Im curious to know what people think about this. Duran was a beast at lightweight and could do everything, and so could Evander. Holyfield at cruiserweight was like machine that never stopped coming.

Who do you think was better at their prime weights???

I think Duran was a complete fighter at lightweight, defense, offense, everything a fighter could do he did at lightweight. Holyfield's defense cruiserweight wasn't all that good.

I think Duran was a complete fighter at lightweight, defense, offense, everything a fighter could do he did at lightweight. Holyfield's defense cruiserweight wasn't all that good.

I agree. Duran was better overall. He really didn't have many flaws at lightweight, and looked nearly unbeatable there.

Holyfield may have been the best Cruiserweight ever though. But i've seen him have trouble with a motivated Qawi, he may have even lost that first fight. It was close, and Holyfield didn't stick to his game plan as well as he should have. But that's just Holyfield, he's always been like this.

I'd go for Duran in this one.

Duran.
All day.

I agree. Duran was better overall. He really didn't have many flaws at lightweight, and looked nearly unbeatable there.

Holyfield may have been the best Cruiserweight ever though. But i've seen him have trouble with a motivated Qawi, he may have even lost that first fight. It was close, and Holyfield didn't stick to his game plan as well as he should have. But that's just Holyfield, he's always been like this.

I'd go for Duran in this one.

I can't argue with that. But you have to consider the fact that Holyfield was undefeated at cruiser weight and fought the better line of fighters in my opinion. Duran lost to Esteban De Jesus by UD and was out on feet from a left hook.

Evander unified the cruiser weight titles and beating, Qawi, and sugar De Le leon is pretty impressive when you think about the few fights that he had. Holyfield was 17-0 when he beat Carlos De Leon and 11-0 when he beat Qawi the first time.

Don't get me wrong, Duran was one of the greatest lightweights of all time but this is hard for me to choose. Duran did some great things at lightweight as well.

I can't argue with that. But you have to consider the fact that Holyfield was undefeated at cruiser weight and fought the better line of fighters in my opinion. Duran lost to Esteban De Jesus by UD and was out on feet from a left hook.

Evander unified the cruiser weight titles and beating, Qawi, and sugar De Le leon is pretty impressive when you think about the few fights that he had. Holyfield was 17-0 when he beat Carlos De Leon and 11-0 when he beat Qawi the first time.

Don't get me wrong, Duran was one of the greatest lightweights of all time but this is hard for me to choose. Duran did some great things at lightweight as well.

You could make an argument for Qawi winning their first fight, it was very close.

Duran was very green when he fought De Jesus the first time and if it weren't for Duran, De Jesus would have reigned as lightweight king for a long time.

This is a bizarre question unless you meant head to head, in which case Holyfield would likely have won. Any other kind of comparison has to be mightily in Duran's favor.

You could make an argument for Qawi winning their first fight, it was very close.

Duran was very green when he fought De Jesus the first time and if it weren't for Duran, De Jesus would have reigned as lightweight king for a long time.

Duran was green? Then what was Holyfield? lol. Evander only had 11 professional fights when he and Qawi fought the first time and had only been a professional for 2 years, pretty impressive. Plus he won the fight. Duran lost a UD to De Jesus, was dropped and badly hurt.

Duran had already had 31 fights at the time that he fought Esteban De Jesus and was the WBA lightweight champion so i wouldn't say he was green.

Duran was green? Then what was Holyfield? lol. Evander only had 11 professional fights when he and Qawi fought the first time and had only been a professional for 2 years, pretty impressive. Plus he won the fight. Duran lost a UD to De Jesus, was dropped and badly hurt.

Duran had already had 31 fights at the time that he fought Esteban De Jesus and was the WBA lightweight champion so i wouldn't say he was green.

He had very little amateur experience though. Holyfield had 11 pro fights but was an accomplished amateur and got a medal at the Olympics, they were both green but Duran was more so.

He had very little amateur experience though. Holyfield had 11 pro fights but was an accomplished amateur and got a medal at the Olympics, they were both green but Duran was more so.

Duran had already became champion and had defeated Ken Buchanan 5 months earlier so i don't see how he was green. I don't think that there should be any excuses for Duran, he lost fair and square and had 31 professional fights.

There are plenty of fighters that had NO amateur experience and still went on to reach greatness.

Holyfield fought limited opposition before he defeated Qawi so he was very green.

Duran had already became champion and had defeated Ken Buchanan 5 months earlier so i don't see how he was green. I don't think that there should be any excuses for Duran, he lost fair and square and had 31 professional fights.

There are plenty of fighters that had NO amateur experience and still went on to reach greatness.

Holyfield fought limited opposition before he defeated Qawi so he was very green.

I'm not making excuses for Duran, he clearly lost that fight. Buchanan was holding his own against Duran, Duran knocked him out with a low blow.

I still think Duran was greener than Holyfield at that point because of Holyfield's amateur experience.

Duran probably hadn't faced anyone with De Jesus' style up to that point in his career, Holyfield probably fought quite a few fighters with similar styles to Qawi and his cruiserweight opposition. Besides Duran and De Jesus fought 2 more times and Duran knocked De Jesus out both times.

Qawi's prime was at 175 anyways

Qawi's prime was at 175 anyways

Whats your point? Qawi was a beast at both light heavy and cruiser. He stopped the undefeated Piet Crous to capture the cruiser weight title and defended it twice, one of those defenses was against Leon Spinks. After the Holyfield losses, Qawi went on to give Foreman a hard fight at heavyweight.

A person has to be ignorant to try to take away from Holyfield's victory. The man only had 11 pro fights and he defeated an experienced veteran that had 26 fights and was a former light heavy champion.

Qawi was 5'6, quite amazing for a light heavyweight/cruiserweight. Imagine Hatton fighting at cruiserweight.

How about Michael Moorer at LHW vs Evander Holyfield at CW? Moorer had all of his wins by knockout in that division.

Moorer never faced any great opposition as a light heavyweight but he showed how good he was by being a top contender and a champion as a heavyweight, kept most of his power too.

Qawi was 5'6, quite amazing for a light heavyweight/cruiserweight. Imagine Hatton fighting at cruiserweight.

How about Michael Moorer at LHW vs Evander Holyfield at CW? Moorer had all of his wins by knockout in that division.

Moorer never faced any great opposition as a light heavyweight but he showed how good he was by being a top contender and a champion as a heavyweight, kept most of his power too.

Interesting because my uncle and i were actually discussing this fight a while ago. Hes a Holyfield fanatic so of course he choose him. I think it would have been a good fight.

Moorer's chin was weak at heavyweight so it could have been better at light heavy.

Even when Holyfield was better prepared for their rematch, Moorer's southpaw pure boxing style gave Evander problems. Holyfield always seemed to have problems with southpaws. He was also confused in the Ibragomov fight.

Close one to call. If Evander doesn't stop him, (which could very well happen) then he would lose a decision.

Whats your point? Qawi was a beast at both light heavy and cruiser. He stopped the undefeated Piet Crous to capture the cruiser weight title and defended it twice, one of those defenses was against Leon Spinks. After the Holyfield losses, Qawi went on to give Foreman a hard fight at heavyweight.

A person has to be ignorant to try to take away from Holyfield's victory. The man only had 11 pro fights and he defeated an experienced veteran that had 26 fights and was a former light heavy champion.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them ignorant. Yes Holyfield accomplished a lot in his relatively short stint at CW, and he did it after very few professional fights, but he did have a very good amatuer background including his olympic experience (did you know that Leon Spinks beat Ali (albeit a diminished one) after only 7 pro fights?

Holyfield didn't have nearly the career at CW that Duran did at LW, so it's difficult to compare them. Since Duran is a top 10 ATG and his best weight was LW, I think the answer is obvious.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them ignorant. Yes Holyfield accomplished a lot in his relatively short stint at CW, and he did it after very few professional fights, but he did have a very good amatuer background including his olympic experience (did you know that Leon Spinks beat Ali (albeit a diminished one) after only 7 pro fights?

Holyfield didn't have nearly the career at CW that Duran did at LW, so it's difficult to compare them. Since Duran is a top 10 ATG and his best weight was LW, I think the answer is obvious.

He was taking away from the victory, its obvious. When people say that Hatton was not in his proper weight division when he fought Mayweather, doesn't it take away from Mayweather's victory? Thats what he was doing when he said that Qawi's prime was at light heavy weight. Its similar to when people say that Hatton's true prime was at junior welter. See you learned something.

And yes, Spinks beat Ali but he also lost the rematch. Qawi was not past his peak when Evander beat him, whats your point? Also, Duran is not a top 10 great only because of his lightweight career. Duran being a lightweight champion, welterweight champion, beating the then unbeaten Ray Leonard, capturing the junior middleweight title, and middleweight title is why he is in the hall fame. If Duran retired with only the lightweight career that he had, then he wouldn't have even been top 20 of the greatest fighters of all time. What great fighter did he beat at lightweight?

Whats your point? Qawi was a beast at both light heavy and cruiser. He stopped the undefeated Piet Crous to capture the cruiser weight title and defended it twice, one of those defenses was against Leon Spinks. After the Holyfield losses, Qawi went on to give Foreman a hard fight at heavyweight.

A person has to be ignorant to try to take away from Holyfield's victory. The man only had 11 pro fights and he defeated an experienced veteran that had 26 fights and was a former light heavy champion.

Qawi's prime was at 175, De Jesus prime was at 135.

It's ignorant to not understand the point.

I can't argue with that. But you have to consider the fact that Holyfield was undefeated at cruiser weight and fought the better line of fighters in my opinion. Duran lost to Esteban De Jesus by UD and was out on feet from a left hook.

Evander unified the cruiser weight titles and beating, Qawi, and sugar De Le leon is pretty impressive when you think about the few fights that he had. Holyfield was 17-0 when he beat Carlos De Leon and 11-0 when he beat Qawi the first time.

Don't get me wrong, Duran was one of the greatest lightweights of all time but this is hard for me to choose. Duran did some great things at lightweight as well.

I thought your question more of a 'who was a better fighter, ability wise' and not who was greater based on accomplishments. Because now I see people comparing their legacy's at these weights. Which is also fine. In that case i'd still go for Duran based on longetivity and showing less weaknesses than Holyfield at CW.

Both of their losses(Well, imo Holyfield lost the first fight against Qawi. Either way, Holyfield showed his inexperience and other weaknesses) were early in their careers, and both avenged those defeats impressively. Holyfield perhaps more impressive but again, not trying to discredit Holyfield, but it looked more like Qawi threw that second fight. He just layed there, or he quit.

Since that is about even, you have to look at how many more fights Duran had at Lightweight compared to Holy. He stayed there longer, showed his Boxing skills against diffirent types of opponents where as Holyfield left CW as soon as it was cleaned out by him.

The Duran - DeJesus trilogy:

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Duran vs DeJesus I 1972

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Duran vs DeJesus II 1974

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Duran vs DeJesus III 1978



Other Duran LW fights:

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Duran vs Buchanan 1972

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Duran vs Ishimatsu 1973

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Duran vs Lou Bizzaro 1976

Who did Duran fight at lightweight? You're comparing who Holyfield fought, which was about three guys, to Durans 70! 30 of which were against hacks to get his skills up but the rest which were against very, very good opposition. Why don't we look at a couple of their best wins...

Ok, so who did Qawi fight and beat at Cruiser? Just about no one. Spinks? Ok. Crous? Ok. Wait, who is Crous? He's no one. He won the title of a nobodythen basically lost it the next to Qawi then retired a couple fights later. Even Qawi was beaten by the 'names' he fought because he fought them all at a shit weight for him.

Buchanan or De Jesus? I'll go with Buchanan for the moment. He defeated Ismael Laguna (HOF) twice, Ruben Navarro, Carlos Hernandez, Carlos Ortiz (HOF), Jim Watt (HOF).

What about Ernesto Marcel, Edwin Viruet, Fernandez, Saoul Mamby, Hector Thompson, Kobayashi!

Seriously, are you really comparing the two...or just a being a joker? They are so far apart from being comparable it's not even feasible to bother trying. Me thinks you don't like Duran much. :ugh:

Who did Duran fight at lightweight? You're comparing who Holyfield fought, which was about three guys, to Durans 70! 30 of which were against hacks to get his skills up but the rest which were against very, very good opposition. Why don't we look at a couple of their best wins...

You are not understanding anything. Holyfield had only 11 fights when he fought Qawi for the title and was undefeated at that weight. Duran lost to Estaban and he was a good fighter, just not on the level of Qawi.

Evander beat Henry Tillman, who also later became a decent heavyweight contender, Carlos De Leon (one of the greatest cruisers of all time) and Qawi, former light heavyweight and cruiser weight champion.

All of these fighters are better than Duran's opposition at lightweight.




Ok, so who did Qawi fight and beat at Cruiser? Just about no one. Spinks? Ok. Crous? Ok. Wait, who is Crous? He's no one. He won the title of a nobodythen basically lost it the next to Qawi then retired a couple fights later. Even Qawi was beaten by the 'names' he fought because he fought them all at a shit weight for him.

Buchanan or De Jesus? I'll go with Buchanan for the moment. He defeated Ismael Laguna (HOF) twice, Ruben Navarro, Carlos Hernandez, Carlos Ortiz (HOF), Jim Watt (HOF).


lol wow. I didn't know that Buchanan, Navarro, Hernandez, Ortiz, Watt, ect was great? So who did they beat? Crous was unbeaten and fought his way up the cruiser weight rankings while beating top 10 opponents and getting the belt. You are only taking away from Holyfields victory.


What about Ernesto Marcel, Edwin Viruet, Fernandez, Saoul Mamby, Hector Thompson, Kobayashi!

Seriously, are you really comparing the two...or just a being a joker? They are so far apart from being comparable it's not even feasible to bother trying. Me thinks you don't like Duran much. :ugh:



[/QUOTE]
Honestly, what about them and what have they done in the sport? Because i have been around the sport and have never heard of any of them. You are just throwing random names in there.

What about Ernesto Marcel, Edwin Viruet, Fernandez, Saoul Mamby, Hector Thompson, Kobayashi!

Honestly, what about them and what have they done in the sport? Because i have been around the sport and have never heard of any of them. You are just throwing random names in there.

Robero Duran's opposition at LW:

Hiroshi Kobayashi former WBA&WBC super featherweight champion
Ernesto Marcel became the WBA featherweight champion and DEFEATED Alexis Arguello

Ken Buchanan 43-1 at the time. the WBA lightweight champion who had recently vacanted the WBC world title. One of Britain's all time best fighters who had wins over many great lightweights.

Esteban DeJesus 41-1 at the time of their second fight. Duran's toughest opponent, became the WBC lightweight champion. Victory over Duran already makes him a great but he had top great victories as well and a long WBC lightweight title run.

Hector Thompson 39-2 at the time, he was a top Australian contender. Fought pretty much every top fighter in the 70's from Duran to Antonio Cervantes.
Guts Ishimatsu became the WBC lightweight champion, defeated an aging Ken Buchanan.
Saoul Mamby became the WBC light welterweight champion by defeating an aging DeJesus.

Some of the best names.

There were other top ranked contenders who Duran defeated during his 6 year reign (Firuet, Fernandez, Bizzaro, Ortiz, Lampkin, Takayama...) but it would take too long to list all of their accomplishments.

You are not understanding anything. Holyfield had only 11 fights when he fought Qawi for the title and was undefeated at that weight. Duran lost to Estaban and he was a good fighter, just not on the level of Qawi.

Evander beat Henry Tillman, who also later became a decent heavyweight contender, Carlos De Leon (one of the greatest cruisers of all time) and Qawi, former light heavyweight and cruiser weight champion.

All of these fighters are better than Duran's opposition at lightweight.






lol wow. I didn't know that Buchanan, Navarro, Hernandez, Ortiz, Watt, ect was great? So who did they beat? Crous was unbeaten and fought his way up the cruiser weight rankings while beating top 10 opponents and getting the belt. You are only taking away from Holyfields victory.





Honestly, what about them and what have they done in the sport? Because i have been around the sport and have never heard of any of them. You are just throwing random names in there.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

Hehehe...I'm not meaning to be offensive but if you think you've been around the sport and know a lot but haven't heard of any of these guys...well, that just shows you haven't been around the sport that long and you don't know that much.

Crous didn't beat anyone of note ever! He won the title off a complete nobody, lost it to Qawi nearly straight away and then retired. If you are even bothering to use his name as someone good, you're really clutching at straws. Qawi beat Crous and Leon Spinks then lost the title straight away to Holyfield. He meant nothing at cruiser and there are about ten fighters Duran faced at lightweight that were better.

Now, normally I like your point of view and the fighters you like, but, in this you seem very out of sorts and on the wrong track or in some kind of denial. You mentioned Henry Tillman, De Leon and Qawi as all being better than anyone Duran beat at lightweight....right? :ugh:

Henry Tillman never even won a title! He was such a nobody I'm still trying to figure out why you would mention him as a fighter trying to give someone a reputation with. He never won a single title! I'm sorry, but I just can't see where you're going with this?

What about those other guys and who did they beat huh? Mamby was the WBC lightweight champ and defended it maybe six or seven times. Fernandez and Marcel were the only two guys to beat Alexis Arguello in his prime. Marcel was a two time WBA featherweight champion who had again about six or seven defenses including his win over Arguello in his last fight. He went on to win those titles after being beaten by Duran. Ishimatsu won and defended the WBC lightweight title six times (then lost it to De Jesus) after being KO'ed by Duran. Kobayashi was maybe Japans greatest fighter after Harada. He was the unified super featherweight champ and defended the WBC title 3 times and the WBA title about eight times. I'm not bothering to include the obvious guys like Buchanan and De Jesus.

Did I read that you were laughing at Ortiz, Buchanan, Hernandez etc? You don't even know who they are do you? lol!!!
Ortiz beat about five or six Hall of Fame fighters, had seventy fights, lost seven, unified the lightweight titles, defended them about 18 times including the unified titles about 11 of those! He is generally considered one of the greatest fighters ever. Buchanan stopped him in six rounds and also beat Ismael Laguna twice..Let me guess, you don't know who Laguna is right? He is another Hall of Famer who also unified the lightweight titles and fought and beat about five Hall of Famers. Hernandez was the unified light welter champ...shall I go on?

Ok, so in short, you have Holyfield who had six title fights at cruiser. Three of those were against guys who were not exactly what you would call great fighters and apart from De Leon who was at the end of his career and had had about ten defenses, the rest had a combined total of about six defenses! That includes Qawi who only had two title defenses at cruiser. If you actually look at the guys Holyfield fought at cruiser in title fights which were Ocasio, Parkey, Tillman...:ugh: Qawi and De Leon, the only guy that did anything and meant anything was De Leon.

Duran had 12 title defenses, lost one non title fight to De Jesus and then revenged it twice by KO each time for the title. He fought about eight past, present and future champs at lightweight who had a combined successful record of around 35 - 40 title defenses and unified the titles.

That was about the longest post I've ever written arguing one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read....:confused:

Robero Duran's opposition at LW:

Hiroshi Kobayashi former WBA&WBC super featherweight champion
Ernesto Marcel became the WBA featherweight champion and DEFEATED Alexis Arguello

Ken Buchanan 43-1 at the time. the WBA lightweight champion who had recently vacanted the WBC world title. One of Britain's all time best fighters who had wins over many great lightweights.

Esteban DeJesus 41-1 at the time of their second fight. Duran's toughest opponent, became the WBC lightweight champion. Victory over Duran already makes him a great but he had top great victories as well and a long WBC lightweight title run.

Hector Thompson 39-2 at the time, he was a top Australian contender. Fought pretty much every top fighter in the 70's from Duran to Antonio Cervantes.
Guts Ishimatsu became the WBC lightweight champion, defeated an aging Ken Buchanan.
Saoul Mamby became the WBC light welterweight champion by defeating an aging DeJesus.

Some of the best names.

There were other top ranked contenders who Duran defeated during his 6 year reign (Firuet, Fernandez, Bizzaro, Ortiz, Lampkin, Takayama...) but it would take too long to list all of their accomplishments.

Now why can't I sum it up like you just did? Nice, short and to the point! I like it. I just can't seem to help but blab about random shite that rarely actually means anything. :lol1:

Edit: Just on Hector Thompson, me and my dad used to watch these old tapes of Thompson fighting on TV Ringside that he had from back when he was younger and fighting and he was such a great fighter. Really damn tough and gave Duran one of his hardest fights! I remember especially his fights with Manny Santos. They were just brilliant! His three fights with Carlos Giminez (who was something like 80-3 when they first fought) were fantastic as well. I didn't see the last one though, only the first two. Thompson won all three.

He fought absolutely anyone and everyone though. Really fantastic fighter and they just don't come like him anymore. I've got a tape with an interview of him saying if the ref would have let him go on against Duran he would have knocked him out the very next round!!! Hahaha, great stuff, what a guy.

No, that was a top post and very informative, you certainly proved that you know your boxing (not that it was ever in doubt).

I have been rambling about some useless shit on this site myself.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166675&page=6

:ugh:

Atleast slicksouthpaw can argue his point without resorting to this kind of stuff.

You believe Marciano was athletically inferior because he was white. There's no point for me to argue with a racist like you.

The Manchine is a self hating whiteboy from Finland, he seems to always bash white fighters....He claims to be a Klitschko fan, but he bashes Wlad and Vitali all the time...The Manchine is a white honky hater that nuthugs black fighters.

:banana:

No, that was a top post and very informative, you certainly proved that you know your boxing (not that it was ever in doubt).

I have been rambling about some useless shit on this site myself.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166675&page=6

:ugh:

Atleast slicksouthpaw can argue his point without resorting to this kind of stuff.





:banana:

Holy crap! I'm dead serious when I say that some of the stuff I see written on this site actually scares me and makes me worry about the state of humanity today.

I sometimes try to ponder where and from what dark recesses of the human psyche these various creepy, crazy and irrational posts from certain people come from....sadly, I just can't seem to think how these minds work and what possible processes go into making them tick and how these people come up with their insane ideas about racism, logic, common sense, their favourite fighters etc...generally any idea they have actually lol!

:thinking: ....Weird.

A good argument could be put forth for either man, being the the best fighter's ever in their respective weight classes. However it is a difficult question considering the vastly different opposition they faced, and the fact that Duran dominated lightweight for many years whereas Holyfield used Cruiserweight as a stepping stone to his ultimate ambitions in the heavyweight division.

Lets Compare Duran's best accomplishments at lightweight to Holyfield's best wins at cruiser weight.

Holyfield..............

1.Only having 11 fights and getting a title
2.Beating Dwight Qawi (second greatest cruiser weight of all time)
3.Beating Carlos De Leon(Third greatest cruiser weight of all time)
4.Unifying all of the titles
5.Retiring from the division as the unified champion with only 17 fights and also undefeated.

Proof that Qawi is in the hall of fame.......
http://www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish/article_01075.shtml (scroll down)

Proof that Carlos ''sugar'' De Leon is in the hall of fame (scroll down)

http://www.hbo.com/boxing/features/greatest/pr_fighters.html

The man (Evander Holyfield) had only 17 professional fights and accomplished all of these things.

Give me a great fighter that Duran beat at lightweight that was in their prime. Do not give me a no name that got his hands on a paper belt that beat another no name FOR the paper belt (like you have been doing). I want a great fighter that Duran beat who is still being mentioned today or is at least in the international boxing hall of fame.

Evander Holyfield beat the 2 other greatest cruiser weights OF ALL TIME with having only 11 pro fights when he beat Qawi and 17 when he beat De Leon.

Ken Buchanan was a HOFer who beat many other HOFers.
http://www.ibhof.com/buchanan.htm

I'm quite sure Esteban DeJesus will be inducted someday. DeJesus is included in the same list with DeLeon.

DeJesus wasn't only the first guy to beat Roberto Duran. He beat a lot of talented fighters, such as Ray Lampkin and Johnny Gant and Alfonso Frazier. Duran will forever overshadow him, but what's terrible about being second best to maybe the greatest lightweight ever?

DeLeon is another guy many don't take seriously, but he got a lot accomplished in the cruiserweight division. He won a piece of the title four different times and beat about every decent cruiserweight there was throughout the 1980s. It wasn't a very deep division and DeLeon wasn't especially dominant, but he was a very stubborn, skilled fighter who fought at the top of his division for nearly a decade.

http://www.hbo.com/boxing/features/greatest/pr_fighters.html


I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the other fighters who Duran beat inducted into the HOF as well.

I don't really think Qawi is the 2nd greatest cruiserweight of all time, what did he really accomplish in that division?

Qawi had his best days at LHW, beat Saad twice, lost to Spinks, then picked up the CW belt from Piet Crous in a relatively new division, defended it once against Leon Spinks before losing a SD to Holyfield, UD to Ocasio and by KO to Holyfield.

Defeating De Leon was IMO Holyfield's greatest accomplishment at CW.
I still don't think that it is as good as defeating Ken Buchanan and Duran was only 20 years old in that fight..

We are talking about great fighters here. I'll give you Ken Buchanan because he was 43-1 when Duran beat him an accomplished some good things in the sport but other than that, i don't see anyone that Duran beat that could be considered to be one of the greats. Hell, if you asked me too, i could name 5 fighters that was inducted into the hall of fame for no particular reason. I need a fighter that was truly great like Qawi and De Leon was at cruiser weight. They are two greatest fighters in that division other than Holyfield.

A ringside report on the cruiser weights that explains Qawi and De Leon's career at cruiser as well as others
http://www.ringsidereport.com/Wilbur3152005.htm

The site that i found didn't allow me to provde the link but here you at least see that he was the second greatest cruiser weight.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Qawi+the+second+greatest+cruiserweight&btnG=Search

Click on the article and read the story.

We are talking about great fighters here. I'll give you Ken Buchanan because he was 43-1 when Duran beat him an accomplished some good things in the sport but other than that, i don't see anyone that Duran beat that could be considered to be one of the greats. Hell, if you asked me too, i could name 5 fighters that was inducted into the hall of fame for no particular reason. I need a fighter that was truly great like Qawi and De Leon was at cruiser weight. They are two greatest fighters in that division other than Holyfield.

Ken Buchanan and Esteban DeJesus are both top lightweights. You also have to count in Duran's solid wins over other fighters. He reigned for over 6 years and took on all comers in a tough division.

DeLeon and Qawi might be great cruiserweights but would they have had success in a more talent-filled division? I'm not so sure.

A ringside report on the cruiser weights that explains Qawi and De Leon's career at cruiser as well as others
http://www.ringsidereport.com/Wilbur3152005.htm

This article explains exactly what many have been saying, the cruiserweight division was not a very talent-filled division because it was new and there wasn't much money in it.
Holyfield pretty much used it as a stepping stone just like David Haye seems to be doing right now.

All credit to De Leon for being a top CW for many years but he had his losses against some mediocre opposition. I'm not so sure if he would've been successful if the division had more talent in it.

Qawi was a tough, tough fighter considering he was just 5'6 and fought at LHW & CW but he only had one dimension because of his size and Holyfield made it hard for himself by brawling with Qawi.

Manchine, here's proof that Qawi is the second greatest cruiser weight of all time.
http://www.********boxing.com/news.p...re=1%20-%2025k

That is cool and all but the writer himself acknowledges that Qawi's resume at CW was quite poor.
I rank fighters based on their resume, not their potential/how great they performed in a loss/how exciting they were. Qawi always seemed to come up a bit short when fighting the best opposition, not including his two great victories over Matthew Saad Muhammad.

Ken Buchanan and Esteban DeJesus are both top lightweights. You also have to count in Duran's solid wins over other fighters. He reigned for over 6 years and took on all comers in a tough division.

DeLeon and Qawi might be great cruiserweights but would they have had success in a more talent-filled division? I'm not so sure.


Duran was a monster at lightweight and beat some outstanding opponents but Esteban DeJesus is not great. I gave you ken Buchanan because he had a good record and beat some top opposition at lightweight. After reviewing Duran's resume, there was no fighter (other than Buchanan) that really stood out. He beat some decent fighters but none that was on the level of Qawi and De Leon, who still remain as the second and third greatest cruiser weights of all time.







This article explains exactly what many have been saying, the cruiserweight division was not a very talent-filled division because it was new and there wasn't much money in it.
Holyfield pretty much used it as a stepping stone.

All credit to De Leon for being a top CW for many years but he had his losses against some mediocre opposition. I'm not so sure if he would've been successful if the division had more talent in it.

The cruiser weight division was not a very talented filled division but we are comparing the fighters resumes and what they accomplished in their division so basically, nothing matters others than the fact that Holyfield beat 2 hall of famers with that were the two other greatest in that division, of all time. Duran accomplished some great things at lightweight by beating some good fighters, but none of them will go down as one of the greatest lightweights. Holyfield WAS the greatest cruiser weight of all time and he beat the 2 other greatest. You also have to think about the few fights that he had when he accomplished all of this. He also unified the belts and left the division undefeated.






Qawi was a tough, tough fighter considering he was just 5'6 and fought at LHW & CW but he only had one dimension because of his size and Holyfield made it hard for himself by brawling with Qawi.



That is cool and all but the writer himself acknowledges that Qawi's resume at CW was quite poor.
I rank fighters based on their resume, not their potential/how great they performed in a loss/how exciting they were.

I rank the fighters based on what they have accomplished and their place in history. Qawi IS the second greatest cruiser weight of all time and De Leon IS the third greatest.

Duran was a monster at lightweight and beat some outstanding opponents but Esteban DeJesus is not great. I gave you ken Buchanan because he had a good record and beat some top opposition at lightweight. After reviewing Duran's resume, there was no fighter (other than Buchanan) that really stood out. He beat some decent fighters but none that was on the level of Qawi and De Leon, who still remain as the second and third greatest cruiser weights of all time.

Yeah but you also have to take this into account, the cruiserweight division has been around for like 25 years... The lightweight division has a history of over 100 years.

Qawi and De Leon could be top cruiserweights now but in 100 years they might not be regarded as even top 15 if the CW division really takes off.
IMO Qawi certainly will not be because his resume at CW is very poor even when compared to the resumes of JC Gomez, Vassiliy Jirov who defended their CW titles numerous times unlike Qawi.

The cruiser weight division was not a very talented filled division but we are comparing the fighters resumes and what they accomplished in their division so basically, nothing matters others than the fact that Holyfield beat 2 hall of famers with that were the two other greatest in that division, of all time. Duran accomplished some great things at lightweight by beating some good fighters, but none of them will go down as one of the greatest lightweights. Holyfield WAS the greatest cruiser weight of all time and he beat the 2 other greatest. You also have to think about the few fights that he had when he accomplished all of this. He also unified the belts and left the division undefeated.

Qawi is a hall of famer mostly for his work at LHW and the great fights he had.
Gatti will probably end up in the hall of fame but that doesn't mean I will call him a great win for Mayweather.

De Leon isn't in the hall of fame but he is a top fighter like DeJesus was. They will both probably be in the HOF in the future.

DeJesus had a greater win than both DeLeon and Qawi had in their entire careers over Duran, he also reigned two years as the lightweight champion and ended his career with only losses to Gomez (early in his career), Duran, Antonio Cervantes and Mamby (his last fight).

I've seen many rate Buchanan and DeJesus top 20 lightweights of all time.

Being the greatest fighter in the LW division which Duran arguably is (not saying he is for sure), is much better than being the greatest fighter in the CW division.

Duran defended his titles for over 6 years and had over 60 fights.
Holyfield didn't stay in the CW division for long and had under 20 fights.

Really this is like saying 'Finito' Lopez and Rocky Marciano were the greatest because they dominated their (rather weak) divisions and never lost.


I rank the fighters based on what they have accomplished and their place in history. Qawi IS the second greatest cruiser weight of all time and De Leon IS the third greatest.


Well that is your opinion.

IMO Qawi is not the second greatest because he never had a long title run at CW and never beat great CW's.
Qawi only had one dimension and I see many fighters beating him. He beats a lot of fighters coming his way though.

Lets Compare Duran's best accomplishments at lightweight to Holyfield's best wins at cruiser weight.

Holyfield..............

1.Only having 11 fights and getting a title
2.Beating Dwight Qawi (second greatest cruiser weight of all time)
3.Beating Carlos De Leon(Third greatest cruiser weight of all time)
4.Unifying all of the titles5.Retiring from the division as the unified champion with only 17 fights and also undefeated.

Proof that Qawi is in the hall of fame.......
http://www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish/article_01075.shtml (scroll down)

Proof that Carlos ''sugar'' De Leon is in the hall of fame (scroll down)

http://www.hbo.com/boxing/features/greatest/pr_fighters.html

The man (Evander Holyfield) had only 17 professional fights and accomplished all of these things.

Give me a great fighter that Duran beat at lightweight that was in their prime. Do not give me a no name that got his hands on a paper belt that beat another no name FOR the paper belt (like you have been doing). I want a great fighter that Duran beat who is still being mentioned today or is at least in the international boxing hall of fame.

Evander Holyfield beat the 2 other greatest cruiser weights OF ALL TIME with having only 11 pro fights when he beat Qawi and 17 when he beat De Leon.

Lets look at this as objectively and logically as we possibly can. Holyfield fought six title fights at cruiserweight. They were against Qawi, De Leon, Ocassio, Tillman and Parkey. Qawi and De Leon were his best. You claim they are better than anyone Duran fought at lightweight.

-Qawi had five title fights total at cruiserweight.
-He won two and lost three.
-His wins were against Piet Crous and Leon Spinks.
-Piet Crous, 24-0-1, had only had two title fights which were to Ossie Ocasio, who had only 19 fights with three losses, and Randy Stephens, who only had 25 fights with 8 losses, before he fought Qawi and was knocked out. After that he fought four journeymen, was knocked out by one who was 14-6 and retired.
-Leon Spinks, 17-4-2, had one cruiserweight title shot in which he was knocked out, which of course was against Qawi. He had also been KO'ed three times previously.

-Henry Tillman never won a title in his career. He had one title fight against Holyfield and was knocked out.

-Ricky Parkey had three title fights at cruiserweight (not counting the vacant WBF? cruiser title). He won two and was knocked out in the third in three rounds. He ended up with a record of 22-20! A fifty percent loss rate.

-De Leon was the best Holyfield fought at cruiser and, sadly, one of the best ever at cruiserweight (Qawi is not the second best at cruiserweight. I would put Holyfield, De Leon, Juan Gomez as the top three. Gomez was undefeated as a cruiser and had eight title fights winning all. He also had another five WBC International title fight wins. He finished up 43-1, his only loss a bad first round KO. His last fight was for the WBC International heavyweight title which he won against Oliver McCall).

-De Leon had a total of 16 title fights at cruiser.Five were losses and one was a draw. He had mediocre opposition for most of them to say the least. Unfortunately Cruiserweight has never been full of talent and still isn't. His best wins were against Marvin Camel, 43-15, and who only ever won the vacant title twice losing it both times in the very next fights, Yaqui Lopez, 63-15 who again never won a title but was KO'ed in every one of his 5 or so tries, S.T Gordon, 24-7, who won the title from De Leon with a second round KO had one defense and lost it back to De Leon by UD then retired after being KO'ed in the first round in his next fight, Alonzo Ratliff, 25-9, who won the title but again lost it the very next fight...Oh wait, De Leon lost to Alonzo. Near the end of his career he fought Holyfield and lost. They were his best opposition.

Slick, I usually enjoy your posts and I like the fighters you do, but c'mon, I really don't think you're being objective here. Those guys that you have never heard of and say won paper titles (Don't forget, back then the title was not like it is today, it was not a paper title, if you won the WBC and WBA titles you were the man because thats all there was. Very different from today and I only added the guys that had won those titles and defended it more than four or five times) were really damn good fighters.

Buchanan was genuinely one of the best pound for pound fighters of the time and Scotlands best ever fighter and he beat some amazing fighters that are also genuine Hall of Fame fighters. Those guys I mentioned are among the best ever lightweights, like Ortiz, Laguna, Hernandez and Navarro. You may not have heard of them but that doesn't mean just because you haven't that they were not great and that other people haven't heard of them as well. I am most definitely not throwing out random names. You seem to like the slick fighters right? You would of course know of quite possibly the slickest ever, Nicolino Locche? Laguna drew with Locche twice, who had beaten the aforementioned Hernandez, Ortiz beat Laguna and drew with Locche as well, Buchanan beat both Laguna and Ortiz.

If you can beat Alexis Arguello in his prime I'm pretty sure that you're a really, really damn great fighter. If you ever saw Ernesto Marcel fight you would certainly agree with me. His fight with Arguello was brilliant! After that fight Arguello went on to beat Ruben Olivares for the title!!! That was Marcels last fight. Marcel won 40 fights and only lost four! Duran was the only guy to ever knock him out.

You were even saying that you thought Henry Tillman was better than anyone Duran ever fought. The contenders that Duran beat at lightweight were some very stunning fighters and in a pound for pound sense I truly believe would have beaten anyone that Holyfield beat at cruiser. Have a look at Edwin Viruets fights. He was one of the best fighters I've ever seen who never won a title. Many boxing historians would agree with me too. He beat the great Alfredo Escalera giving him his first loss and was undefeated going in against Duran even though he had a loss on his record, it was a very disgraceful robbery loss which no one thought of as a loss.

Saoul Mamby was again one of the underrated guys. Check out this article on him: http://www.ringsidereport.com/Smith1192005.htm Sorry I don't know how to make it just link properly so you'll have to copy it ... :puppy_dog

I have always found De Jesus' story a sad one. Check this article out, it's very fine: http://www.kocorner.com/boxing/entry/esteban-de-jesus-a-tragic-story/

Edit: Hey, thats cool. It linked it for me automatically! :)

An interesting little article I thought you might enjoy:

neverlast
neverlast

Alexis Arguello-vs-Ismael Laguna

By Jim Amato

The "Explosive Thin Man" Arguello, a champion in three weight classes
versus the highly underrated "other" lightweight champion from Panama,
Ismael Laguna. For all intents and purposes Alexis was at his best boxing at
130 pounds. When he was champion of that division he defeated Bobby Chacon,
Boza Edwards, Rolando Navarette, and Bazooka Limon. All of who won the title
AFTER Alexis moved to 135 pounds. Arguello won the lightweight title from
Jim Watt. His highest profile defense at this weight was his highly
competitive knockout of future champion Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini. Alexis
never lost any of his titles in the ring.

Ismael Laguna was one of the best pure boxers the lightweight division
has seen in the last forty years. Only Pernell Whitaker, Howard Davis, and
Hall of Famer Ken Buchanan can compare. To win his first title Ismael out
boxed another Hall of Famer, Carlos Ortiz. Ortiz would then outmuscle Laguna
in winning two subsequent rematches. Five years later Ismael would regain
the title by beating the talented Mando Ramos. He would then lose twice to
Buchanan ending his long career. In 75 bouts against many of the worlds best
including Vincente Saldivar and Guts Suzuki, Ismael was never stopped. His
final record was 65-9-1 with 37 knockouts.

It is no secret the Alexis always had trouble with mobile boxers. Clever
but light hitting Vilomar Fernandez gave him fits. Laguna would give Alexis
a lot of angles. Arguello was usually a slow starter and Ismael was a very
good counter puncher. Laguna was not a hard hitter but he was a sharp and
accurate puncher. It is highly conceivable that Laguna would jump out to an
early lead. Laguna's jab would get in more often but Arguello's would carry
much more sting. Whenever possible Alexis would try to work the body. This
would probably be the key for an Arguello victory. As the bout progressed
Arguello's body attack would slow Laguna down. Remember this would be a
fifteen round fight. By the later rounds Alexis would begin to land some
telling head shots. Laguna would be hurt but he would smartly evade Arguello's
attempts to finish him. Occasionally Ismael would score with light but
flashy combinations but mostly he would be forced to box defensively. The
decision would be close but Arguello's power and his late surge would carry
him to a unanimous decision. Now I wonder how Alexis would have done against
the "other" champ from Panama, Roberto Duran.

[COLOR="Red"][I]
Duran was a monster at lightweight and beat some outstanding opponents but Esteban DeJesus is not great.


Esteban De Jesus is considered among the top five greatest Puerto Rican fighters ever. Without Duran in the lightweights at that time he would have been champion for many, many years.

He had a great resume with wins over the great champions Jr WW title holder Alfonzo Frazier, WBC lightweight champion 'Guts' Ishimatsu, Roberto Duran, and also beat Ray Lampkin, Hector Medina, and Vicente Saldivar, who were all undefeated rising prospects as well as other great fighters like Viruet, 'Buzzsaw' Yamabe just among a few.

His only losses came against the great champions Antonio Cervantes, Roberto Duran, Saoul Mamby and a terrible home town decision to Antonio Gomez in one of his early fights. Though Gomez was no slouch having beaten 'Kid Pembele' Cervantes and winning the WBA Featherweight title then losing it to Ernesto Marcel twice after some defenses.

Mate, if you're going to say Qawi was great after winning only two title fights against mediocre fighters and De Leon was great for again fighting and losing to mediocre opposition but then denigrate a fighter like De Jesus after he won the lightweight title and defended it over and against the fighters he did, well...:ugh: