On the back of yesterday's good-natured flame thread (don't mistake it), I want to get some views from some of you about where hip hop is situated historically as well as musically. I am particularly interested in what res has to say about this, since he seems pretty well-informed about music more generally.

There are some facile generalizations in the hip hop literature, regarding the origins of hip hop in "tribal African music." For instance, Hip Hop Magazagine once published this article, which I think failed to fulfill its promise in accounting for "the roots of hip hop": http://www.globaldarkness.com/articles/roots_of_hiphop.htm


For the record, neither blues nor jazz are tribal musics, but both are essentially intercultural phenomena. This discussion belongs elsewhere. Historically there are a few instances in which African folk music were infused into the American (and European-influenced) genres of jazz and blues, but these are 1) minor and 2) apparently irrelevant to the origin of hip hop.


I understand, though I'm probably wrong, hip hop as a descendant of both "talking blues" and "fusion." The latter was more directly influential, though the former bears a closer analogy. The excellent fusion bands of the late 60's to mid 70's regressed into a more pop-ish phenomenon that can be called "funk." Oddly enough it's the jazz elements that disappeared first (you can follow the career of Herbie Han**** from his days with Miles to the 80's to follow the changes here), and only the rock elements remained, these improved through more interesting uses of rhythm. Industrialize the rest of the music, keep it as simple as possible, and add some "talking blues" without the "blues" and you have it.

Is this too simple? Do tell me.

So I make a serious thread and you mother****ers have nothing to say?

On the back of yesterday's good-natured flame thread (don't mistake it), I want to get some views from some of you about where hip hop is situated historically as well as musically. I am particularly interested in what res has to say about this, since he seems pretty well-informed about music more generally.

There are some facile generalizations in the hip hop literature, regarding the origins of hip hop in "tribal African music." For instance, Hip Hop Magazagine once published this article, which I think failed to fulfill its promise in accounting for "the roots of hip hop": http://www.globaldarkness.com/articles/roots_of_hiphop.htm


For the record, neither blues nor jazz are tribal musics, but both are essentially intercultural phenomena. This discussion belongs elsewhere. Historically there are a few instances in which African folk music were infused into the American (and European-influenced) genres of jazz and blues, but these are 1) minor and 2) apparently irrelevant to the origin of hip hop.


I understand, though I'm probably wrong, hip hop as a descendant of both "talking blues" and "fusion." The latter was more directly influential, though the former bears a closer analogy. The excellent fusion bands of the late 60's to mid 70's regressed into a more pop-ish phenomenon that can be called "funk." Oddly enough it's the jazz elements that disappeared first (you can follow the career of Herbie Han**** from his days with Miles to the 80's to follow the changes here), and only the rock elements remained, these improved through more interesting uses of rhythm. Industrialize the rest of the music, keep it as simple as possible, and add some "talking blues" without the "blues" and you have it.

Is this too simple? Do tell me.




The idea of ancient African roots for Hip Hop is romantic but i would say inaccurate except in the following sense. Hip Hop is rhythmically based, and the strong affinity for rhythm in Black American culture was passed down from African origins and preserved through centuries of social segregation that also allowed Black culture to develop along a different course in general.
the develoment of Hip Hop was more or less an accident. In the 1970's, House Parties and Block parties that emulated the disco trend popular at the time began to break out all over inner city neighborhoods in New York. D.J.s who controlled the music became big celebrities in this world and were in local demand all over. These parties also featured party hosts or M.C.s . The M.C.s were first very much like normal party M.C. but gradually they became more showy, exhorting the party goers to dance and enjoy themselves in inventive ryhming phrases. these phrases gradually became more and more complex and the M.C. became more a part of the party structure untill emcees were in demand just like D.J.s. You see rap didn't begin as a noun, it began as a verb, as something that was simply done at parties to enhance the mood. It was an old R&B producer that finally came up with the unusal idea to actually record rapping, to sell what went on at these parties to interested listeners. She got a group together eventually known as The Sugar Hill Gang and they had an international hit with a song called Rapper's Delight. The musical character of Rap was dictated by the type of music it first dealt with, this includes Disco, Soul and Funk. Hip Hop purists of the time however preferred Soul over the Pop sounding Disco music, and James Brown was the most popular item. Jazz later on was introduced into the fray, as you had rappers more interested in conveying that sort of mood. Rakim (who is also a saxophonist) was among the most important popularizers of this style of rap. The song on the link below is an excellent example of this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jplgk1pR1M8


Other such artists include the group A Tribe Called Quest and Digable Planets.

Note the difference between this Jazz mood and the Soul mood found in an artist like Big Daddy Kane.

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Blues influenced Rap indirectly as integrated into Rhythm and Blues, or perhaps directly if one prefers the interpretation that sees Rhythm and Blues not as a distinct genre, but simply as the faster paced strains of blues music (which it certainly began as).

Good **** res. I suppose I was way off.

There are a lot of jazz and fusion albums from the 70's that have some apparent relation to some later hip hop movements, but I guess historically you're right.