I watched the joe frazier trilogy, foreman fight, and then his last ones. I felt sick in the stomach watching the larry holmes fight, because ali was an ill man, I dont have a clue how he got licensed.

Heres the question though... what was the last fight Ali fought at 100% natural health?

In my opinion even during the last frazier fight I could already see the puffy/slightly blank eyes and that he didnt have full control of his body, it was already weakening. This is quite obvious to me because he looked like a bobble head toy, where as normal guys can move their head sharply, Alis head just bounced around, and he count move it away from anything remotely resembeling a punch.

I see a lot of knowledgeble boxing people on this side of the forum (as opposed to the non stop boxing side:) so please..


Your views...

It was after the third Frazier fight that the illness really came on, i believe.

ive seen interviews in later years
wat is his illness?

He was never the same after the third Frazier fight. In fact, they were both never the same.

If you listen to the Ali of the sixties and compare to the later version I think you would be able to tell the difference in the speech around the first Spinks fight.

Regarding the Holmes fight: I have read that Ali was on some medication so he was completely exhausted after round 1. He took the medication and he wouldnt let his doctors see what it was. I believe it was some kind of weight-reduction tablets although I'm not sure.

ive seen interviews in later years
wat is his illness?
Parkinson. Makes you shake your body uncontrolled nonstop and affects your speech.

If you listen to the Ali of the sixties and compare to the later version I think you would be able to tell the difference in the speech around the first Spinks fight.

Regarding the Holmes fight: I have read that Ali was on some medication so he was completely exhausted after round 1. He took the medication and he wouldnt let his doctors see what it was. I believe it was some kind of weight-reduction tablets although I'm not sure.

They were Thyroid pills that a doctor prescribed to him the week of the fight, he said before he got the pills, he was running 5-7 miles a day and was set a record for his exercise repetitions, after he got the pills, he said he couldn't run a mile and was very lethargic when training. One of Ali's cornerman said that Ali wasn't sweating during the fight.

Thrid Frazier fight was the one that sent him tumbling. I also believe the Earnie Shavers fight played a part.

I've already posted something about this on another similar thread but i think the third Frazier fight possibly set the Parkinsons syndrome in motion. He was in perfect health on the run up to the fight, I've got a documentary on the Fight and he was witty, fast talking.........no signs of the syndrome at all.

his punch accuracy that night was spectacular, even in round 14 but he shipped some sickening left hooks in rounds five and six. The temperature that night was ridiculously high and Ali himself said that round ten was the closest he ever came to death. In the post fight interview Ali said that the fight was 'too painful' 'I might have a heart attack or something, I just wanna quit while I'm on top'.......he didn't!!

Alis doctor Ferdie Pacheco said it took Ali hours to rehydrate after the fight.

Ali was not the same guy come the very next year (1976) and in the buildup to the third Norton fight, his speach was noticeably different.......dont get me wrong he could still speak quickly and be entertaining but for the hardcore Ali fan...like myself, his motor skills had just started to drop, he also occasionally had a dead expression about his eyes like he was in a trance that I'd never seen before.

After the first Spinks loss it was more than obvious that this was not the same guy, his speech was noticeably slower and he looked positively rigid turning to the camera and saying with a clenched fist 'I will return'. Finally, after the Berbick fight in 1981 the difference between Ali in the buildup and Ali in the post fight interview was very clear, he was very difficult to understand, definately an ill man. Check it out, the DVD 'The drama in bahama' Amazon.com is a very interesting watch.....although very sad!

Perhaps if he had stopped fighting back in 1975 his symptoms would not have progressed further, remember he is not a Parkinson's Disease sufferer, only a sufferer of the Syndrome, which indicates that the symptons are brought about rather than inherited/hereditory. that said he is much worse now than in the early 80s or in the video 'Champions Forever' circa 1988 so who knows?

If you listen to the Ali of the sixties and compare to the later version I think you would be able to tell the difference in the speech around the first Spinks fight.

Regarding the Holmes fight: I have read that Ali was on some medication so he was completely exhausted after round 1. He took the medication and he wouldnt let his doctors see what it was. I believe it was some kind of weight-reduction tablets although I'm not sure.

It as pills to make him look like he was in shape, but they make you tierd really easy. I heard that on a documentary i have about him in DVD

They were Thyroid pills that a doctor prescribed to him the week of the fight, he said before he got the pills, he was running 5-7 miles a day and was set a record for his exercise repetitions, after he got the pills, he said he couldn't run a mile and was very lethargic when training. One of Ali's cornerman said that Ali wasn't sweating during the fight.
Thanks for that and you're right. I can remember also that Ali weighed in extremely light for that fight at least well below expectations.

Heres the question though... what was the last fight Ali fought at 100% natural health?


** It's pretty obvious he was never the same after the Foreman fight.

Truth be told, you could make a case that he was never the same after the second rd of first Norton fight. He really had no business fighting Foreman, but conditions came together perfectly for him and against Foreman in Zaire. Even so, he hit the deck seconds after the ref waved off the fight it was that close for him.

Go look at the Wepner fight afterwards and try and make a case to somebody who is just starting to watch boxing that's a HOFer at work. Could barely break the breeze after these fights, becoming more dependent on his new legendary status and the gifts by refs and judges. Specifically a 32% KO ratio from Norton 1 forward.

His best fights as far as having the best combination of talent/skills against best level competition are Terrell and Frazier 1. 1972 was probably his best year ever as far with 6 first rate wins over first rate comp. Then 73 came and he didn't look very good against Bugner, Norton or even Lubbers.

Ali had every right to face Foreman, He'd just reversed the decisions to Norton and Frazier ( although the Norton fight was close ) and still was beat to the title shot by Norton, Ali should have met Foreman in 1973.

It is true 1972 was a good year for Ali, I'd favour the 72 Ali over the 71 Frazier........Ali didn't have his legs for the first fight with Frazier but he was nearly as swift as his peak a year and a half later. Check out the second Jerry Quarry match in 72, Ali was awesome!

I would say that Ali was still pretty good in 74, the second Frazier fight...although full of clinches was full of dancing and fast multipunch combinations by Ali, certainly one of his best performances of the 70s.

I will always wonder what the result of the Foreman fight would be if it wasn't staged in Africa, there is something odd about Foreman that night, I like to think that Ali would have taken a decision....rather like Young did by stealing later rounds, but the KO result does still strike me as odd because no one else managed it with George and Ali was one of the lighter punching Heavyweight champions. Foreman looked so tired, so early that night!

Ali had every right to face Foreman, He'd just reversed the decisions to Norton and Frazier ( although the Norton fight was close ) and still was beat to the title shot by Norton, Ali should have met Foreman in 1973.

It is true 1972 was a good year for Ali, I'd favour the 72 Ali over the 71 Frazier........Ali didn't have his legs for the first fight with Frazier but he was nearly as swift as his peak a year and a half later. Check out the second Jerry Quarry match in 72, Ali was awesome!

I would say that Ali was still pretty good in 74, the second Frazier fight...although full of clinches was full of dancing and fast multipunch combinations by Ali, certainly one of his best performances of the 70s.

I will always wonder what the result of the Foreman fight would be if it wasn't staged in Africa, there is something odd about Foreman that night, I like to think that Ali would have taken a decision....rather like Young did by stealing later rounds, but the KO result does still strike me as odd because no one else managed it with George and Ali was one of the lighter punching Heavyweight champions. Foreman looked so tired, so early that night!

It's all a credit to Ali, really. It was what it was. Foreman punched himself out, Ali put together a great combo that hit George flush on the chin. I really don't like any other theory about it.