For all the people who say "he hasn't fought anybody." The famous book The Art of War states "A great fighter not only wins, but excels at winning with ease."

Lets take a look at Roy's career and highlights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Jones,_Jr.

- former world welterweight champion Jorge Vaca with 1st KO.

- unbelievable combinations against the best fighter he had ever faced at the time Percy Harris (including 4 left hooks in under a second)

- KOed

- UD against a prime hall of famer Bernard Hopkins with a broken right hand

- KOed Thomas Tate in 2 rounds. The same man who went 12 rounds with hard punching Julian Jackson.

- had the fastest KO in super middleweight history against Antonie Byrd.

- TKOed Tony Thornton with a 20 to 30 punch combo.

- become the first athlete to compete in two paid professional sporting events in one day. Played semi-pro basketball, then KOed future world champion Eric Lucas in round 11.

- KOed the toughest man in boxing at the time "chin of stone" Merqui Sosa in round two.

- KOed former lightweight and junior middleweight champion Vinny Pazienza in round six. including a round where he went the whole round without getting him. That doesn't happen in professional boxing.

- UD against a crafty veteran hall of famer Mike McCallum. I know many of you are saying McCallum was 39, but he is one of those fighters that aren't defined by age, because he fights with his brain, like Bernard Hopkins.

- revenged his first professional loss against Montell Griffin with a stunning 1st round KO.

- KOed Virgil Hill with a single body shot.

- KOed former middleweight champion Otis Grant in 10 rounds.

- knocks down light heavyweight champion Reggie Johnson in the 1st minute of the fight. A fighter who had never been floored before.

- totally outclassing David Telesco, a top light heavy, with a fractured left wrist.

- UD against future world champion Julio César González.

- # 1 contender and undefeated Glen Kelly with legendary Jeff Fenech, gets dominated then KOed with a "no hands" knockout.

- #1 contender and former IBF champion Clinton Woods gets battered for 6 rounds by get KOed. Tarver had to work hard to win a 12 round decision.

- Roy becomes the 1st former middleweight champion to win a legimate heavyweight title in 106 years. Some people say it was a hand picked fight. Even if it was,
Ruiz was the 1st hispanic heavyweight champion who won his title by beating Evander Holyfield twice, including a KO. I mean the man KOed Holyfield, that deserves some respect. And Roy made it look so easy, hitting him at will, and making him miss. When Roy got hit, he looked at Ruiz like "thats all you got."

- made even more history by coming back down to light heavyweight by losing over 20 lbs of muscle to beat Tarver while being extremely dehydrated.

to be continued ....

he fought some great opopnets, its the opponets he refused to fight that makes him look bad, followed by being ko'd, and thinking, what if he had fought the fighters he didn't want to fight, what if they landed on Roy? hmmm

OK .... McClellan .... he beat Roy in the amateurs, but look at his performances against Julian Jackson and Nigel Benn. Roy by UD or TKO. And by the way, Roy would KO Jackson, and probably split decision or UD Benn, although Jones vs. Benn at Super Middleweight would be interesting.

Dariusz who .... Roy by TKO

Jones vs Hopkins II in 2002, Roy by UD

Jones vs Trinidad in 2002, Roy by TKO or UD

some people might think i'm crazy but look at how Lennox Lewis looked against Klitschko. Even Jim Lampley from HBO said he thought Roy could beat Lewis the way he looked in his last fight.

Roy would have KOed or TKOed Chris Byrd.

Roy would have TKOed Tyson in 2003

Roy would have UD Holyfield.

who else???

look at this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=qRpl-LsH2qM

also how could forget he destroyed the pound 4 pound best fighter in boxing at that time James Toney in 1994. Roy was considered the underdog.

- UD against a prime hall of famer Bernard Hopkins with a broken right hand

Neither fighter was in their prime. Hopkins had been active as a pro for 3 years and hadn't fought any top opposition.

- KOed former lightweight and junior middleweight champion Vinny Pazienza in round six. including a round where he went the whole round without getting him. That doesn't happen in professional boxing.

He wasn't hit because he was fighting a former lightweight champion of the world who had no intentions to actually win the fight, just to go the distance.

Even Kelly Pavlik went a round without getting hit against a grossly overmatched opponent.

- UD against a crafty veteran hall of famer Mike McCallum. I know many of you are saying McCallum was 39, but he is one of those fighters that aren't defined by age, because he fights with his brain, like Bernard Hopkins.

I guess McCallum in his prime (which was in the LMW division, not the LHW division) would've lost to Fabrice Tiozzo like he did right before facing Roy Jones.

- knocks down light heavyweight champion Reggie Johnson in the 1st minute of the fight. A fighter who had never been floored before.

Except two times.

- #1 contender and former IBF champion Clinton Woods gets battered for 6 rounds by get KOed. Tarver had to work hard to win a 12 round decision.


If you think working a heavy bag (which Clinton Woods was against Tarver) is hard work in your opinion then yes.

probably split decision or UD Benn, although Jones vs. Benn at Super Middleweight would be interesting.

So he would beat all those other guys easily (even KO Chris Byrd, something 250 lb heavyweights have trouble doing) but he can barely win a decision over Nigel Benn of all people? :ugh:

Saying it doesn't matter whether he fought those guys or not because he would beat them is an excuse. IMO he could beat them but it's not set in stone.

Your man Roy Jones had flaws and he could be beaten. Griffin, Tarver and Johnson (prime or not) all had success against Jones because they put him on the ropes and outworked him. He also did not like fighting southpaws.

Prime Jones could more than make up for that but to think he would have any success against someone like Lennox Lewis... :nonono:
Even the Lewis who fought Vitali landed some bombs on Vitali that would've put Roy Jones to sleep.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ft05fq3kcXE

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1KxTfWUfFZ0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ms2Zo86NDaY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eOzO6D9stnQ

EDIT: Also Gerald McClellan defeated Roy Jones in the amateurs by putting him against the ropes and outworking him.

had the fastest KO in super middleweight history against Antonie Byrd.

Calzaghe has this with a 112 second Knockout of Mario Veit.

Roy is the man.

Roy was amazing in his prime and has a good argument for being the best pound for pound fighter in the world for 10 years straight 1993-2003.

Its true that the critics at times may have had De La Hoya and Mosley ahead, but for me, Roy was the man!

Mayweather has been great for the last few years, but hes never been quite as electric as Jones, I think its because Floyd throws fewer combinations.

Neither fighter was in their prime. Hopkins had been active as a pro for 3 years and hadn't fought any top opposition.



He wasn't hit because he was fighting a former lightweight champion of the world who had no intentions to actually win the fight, just to go the distance.

Even Kelly Pavlik went a round without getting hit against a grossly overmatched opponent.



I guess McCallum in his prime (which was in the LMW division, not the LHW division) would've lost to Fabrice Tiozzo like he did right before facing Roy Jones.



Except two times.



If you think working a heavy bag (which Clinton Woods was against Tarver) is hard work in your opinion then yes.



So he would beat all those other guys easily (even KO Chris Byrd, something 250 lb heavyweights have trouble doing) but he can barely win a decision over Nigel Benn of all people? :ugh:

Saying it doesn't matter whether he fought those guys or not because he would beat them is an excuse. IMO he could beat them but it's not set in stone.

Your man Roy Jones had flaws and he could be beaten. Griffin, Tarver and Johnson (prime or not) all had success against Jones because they put him on the ropes and outworked him. He also did not like fighting southpaws.

Prime Jones could more than make up for that but to think he would have any success against someone like Lennox Lewis... :nonono:
Even the Lewis who fought Vitali landed some bombs on Vitali that would've put Roy Jones to sleep.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ft05fq3kcXE

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1KxTfWUfFZ0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ms2Zo86NDaY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eOzO6D9stnQ

EDIT: Also Gerald McClellan defeated Roy Jones in the amateurs by putting him against the ropes and outworking him.


For some reason, Jones has a following that makes people believe he can do anything. People have him stopping all time great heavyweights, outpointing Ali, etc. He was beatable at any weight he fought at, as is any fighter.

Neither fighter was in their prime. Hopkins had been active as a pro for 3 years and hadn't fought any top opposition.



He wasn't hit because he was fighting a former lightweight champion of the world who had no intentions to actually win the fight, just to go the distance.

Even Kelly Pavlik went a round without getting hit against a grossly overmatched opponent.



I guess McCallum in his prime (which was in the LMW division, not the LHW division) would've lost to Fabrice Tiozzo like he did right before facing Roy Jones.



Except two times.



If you think working a heavy bag (which Clinton Woods was against Tarver) is hard work in your opinion then yes.



So he would beat all those other guys easily (even KO Chris Byrd, something 250 lb heavyweights have trouble doing) but he can barely win a decision over Nigel Benn of all people? :ugh:

Saying it doesn't matter whether he fought those guys or not because he would beat them is an excuse. IMO he could beat them but it's not set in stone.

Your man Roy Jones had flaws and he could be beaten. Griffin, Tarver and Johnson (prime or not) all had success against Jones because they put him on the ropes and outworked him. He also did not like fighting southpaws.

Prime Jones could more than make up for that but to think he would have any success against someone like Lennox Lewis... :nonono:
Even the Lewis who fought Vitali landed some bombs on Vitali that would've put Roy Jones to sleep.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ft05fq3kcXE

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1KxTfWUfFZ0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ms2Zo86NDaY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eOzO6D9stnQ

EDIT: Also Gerald McClellan defeated Roy Jones in the amateurs by putting him against the ropes and outworking him.


yeah a lot of that **** wasn't accurate.. and he didnt KO eric Lucas... it was stopped on cuts.

For all the people who say "he hasn't fought anybody." The famous book The Art of War states "A great fighter not only wins, but excels at winning with ease."

Lets take a look at Roy's career and highlights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Jones,_Jr.

- former world welterweight champion Jorge Vaca with 1st KO.

- unbelievable combinations against the best fighter he had ever faced at the time Percy Harris (including 4 left hooks in under a second)

- KOed

- UD against a prime hall of famer Bernard Hopkins with a broken right hand

- KOed Thomas Tate in 2 rounds. The same man who went 12 rounds with hard punching Julian Jackson.

- had the fastest KO in super middleweight history against Antonie Byrd.

- TKOed Tony Thornton with a 20 to 30 punch combo.

- become the first athlete to compete in two paid professional sporting events in one day. Played semi-pro basketball, then KOed future world champion Eric Lucas in round 11.

- KOed the toughest man in boxing at the time "chin of stone" Merqui Sosa in round two.

- KOed former lightweight and junior middleweight champion Vinny Pazienza in round six. including a round where he went the whole round without getting him. That doesn't happen in professional boxing.

- UD against a crafty veteran hall of famer Mike McCallum. I know many of you are saying McCallum was 39, but he is one of those fighters that aren't defined by age, because he fights with his brain, like Bernard Hopkins.

- revenged his first professional loss against Montell Griffin with a stunning 1st round KO.

- KOed Virgil Hill with a single body shot.

- KOed former middleweight champion Otis Grant in 10 rounds.

- knocks down light heavyweight champion Reggie Johnson in the 1st minute of the fight. A fighter who had never been floored before.

- totally outclassing David Telesco, a top light heavy, with a fractured left wrist.

- UD against future world champion Julio César González.

- # 1 contender and undefeated Glen Kelly with legendary Jeff Fenech, gets dominated then KOed with a "no hands" knockout.

- #1 contender and former IBF champion Clinton Woods gets battered for 6 rounds by get KOed. Tarver had to work hard to win a 12 round decision.

- Roy becomes the 1st former middleweight champion to win a legimate heavyweight title in 106 years. Some people say it was a hand picked fight. Even if it was,
Ruiz was the 1st hispanic heavyweight champion who won his title by beating Evander Holyfield twice, including a KO. I mean the man KOed Holyfield, that deserves some respect. And Roy made it look so easy, hitting him at will, and making him miss. When Roy got hit, he looked at Ruiz like "thats all you got."

- made even more history by coming back down to light heavyweight by losing over 20 lbs of muscle to beat Tarver while being extremely dehydrated.

to be continued ....

man

1) be accurate

2) dont make ridiculous claims on fights which did not happen

by failing on 1) and 2) you are giving more fuel to haters

Let's put things in perspective here, Jones is not and never will be superman but he is one of the greatest fighters ever period. His loss against griffin was a stupid mistake by him and he avenged it in style, the other losses to tarver and johnson were only a result of him dropping back down from heavyweight which really affected him. Jones could of beat both of them on the same night.

Am I saying he is unbeatable, No far from it, but give the man credit he had everything and his achievments won't be matched for a very long time.

Let's put things in perspective here, Jones is not and never will be superman but he is one of the greatest fighters ever period. His loss against griffin was a stupid mistake by him and he avenged it in style, the other losses to tarver and johnson were only a result of him dropping back down from heavyweight which really affected him. Jones could of beat both of them on the same night.

Am I saying he is unbeatable, No far from it, but give the man credit he had everything and his achievments won't be matched for a very long time.

Don't forget that Roy was also 35 years old when he lost to Tarver and Johnson, and at that point his exceptional speed and reflexes had slowed enough to get caught. Neither of those guys would have touched him 5 years earlier.

Don't forget that Roy was also 35 years old when he lost to Tarver and Johnson, and at that point his exceptional speed and reflexes had slowed enough to get caught. Neither of those guys would have touched him 5 years earlier.

THANK YOU, SOMEBODY WITH A BRAIN!

For some reason, Jones has a following that makes people believe he can do anything. People have him stopping all time great heavyweights, outpointing Ali, etc. He was beatable at any weight he fought at, as is any fighter.
wel said,i know a lot of americans worship this guy,but i wouldnt put him in my p4p top 20!!

a lots made of the multi weight champion thing and dont get me wrong im a fan, but for me the hype outweighs the man he didnt impress me at LHW(tarver,johnson etc)and the heavyweight thing was a joke

he roided up to take on a (just above average) heavyweight and yes he clearly won but it was one guy!

at SMW and MW he is undoubtedly great,a great modern day fighter but an all time p4p great,naahhhh
----------------------------------------------

IM NOT A HATER,JUST A REALIST.

Roy is one of my all time favorites no doubt a guy that size with that speed was incredible, but like was said he could have been beaten if he fought the guys he didnt but he didnt so no need to argue about it. Why does everyone have to go over the top one way or the other (Hes a bum, he could beat any fighter who ever lived etc.) I dont think he would have gotten beaten in his prime if he stayed at 175 or under but to consider him a legitimate heavyweight is a bit ridiculous. I think Byrd and Holyfield he would have given trouble but a giant like Bowe,Lewis,Klitschko would have taken him apart there are weight divisions for a reason. I also very seiously doubt he could have ever beaten Tyson, Tyson has fast hands would put him on the ropes and throw combos all Roy could do would be to cover up. I consider him an ATG but there have been dozens of heavyweights since Roy turned pro who would have destroyed him.

Yeah he definately did NOT fight a Prime Hopkins, that's for sure, but if you ask me I think if they did fight in their primes Roy still would have won fairly easy, especially if it was in like 2002 during the infamous "60/40" argument.

Calzaghe has this with a 112 second Knockout of Mario Veit.

it was at that time!

When Roy was cheated at the Olympics he was quoted as saying," he wasn't going to let the judges take another fight away from him." He lived up to that and then .... He saw what happened to G. Mac. I believe after he saw what happened to G Mac he became a little gun-shy. To say Griffin gave Roy a tough fight is ridiculous. Go to boxingrec and look him up. He has some good quality wins and Jones was playing with him until he got disqualified. We all wanted to see what would happen if he gave a fight his all. Well, he fvckin destroyed Griffin. Roy was an amazing fighter, even the haters have to give him that. He did things that weren't supposed to be done. As far as being on the ropes if you watch his fights, in his prime, he would throw combo flurries off the ropes. He was a good inside fighter: hooks and uppercuts off the ropes. He had the greatest potential and we really only got to see bits and pieces, flashes of what could have been a top 3 fighter all-time.

To say Griffin gave Roy a tough fight is ridiculous. Go to boxingrec and look him up. He has some good quality wins and Jones was playing with him until he got disqualified. We all wanted to see what would happen if he gave a fight his all. Well, he fvckin destroyed Griffin.

Playing with him?
I'm sure he willingly took about 20 looping left hooks flush on his face... No, Jones did not 'play' with Griffin, he did what he usually does in his fights.

It did not work very well against the crafty Griffin who had studied RJJ's style, so in their rematch Roy changed up his usual, cautious counter punching style, came out more aggressive, walked through Griffin's punches and threw wide punches hoping to catch Griffin early.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ft05fq3kcXE
Jones vs Griffin I

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eqV6FgjrqPI
Jones vs Griffin II

What if Roy Jones came out that way against, for example, Gerald McClellan or Julian Jackson?

Look at the punches Jones takes when coming in at 1:00 in the Griffin rematch and imagine them coming from a power puncher. What worked against an unorthodox and experienced but also a chinny and relatively feather-fisted 5'7 opponent would not necessarily work against different opponents.

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Yes I said "playing with him". Take this into account. Griffin took him 9 rounds and it was a pretty good fight. Roy Jones was in what I call Roy Jones cruise control. Letting the fight happen so to speak. Think back to when he fought Richard Hall. You think he could've knocked Hall out sooner than the 11th? Absolutely. Do I think he could've took Griffin out much sooner. Absolutely. Now in the second fight, Roy took it out of cruise control, put his foot on the gas, and almost decapitated Griffin. He blew him out in 1 round. The same fighter you say was giving him all kinds of trouble in the previous fight. It was no luck he took him out. Roy Jones allowed a lot of his opponents to stick around longer in their fights. Hence Griffin.

Funny people want to talk about who roy didnt fight....But what about who other legends didnt fight. Duran didnt fight Arguello, skipped right by Pryor. Leonard didnt fight cuevas, palimino..By the way Leonard is my favorite fighter of all time. Hagler did not move up and face anyone ever, and his greatest wins where vs welters who moved up. Hearns could have faced jackson, Nunn, McCallum etc...

These are the great four that always gets respect of fighting everyone.

Roy is not my favorite, but he would have destroyed everyone one of these fighters at middleweight. DESTROYED! Leonard himself said that they (the great 4) where very very lucky that Roy didnt fight during their reign as he was soo strong, fast and awkward, would have posed serious threats.

Norma first you. You have to be insane to think the Roy can beat lewis or Tyson. Not a chance. I think roy is pound per pound one the best ever but he would get destroyed by a young Holyfield, a prime Tyson and any version of Lewis.

Now for the idiot on here that thinks that Griffin really caused Roy problems that Roy did not allow to happen. You can see through out the fight that roy simply was not trying. He was playing with him not moving. He actualy was effortlessly falling back into the ropes so that he could counter instead of using his legs and amazing boxing abilties like he used vs Toney etc... How about the later rounds when Roy started winning, and then the round Roy dropped him and unfortunately lost his cool. Roy was starting to handle Griffen easily.

Hmmm how about the rematch!!!!

Now for the idiot on here that thinks that Griffin really caused Roy problems that Roy did not allow to happen. You can see through out the fight that roy simply was not trying. He was playing with him not moving. He actualy was effortlessly falling back into the ropes so that he could counter instead of using his legs and amazing boxing abilties like he used vs Toney etc... How about the later rounds when Roy started winning, and then the round Roy dropped him and unfortunately lost his cool. Roy was starting to handle Griffen easily.

The problem here is that Jones did the same thing against Toney, Hopkins and others as well.

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What is he doing here against Toney? Throwing a short feint jab and laying on the ropes.
The difference here is that Toney is not working at all even when Jones is against the ropes, he was too gassed. Amazing because he had only thrown about 300 punches.

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What is he doing here against Hopkins? Laying on the ropes and getting tagged for it.

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What is Jones doing here against Vinny freakin' Pazienza? Laying on the ropes again.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r6d0WOk-QuU
Same here against the wild and ineffective Bryant Brannon.

He could do this against most of his opponents but Griffin came into the fight with a well thought-out gameplan and should be given more credit for it. Roy lost his cool because he was being frustrated.

Jones figured Griffin out, yes, he figured out that he could simply walk through Griffin's punches which did not have much power behind them.
Roy Jones is a smart fighter and came out like an animal in the rematch but that kind of wild aggression would not necessarily work against all fighters.

It's as if 'that Roy' for some people would decapitate all fighters from MW to LHW although it's not the kind of a style what Roy is really about.
He can't go in there and walk through, for example, Bob Foster's punches...

The problem here is that Jones did the same thing against Toney, Hopkins and others as well.

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What is he doing here against Toney? Throwing a short feint jab and laying on the ropes.
The difference here is that Toney is not working at all even when Jones is against the ropes, he was too gassed. Amazing because he had only thrown about 300 punches.

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What is he doing here against Hopkins? Laying on the ropes and getting tagged for it.

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What is Jones doing here against Vinny freakin' Pazienza? Laying on the ropes again.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r6d0WOk-QuU
Same here against the wild and ineffective Bryant Brannon.

He could do this against most of his opponents but Griffin came into the fight with a well thought-out gameplan and should be given more credit for it. Roy lost his cool because he was being frustrated.

Jones figured Griffin out, yes, he figured out that he could simply walk through Griffin's punches which did not have much power behind them.
Roy Jones is a smart fighter and came out like an animal in the rematch but that kind of wild aggression would not necessarily work against all fighters.

It's as if 'that Roy' for some people would decapitate all fighters from MW to LHW although it's not the kind of a style what Roy is really about.
He can't go in there and walk through, for example, Bob Foster's punches...


dude captures titles in 160,168,175, and heavyweight.. holds p4p title for 10 yrs.. and the guy still dindt do enough to satisfy you.. :nonono:

Some of you guys are really working hard to discredit Jones...

lol @ throwing a feint jab and "laying" against the ropes. What kind of a punch did he knock those boxers down with? Jones will be on everyone's top 20 p4p after they have enough time to look back and appreciate his style and skill and power.

Some of you guys are really working hard to discredit Jones...

lol @ throwing a feint jab and "laying" against the ropes. What kind of a punch did he knock those boxers down with? Jones will be on everyone's top 20 p4p after they have enough time to look back and appreciate his style and skill and power.

Hes (TheManchine) not trying to discredit anything, he simply saying that Jones is not unbeatable and that many people overrate him. Which i agree with. We all know that Jones is a great fighter and one of the most skilled. However, i would favor a bunch of middleweights and light heavyweights from the past over him. I would give Hagler, Hearns(even at middleweight), Peak in shape Toney, Peak Hopkins and Gerald MCcellann(who beat Jones in the amatuers) good shots at beating him.

These people always discredit greats. Ali was discredited, Michael Jordan, and now Roy Jones. I was also for a while targeting those who he did not fight however after being at a junior golden gloves tournament a couple of years ago and talking with Dundee he made me accept he the truth, and analyze who Roy DID fight.

When I compare Roy to Leonard etc...He is faster, stronger, gets hit less, easily beat very good opponents, when Ray struggled, and get this, Ray Leonard is my favorite fighter off all time, but I have to be honest, if Ray fought Jones it would be murder.

Roy jones is the most naturally gifted fighter since Robinson. He was faster at Middleweight than leonard was a welter. He had more power pound per pound than Leonard had. Leonard said himself that he and the rest of the big 4 where lucky they did not fight in the same era as Roy based his speed, power, and awkwardness.

As for Tommy hearns, what a joke vs Roy Jones. He got ko'd at Welter by Leonard, how can you even put your fingers to a keyboard and think he could beat Roy at Middleweight. Just who did he beat at middleweight and above. Wasnt his greating win vs Cuevas, and then a overblown Duran, and had a draw (should have won_) vs a shot Leonard. Come on people get real. Hearns had glass jaw, and had he fougth a bigger faster stronger vs of leoanrd who had much faster counters, Wow...this would not have even been a fight.

Hagler would get embarrassed. He was not shot when he faced leonard. He was only 32. Had just ko'd his best 3 opponentns, had not lost in 10 years. Hagler simply was not used to dealing with speed and movement. He struggled vs Antefermo the first time, and then Duran in 83. Roy would destroy Hagler. EASILY....

At Middleweight Roy was simply devastating. he easily beat Hopkins, and Toney, and this was when he used his foot movment angles, and speed to keep his back off the ropes. That version is the version I am talking about, not the version that started becoming bored with boxing and played basketball before hand, would lay on the ropes and purposelly take punches so that the fight would be more interesting for the fans. Hell you saw what happened when he wanted to really go after someone. In the first Griffen fight he lay on the ropes fought lazily, didnt really try until later in the fight, and then was whipping Griffen across the ring, dropped him and had him hurt until he made a stupid mistake. What happened in the return fight?

He did actually lose until he had to deal with removing 30 pounds of muscle and also he was 35, all of this together was too much for body and he did not retain his great instinct, speed etc. Yes he failed to utilize many basic traits but so what. He did not have too, he was soo fast that he did not have to throw a jab, he simply countered in a split second. His counters set up his punches, vs a jab like dlh and leonard used. It was more effective.

The machine, Roy layed against the ropes because he could. He played with Griffen, looke what happened when he wanted to destroy him?

You pick out faults on Roy that did not even become an issue until he was over 35. Hmm how about Ali's faults lack of great power, no body punching, pull his head back from punches. Duran faults, could not deal with movement, droppped his head when he charged in and was easily hit by hooks and upper cuts and ray showed in round 5-7 in montreal and all of New Orleans, just imagine if Duran fought vs Mayweather or Jones like that he would have never won vs them. Hearns had a glass jaw, got hit with Rights, Hagler struggled vs boxers, speed, etc.

Point is everyone has some *****s, but Roy in his peak willingly went the ropes because he became bored with how easy he could beat even great fighters.

Slick south paw...come on your kidding me....hearns has not chance beating roy...None...he got hurt by leonard at welter, got stopped by hagler, and barkly. Who great has he beat at THEIR PEAK? Hopkins was 22-1 when the fought, Roy beat him with one hand. What a joke. As for Toney, Toney did not win a single round. NOT ONE ROUND.

Either you are a Jones hater, or simply blind to the facts. How can you say a fighter who fought when they were 44-0-1 at their peak and champion...and you simply discredit that fight and say "well if Jones fougth him at his peak or in shape" Come on. they fought, Roy moved up to him, and he did not win a single round.

NUFF SAID!

As for Tommy hearns, what a joke vs Roy Jones. He got ko'd at Welter by Leonard, how can you even put your fingers to a keyboard and think he could beat Roy at Middleweight. Just who did he beat at middleweight and above. Wasnt his greating win vs Cuevas, and then a overblown Duran, and had a draw (should have won_) vs a shot Leonard. Come on people get real. Hearns had glass jaw, and had he fougth a bigger faster stronger vs of leoanrd who had much faster counters, Wow...this would not have even been a fight.


You make a lot of excuses for Jones, but fail to be fair towards Hagler, Hearns ect. You are also ignoring the key points in Hearns/Jones. When and i repeat when, has Roy jones brought the fight to a power puncher and didn't box cautiously? Never, he has always boxed carefully against fighter whom he respected and anyone beating Hearns in a technical battle is something that has never had and also something that i couldn't see happen. Hearns had a longer reach ( by four inches to be exact), was the better out boxer, better technique, more accurate puncher and had reflexes of his own. Straight punches and consistant jabs are the key to speed fighters. Revisit Barrera vs Hamed or Forrest vs Mosley if you want an idea. Hearns had the ability to negate Jones's game by the keeping the fight on the outside and countering effectively timing Jones on the way in. Despite Hopkins and Toney not being at their best, both had success in spurts doing it. That is why me and many other observers gives Toney and Hopkins on their besy day a shot at upsetting Jones. In fact, the Hopkins that beat Glen Johnson and John David jackson would give Jones nightmares.

Like i have said before (which you ignored as well as many other of my points) Leonard, Barkely and Hagler are all great inside fighters and turned puncher to get Hearns out. if jones stayed on the inside against Hearns, then he would be giving making the fight easier, becuase that is the only way that he will win. We can be fans of Jones and imagine that he would do something but I actually go by what i seen happen and what is there. Fact is that Jones was a very green fighter at middleweight and the only name fighter that he beat was Bernard Hopkins, who was as green as he was. nothing indicates that he would stand a chance against Hagler or Hearns. Hagler would really be a horrible style for Jones. He would get on the inside and rough Jones up. Jones didn't like it ugly and Hagler would get in there. The the first round against Hearns, the first thing on Hagler's mind was to go to the body. He has too much skill, too much raw natural ability and too much toughest for Jones even on his best day. Roy has never recieved the kind of heat that he would get if he faced a prime marvin Hagler. Its seems like you have only seen him against leonard and Duran becuase they are the only fights that you talk about. You need to revisit Hagler. Peak Hagler was a lot more elusive, mobile, had better foot work and was faster than the version in his later days. He didn't get a shot at a title until he was heading over the hill. There is a strong possibility that we never got a chance to see Marvin at his very best.

Slick south paw...come on your kidding me....hearns has not chance beating roy...None...he got hurt by leonard at welter, got stopped by hagler, and barkly. Who great has he beat at THEIR PEAK? Hopkins was 22-1 when the fought, Roy beat him with one hand. What a joke. As for Toney, Toney did not win a single round. NOT ONE ROUND.

Either you are a Jones hater, or simply blind to the facts. How can you say a fighter who fought when they were 44-0-1 at their peak and champion...and you simply discredit that fight and say "well if Jones fougth him at his peak or in shape" Come on. they fought, Roy moved up to him, and he did not win a single round.

NUFF SAID!

Interesting, I actually have different articles that are discussing Toney's weight problems. Would you want me to provide the links? Toney weighed in at 214 2 weeks before fight night and had to be hospitalized and hooked up to Ivs so he wouldn't pass out. Do you want to tell me that Toney was at his best again? Give me a break

What success did Toney and Hopkins have vs Roy....Toney lost every single round. Hagler...yes the same hagler who lost 2 fights earlier, the same hagler that fought a draw with Anetfermo..the same hagler that barely beat a blown up lightweight at the end of their career,the same hagler that lost to a welterweight that had only 1 fight in 5 years, and he was only 32, well rested. Your talking about that Hagler right?


As for you tryin to educate me about about how a jab beats speed, save it, cuz that is what I have been preaching all along,,,,Forrest Mosley. Hearns leanard. I agree with that. However Hearns used his jab vs Leonard didnt he? What happened in rounds 6-7, 13 and 14. Whenever Ray wanted to attack Hearns off of counters...I repeat...Off of Counters then he did and was very successful.

You talk about how Ray took it to fighters, yes he did, but he also moved much much more than Roy did. In fact Ray was on his bicycle more than any current fighter. Roy never ran from fighters. and his counters would eat Hearns alive. I am not sure what your looking at but Leonard himself has said Roy awkwardness would have posed major major major problems for the big 4. Dundee himself said Roy was a better fighter than most thought,and has beaten better opposition than most greats..... He also said he would not favor any of of the great 4 vs Jones. Roberto Duran said it was murder fighting Jones at Middleweight. He told Pazienza not to even think about it.

You simply don't know boxing if you believe Toney and hopkins could beat him and discredit how easily Roy beat them. Very wishful thinking. I repeat Toney did not win a round. Not one single Round. You say roy was green, but he was a middleweight when he MOVED UP and beat Toney. Check your facts, and there were other champions that he beat at middleweight, who had held their belt.

I was like you too once upon a time, doubting roy etc. But that conversation with Dundee and then looking at his fights, and comparing his success's etc to those of others...Roy is a all time great, and should be ranked up there with Leonard, as leonard struggled with fighters that Roy would have toyed with on a pound per pound basis. Leonard allowed a lightweight to move up and beat him, hmmmmm. Roy moved up and beat a heavyweight champion. Roy Campaigned at 168 and 175. Leonard may have been able to campaign at 154 and 160 effectively but he didnt, due to retirment. Leonard (who is my favorit of all time) only beat older fighters at the hgher weights, and pretty much (like hagler and hearns) chose not to fight the Julian jacksosn, Nunn's, McCallum's. They got their name off of fighting each other. Which is not bad and is better than others can say, but the truth is Leonard and Hearns never beat any top fighters (Hearns did beat Hill,,,Roy stopped him with a body punch) at the higher weight classes except for Ray SD over hagler. Roy easily beat campaigned and beat the champions of 160 168 an 175, Did Ray and hearns and Hagler have tha type of success moving up?

Southpaw I never said Toney didnt have weight issues, but so did Duran, so did Roy, so did many fighters. That is no excuse now is it? Toney was a professsional of 45 fights at that time, if we make excuses for him then we have to for everyone. Roy moved up to a weight class he was not accustomed too, didnt he?

The point is they stepped in the ring, and Toney got destroyed...easily, didnt in a round.

What success did Toney and Hopkins have vs Roy....Toney lost every single round. Hagler...yes the same hagler who lost 2 fights earlier, the same hagler that fought a draw with Anetfermo..the same hagler that barely beat a blown up lightweight at the end of their career,the same hagler that lost to a welterweight that had only 1 fight in 5 years, and he was only 32, well rested. Your talking about that Hagler right?

No offense, but your acting as if age is an indicator of how a fighter should perform in boxing is nothing more than laughable. We can go through plenty of fighters that were old in boxing at an early age. Look at Duran, Hagler, Ali, Jones, Robinson ectetra. All was past it when they were in their middle 30s and down. When you have a fighter such as these whom have such great stamina and work ethic ( on top of all of the punches taken and weight drain), they could very well become burned out in training alone. You have to maintain hard training to be conditioned as well as these atheltes. Take Floyd Mayweather for example. He has barely taken any punishment throughout his entire career, but yet he is past his prime. Notice his foot movement, jab and reflexes when he was at super feather to lightweight? All have slowed down and he is no longer at his best. Why? Becuase all of the amature fights and all of the hard training that he does is taking their toll on him. Its the same with Hagler. He has all of those fights before he was recognized by the public and we all see how hard he trains. Do you seriously believe that he was in his prime against Duran or Leonard? Please, many boxing anaylist that have i talked to belives that Hagler's prime ended in the 1970s, before he became recognized.

Also, i scored 3 rounds for Toney. Jones cleary won the fight, however Toney made the fight interesting when he had the energy to fight. He had the perfect game plan. Feints, hooks to the body, counter punches and lead right hands (which Jones was vulnerable to). Imagine if Jones tangled with the in shape energetic version of James Toney that fought Iran Barkely? When Toney could keep up the pace and fight for every round. We probably wouldn't be having this discussion right now. You complain about Jones being weight drained against Tarver and Johnson, but never mentions Toney? A fighter that actually had to be hospitalized before the contest? Your facts are what needs to be checked.


As for you tryin to educate me about about how a jab beats speed, save it, cuz that is what I have been preaching all along,,,,Forrest Mosley. Hearns leanard. I agree with that. However Hearns used his jab vs Leonard didnt he? What happened in rounds 6-7, 13 and 14. Whenever Ray wanted to attack Hearns off of counters...I repeat...Off of Counters then he did and was very successful.

What happened in rounds 6-7 and 13-14 against Leonard? Hearns fadded and Ray was able to capitalize on it. Because he was being easily out pointed from a distance and when he would get on the inside earlier, then he would catch counter jabs and hard right hands from Hearns. I hate to sound unreasonable here, but that was the point in which Hearns had his stamina. Leonard was easily being out boxed.

You talk about how Ray took it to fighters, yes he did, but he also moved much much more than Roy did. In fact Ray was on his bicycle more than any current fighter. Roy never ran from fighters. and his counters would eat Hearns alive. I am not sure what your looking at but Leonard himself has said Roy awkwardness would have posed major major major problems for the big 4. Dundee himself said Roy was a better fighter than most thought,and has beaten better opposition than most greats..... He also said he would not favor any of of the great 4 vs Jones. Roberto Duran said it was murder fighting Jones at Middleweight. He told Pazienza not to even think about it.


When have you ever seen Hearns countered in a technical battle? He was extremely technically correct and i really didn't see a single flaw, other than his questionable chin and stamina. Jones would be the one who would be countered becuase he actually has defensive flaws which are flaws that Hearns could capitalize on. Look at all of the technical fighters that Jones struggled with and that no one mentions. Eric Harding, Lou Dell Valle and Griffin. They were all counter punchers that gave Jones hard fights. You really need to revisit some of these fighters.

Also, this is a debate. Its good that Leonard has his opinion, but i have mine as well and don't agree with him. I see Ray Robinson beating Jones as well. He had the chin and the ability to bring educated pressure and get to Jones, the way he did to Randy Turpin in the rematch. He knew that he couldn't out box him becuase Turpin's style gave him fits, so he brought the fight to him and stopped him. Great fighters have the ability to adjust and create game plans that will work better.

You simply don't know boxing if you believe Toney and hopkins could beat him and discredit how easily Roy beat them. Very wishful thinking. I repeat Toney did not win a round. Not one single Round. You say roy was green, but he was a middleweight when he MOVED UP and beat Toney. Check your facts, and there were other champions that he beat at middleweight, who had held their belt.

You mean, i simply have an opinion that you don't agree with. Thats fine, but many people will agree that you need to rethink some of your last posts. Your underestimation of Hagler and Hearns leave me to think if you have seen any other fight besides at their worst.

Also yes, Jones beat another title holder and middleweight but you have to look at who he is. The great Thomas Tate? I worry if thats your indication of anything.

I wouldn't be worked up with the last part of your post. I read it and you showed your lack of knowledge on Hagler and disrepect towards him. I am seriously wondering if you have seen any fight of him when he was actually in his prime and not just looking on Boxrec or youtube highlights. The man was fantastic and could do it all. Out box his opponent, out brawl his opponent out smart his opponents ectera.

I also don't understand where you think that i am a Jones hater, in fact he is one of my favorites. Hes one of the best fighters to watch and had eye catching talent, but I need to see something that indicates weather or not that fighter would beat all time greats like Hagler and Hearns and Jones has not shown that. He has never been seriously pressured when he was in his prime and he also has not had to dig down deep to win a fight. Both things that he will have to do against the greats.
[/QUOTE]

Also Wpink, if you want to pick out flaws from different fighters, then you might wanna take a look at this video. I read in an article that after this fight, Jones stated that he never wanted to face a southpaw again. Dell Valle is a southpaw, decent ability, ok handspeed however, he was never a major player in any division. What if that was Hagler (an ELITE versitale southpaw) that had Jones knees buckled like that? Jones has struggled with every southpaw that he has faced. See Jones Harding, Jones Dell Valle and the Tarver/Jones series. All southpaws that troubled Jones. Neither fighter could hold a candle to a prime Marvin Hagler.

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Also Wpink, if you want to pick out flaws from different fighters, then you might wanna take a look at this video. I read in article that after this fight, Jones stated that he never wanted to face a southpaw against. Dell Valle is a southpaw, decent ability, ok handspeed however, he was never a major player in any division. What if that was Hagler ( a versitale southpaw) that had Jones knees buckled like that?

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that was a slip, a clear slip, ive watched it over and over and over, u can tell when hes stepping out his footing misses

that was a slip, a clear slip, ive watched it over and over and over, u can tell when hes stepping out his footing misses

thats a ****ty video of it, they mustve taken down the replay one from different angles

look how he fell? its unbelievably obvious.... he got hit, stood there... and then literally looked like his footing missed and he fell

thats a ****ty video of it, they mustve taken down the replay one from different angles

look how he fell? its unbelievably obvious.... he got hit, stood there... and then literally looked like his footing missed and he fell

Jim Lamply's words ''Roy Jones cleanly knocked down by a left hand from Lou Dell Valle''. His feet were in place and when he was hit, you could see his legs buckle and the sweet flying off of his face. He got up and boxed carefully for the entire fight. He was also embarrassed as well. My question is, why would he be embarrassed if he knew that he only slipped? I give Jones credit though, he got up from the first knock down in his career and seemed to handle it. Would have been bad if he had a finisher in there though.

Jim Lamply's words ''Roy Jones cleanly knocked down by a left hand from Lou Dell Valle''. His feet were in place and when he was hit, you could see his legs buckle and the sweet flying off of his face. He got up and boxed carefully for the entire fight. He was also embarrassed as well. My question is, why would he be embarrassed if he knew that he only slipped? I give Jones credit though, he got up from the first knock down in his career and seemed to handle it. Would have been bad if he had a finisher in there.

Jim Lampley is calling that on the fly... and he DID get hit... but his footing got misplaced, its unbelievably obvious when you watch the way he moves his back foot and then just falls.... hes embarassed cuz he got hit and knows he went down, its a legitimate knockdown whether he slipped or not, because he did get hit... but he didnt go down because of that punch

how come i only catch you EVER talking negative on roy?

Jim Lampley is calling that on the fly... and he DID get hit... but his footing got misplaced, its unbelievably obvious when you watch the way he moves his back foot and then just falls.... hes embarassed cuz he got hit and knows he went down, its a legitimate knockdown whether he slipped or not, because he did get hit... but he didnt go down because of that punch

how come i only catch you EVER talking negative on roy?

I have to agree with reed here. I watched this fight a few days ago and the replay clearly showed that he was hit, then he stepped back lost his footing and fell. The punch didnt put him down really, he lost footing.

Jim Lampley is calling that on the fly... and he DID get hit... but his footing got misplaced, its unbelievably obvious when you watch the way he moves his back foot and then just falls.... hes embarassed cuz he got hit and knows he went down, its a legitimate knockdown whether he slipped or not, because he did get hit... but he didnt go down because of that punch

how come i only catch you EVER talking negative on roy?

I have posts here and many threads on east-side boxing.com and other sites about Jones and his skills. The fact that people overrate him is what gets to me. They discribe him to be unbeatable and the kinds of post that i see about him beating true heavyweights is just insane. Prime Tyson, Lennox Lewis? Muhammad Ali? Its frustrating.

I have posts here and many threads on east-side boxing.com and other sites about Jones and his skills. The fact that people overrate him is what gets to me. They discribe him to be unbeatable and the kinds of post that i see about him beating true heavyweights is just insane. Prime Tyson, Lennox Lewis? Muhammad Ali? Its frustrating.

well, he wouldnt be beating those fighters...

Sorry fellas, even though I am arguing for Roy on this thread, the knock down was legit. You dont always get knocked down in the same manner. leoanrd when he got knocked down by hearns in the 2nd fight, the first time, went down in a delayed manner as well.

If look closely roy was on unsteady feet when he got up, falling back into the ropes. He was cleanly dropped, cleanly and you have never heard roy even try to argue the point, have you?

No offense, but your acting as if age is an indicator of how a fighter should perform in boxing is nothing more than laughable. We can go through plenty of fighters that were old in boxing at an early age. Look at Duran, Hagler, Ali, Jones, Robinson ectetra. All was past it when they were in their middle 30s and down. When you have a fighter such as these whom have such great stamina and work ethic ( on top of all of the punches taken and weight drain), they could very well become burned out in training alone. You have to maintain hard training to be conditioned as well as these atheltes. Take Floyd Mayweather for example. He has barely taken any punishment throughout his entire career, but yet he is past his prime. Notice his foot movement, jab and reflexes when he was at super feather to lightweight? All have slowed down and he is no longer at his best. Why? Becuase all of the amature fights and all of the hard training that he does is taking their toll on him. Its the same with Hagler. He has all of those fights before he was recognized by the public and we all see how hard he trains. Do you seriously believe that he was in his prime against Duran or Leonard? Please, many boxing anaylist that have i talked to belives that Hagler's prime ended in the 1970s, before he became recognized.

Wow..... First off Hagler fought the same style early in his career when he tried to be a boxer first, when he lost several fights early on, and lost to Antefermo, then when he was boxed virtually to a standstill against Duran. I am not saying Hagler did not have some slippage in speed in 87, nor am I saying that he was the same fighter he was in 83 when he faced leoanrd. What I am saying is that he was still not a shot fighter, and he was active and unbeaten in 10 years, just beat his best 3 opponents he ever faced, and faced a welter weight who was out of boxing except for 1 fight in the last 5 years, and he was beaten. I also ask you to point out who great that was a solid natural middlweigh or above that was great did hagler beat? His best opposition was fighters that moved up to him...Mugabi, hearns, Duran, leoanard. Not to knock him as he was one of my favorites, but we do overrate the big four, because of their wars amongst each other, and do not give other fighters in other eras their just due.

Hagler never beat a fighter near the style or skills of a Jones, Jones beat Hopkings and Toney who arguable are every bit the fighter that hagler was. Hopkins best wins vs Trinidad and DLH mirrors Haglers best wins, hearns and Duran (dlh and duran both moved up from lower weights, trinidad & hearns from welterweight). Hopkins held the title for a decade so did Hagler, I believe Hopkins broke Hagler record of defenses. Hopkins also beat winky and tarver..active fighters..when he was relativly inactive. Hagler lost to a inactive Welter.

Also you are smoking regarding Toney. We dont have to imagine anything my friend. They fought. We dont have to imagine we can look at the tape. You say Toney had the perfect game plan, what weed are you on, I would love to package it and sell it. Your the only person in America that gave him 3 rounds. At that, on your card he lost 9-3 on most everyone elses it was 11-1 or 12-0. Your continuing to debate that fight, causes you to lose major credibility. Get over it, we dont have to imagine they fought in peak years.

Also I dont make excuses for Roy. I spit the facts. Roy lost 30 pounds of muscle to reach weight and still won that fight. Roy was 36 years old before he lost a fight with out is being a dq.

Your aruging off of opinion and I am giving you facts,and I am not a Roy Jones fan. I was where you are be4, but the fact is he is a alltime great. If you stop being biased, as I am often in favor of leonard, then you will see there is no comparison. Look at how many former, current, or future world champions Roy beat..EASILY. How many fights 50+ wins and campaigning at heavier weights vs champions, vs 36 wins and a great initial career, then after Hagler cherry picked older fighters until he got his ass handed to him by Norris.

What happened in rounds 6-7 and 13-14 against Leonard? Hearns fadded and Ray was able to capitalize on it. Because he was being easily out pointed from a distance and when he would get on the inside earlier, then he would catch counter jabs and hard right hands from Hearns. I hate to sound unreasonable here, but that was the point in which Hearns had his stamina. Leonard was easily being out boxed.

Round 6 Hearns was not Tired...Yes hearns used a great jab...but leonard GAME PLAN was to let Hearns shot his wad early (get the sports illustrated the week before the fight in 81) and not get caught with anything big, then come on. Ray tried to come onin round 3 and 4. Ray landed good shots in those rounds, good counters. Look at it, howeve hearns came on at the end of round 4 with some blistering punches of his own...Then round 6...Hearns was not tired, Ray did not hunt him down, it was a counter that caught him. I REPEAT A COUNTER... In fact Ray was off balance, and through a half left hook upper cut that caught Hearns.. A COUNTER!!!

Now if anyone saw Jones, the speed of his counters and power and precision was 10X that of Leonards on his best day. Again I love Leonard, but he did not have the hand speed or counters or power of Jones. Leonard based is offense of movement, the jab, putting punches together. Roy pretty much was more economical. He was more effective right in front of you countering your jab with a super quick left hook and a over hand right...(which hurt Hearns in the 13rd round ..and no Hearns was not faded then either. Another false myth. Hearn had just had his best round in the 12th, and was winning the 13th until Ray caught him with a Right,,,at the very moment announcers were saying leonard is looking desperate....)

Hearns had a very good jab & great right hand, but Leonard did not initially brawl or stalk hearns, it was AFTER a great counter got Hearns in trouble in round 6 when he was fresh and winning. 13th, Leonad was more visably worn out than Hearns and wose losing the 13th round when he got caught. I suggest you get your facts str8, my friend. I know that fight like the back of my hand. I even saw a interview with leoanrd saying he was completley shot, and could not mount an attack for those rounds he was not punching. Hearns also said in the Jan 82 addition of the Ring, that he was not tired, and had no issues making weight, he simply got caught.

[QUOTE]You mean, i simply have an opinion that you don't agree with. Thats fine, but many people will agree that you need to rethink some of your last posts. Your underestimation of Hagler and Hearns leave me to think if you have seen any other fight besides at their worst.

Also yes, Jones beat another title holder and middleweight but you have to look at who he is. The great Thomas Tate? I worry if thats your indication of anything.

I wouldn't be worked up with the last part of your post. I read it and you showed your lack of knowledge on Hagler and disrepect towards him. I am seriously wondering if you have seen any fight of him when he was actually in his prime and not just looking on Boxrec or youtube highlights. The man was fantastic and could do it all. Out box his opponent, out brawl his opponent out smart his opponents ectera. [QUOTE]

First off I dont base my decisions off of youtube. I go to fights, boxed myself, and have the tapes. Thanx, and actually spoke directly with Dundee about Roy Jones.

I love Hagler style. I again think that that era embodied true greats. However just llike latest dont mean the greatest, neither does just becasue they beat up on each other with great fights, mean they are the greatest. A simple exam will show our biased towards those fighters.


Hagler beat what top great at middleweight who was a natural middleweight...
How many loses did Hagler have before the leonard fight,
Did Hagler ever take the challenges by the light heavy's at the time.
Did Hagler ever "in fact" do anythign that Hopkins did not do?
Duran what was his record vs top fighters that he moved up and faced all before the age of 34...compare this to other fighters as they move up..hmmm
Hearns what top great did he ever beat at their peak...in age and weight....Hmmmm
Leoanrd beat more truly elite fighters than the rest of these fighters, but how many defenes did he have.
Did he every face a young great fighter at 160 and above?
Did he Hearns and hagler have an opportunity to fight Nunn, McCallum, toney, etc. and chose
to fight only the senior tour?

Now compare that to what Roy has done...... and how easily he did it. No there where not any Leonards, haglers, and Durans...but I Roy beat several great fighters easily and a lot of other champions at 160,168,175. Then won at heavyweight.

Finally, I hear that many talk about who roy didnt face, well how about who leonard, hearns, and Hagler colletivly didnt face. How about the fighters above middleweight that Roy did face, and compare that to the exploits above their natural weight Leoanrd, hagler and hearns did....Hmmmmmm

Finally your point about mayweather....Mayweather is much heavier now at 147 than at 130 and 135, so that is why you dont see the flurries, combinations, and unwillngness to exchange toe to toe. Look at Ali when he got heavier, Leonad as he moved up to Kalule, Mosley as he moved up (for the most part he abandoned the rapid fire combinations too except for Dlh 1st fight, and Vargas,,,but now we know he used steriords too).

i hate this thread... the thread starter made a lot of errors in his post...

RJJ is such a good fighter people have to pull out all kinds of obscure stories and statistics to try and argue against him. I'd rather people grossly overrate Jones than pull up some sob story about Toney being hooked up to an IV to make weight (he shouldn't of fought, and that shouldn't discredit what Jones did to him). What were Toney's words after the fight?

"He was the better man tonight"

Lets not start speaking for professional boxers, they can do that themselves.

RJJ is such a good fighter people have to pull out all kinds of obscure stories and statistics to try and argue against him. I'd rather people grossly overrate Jones than pull up some sob story about Toney being hooked up to an IV to make weight (he shouldn't of fought, and that shouldn't discredit what Jones did to him). What were Toney's words after the fight?

"He was the better man tonight"

Lets not start speaking for professional boxers, they can do that themselves.

How anyone can gather that Toney can beat Jones after that clear and easy of a beating, and much worse..much much worse for anyone to say Toney had an effective and correct game plan in that fight, a fight where he won at most on most peoples scorecards...1-2 rounds...Wow...... I have heard it all.

How anyone can gather that Toney can beat Jones after that clear and easy of a beating, and much worse..much much worse for anyone to say Toney had an effective and correct game plan in that fight, a fight where he won at most on most peoples scorecards...1-2 rounds...Wow...... I have heard it all.

lol

I'm finding that posters on this forum would rather come off as delusional fan boys than honest observers of the sport...

MWMerlino....ha ha.