEC [which has all the lighter weight classes except Flyweight]
Allows women to fight : NO
TV broadcaster that airs events : ****e for UFC and Versus for the WEC

neils7147933
05-31-2008, 09:37 PM
Here is the difference between Elite Xc/ Pro Elite and Zuffa

Elite Xc - founded in 2005 or some time around that time ,
Main Fighter: Kimbo Slice - a street brawler from youtube that has fought vey easy opponents,
Companies/organisations Elite Xc / Pro Elite owns: Elite Xc , Cage Rage [UK org] , Strikeforce and Sho Xc
Allows women to fight : Yes
TV broadcaster that airs events : CBS now I believe for Elite XC , Sky sports for Cage Rage and NBC for Strikeforce

Elite XC tryed to get big too quickly and look at them making huge losses

Here's UFC's version

UFC - founded in 1993
Main Fighter: Chuck Liddell - who unlike Kimbo has been in with the very best like: Randy Couture [3 times] , Tito Ortiz [twice] , Rampage Jackson [twice , 1 with Pride and 1 with UFC ] , Wanderlai Silva. And the UFC has big names in other divisions like BJ Penn , George St. Pierre , Rich Franklin , Anderson Silva and Matt Hughes , Rampage Jackson and Wanderlai Silva all guys that are most of the other main events or are always on the fight before the Main event
Companies/organisations Zuffa owns: Pride [which it disbanded] and WEC [which has all the lighter weight classes except Flyweight]
Allows women to fight : NO
TV broadcaster that airs events : ****e for UFC and Versus for the WEC
Don't forget that Showtime has a 3 year deal with EliteXC and that includes any co-promoted events they are putting on. UFC didn't get a cable deal til a few years back.

And EliteXC/Pro Elite is building with names like Jake Shields who is legit MMA Top 10 in his weight class, upstart sensation Cung Le, Bigfoot Silva, former big UFC names like Nick Diaz, Frank & Ken Shamrock

If EliteXC had WEC caliber fighters with their limited resumes, I'd be more worried about them...

pesticid
05-31-2008, 09:47 PM
I am yet to watch a Kimbo fight live and I am a general fan. I may catch a gif here of a ko or smth but will not watch the card simply cause it's garbage. I had to endure that Dlh vs Forbes sparring session but I did that cause I am hardcore boxing junkie and I need to have ammunition for debates. This Kimbo has the promise of being a worse match-up than the DLH vs Forbes sparring session.

neils7147933
05-31-2008, 09:49 PM
I am yet to watch a Kimbo fight live and I am a general fan. I may catch a gif here of a ko or smth but will not watch the card simply cause it's garbage. I had to endure that Dlh vs Forbes sparring session but I did that cause I am hardcore boxing junkie and I need to have ammunition for debates. This Kimbo has the promise of being a worse match-up than the DLH vs Forbes sparring session.
The Kimbo fight will end quickly, but Smith vs. Lawler and Baroni vs. Villasenor will be good TV...

That's the thing about MMA I like - it's a whole card being sold usually because the fights are so much shorter.

You also missed some really nice Knockouts on the Tank Abbott/Kimbo undercard

pesticid
05-31-2008, 09:59 PM
The Kimbo fight will end quickly, but Smith vs. Lawler and Baroni vs. Villasenor will be good TV...

That's the thing about MMA I like - it's a whole card being sold usually because the fights are so much shorter.

You also missed some really nice Knockouts on the Tank Abbott/Kimbo undercard

I've seen Baroni highlights, I like him, the arrogance too. How bad of a dog is Villasenor. You stirred my enthusiasm a bit I can't lie.