It's an unfortunate cultural phenomenon, especially when you consider it arose primarily in the same country and among the same race that invented and developed jazz. Even more unfortunate is that kids worldwide have wasted their time listening to this.

Here are some of the problems I see with this music:

1. It demands too little of its participants. Jazz musicians may have rejected various techniques and forms, but they never exempted themselves from learning to master instruments and musical form. Now any kid with some equipment can call himself an "artist."

2. In terms of traditional musical elements (rhythm, harmony, melody) hip hop has contributed nothing, and even the reputed "underground" music is altogether lacking.

3. For the past two decades it has lacked thoughtful content. When was the last time a hip hop song was about something?

4. Lyrically, there has never been a competent artist who also pursued hip hop. I have checked far and wide, and I can't even find a third-rate poet who composed hip hop lyrics. And don't talk to me about "Tupac." He was better than average, but far from being a good writer.

5. Finally, and most importantly, the "culture" surrounding hip hop consists in nothing but ridiculous gestures, false pretense, and general slackness of character, posture, and attitude.

Theres a kind of music for everybody. If your a country type of dude, theres music from that perspective. If your a rock and roll guy, theres music from that perspective. If your a goth heavy metal guy, theres something for you there. If your a city guy who like beats and rhymes, theres something for you too. If you don't like rap/hip hop fine, but many people do. Let everybody like what they want...

Theres a kind of music for everybody. If your a country type of dude, theres music from that perspective. If your a rock and roll guy, theres musice from that perspective. If your a goth heavy metal guy, theres something for you there. If your a city guy who like beats and rhymes, theres something for you too. If you don't like rap/hip hop fine, but many people do. Let everybody like what they want...

This is not a matter of mere taste. I offered a bit of analysis. You should thank me.

This is not a matter of mere taste. I offered a bit of analysis. You should thank me.

I read your analysis,

Its all subjective, whats rediculous to you is not necessarily rediculous to someone else. So in other words, you have your opinion that Hip Hop is a low art form....fine...what do you want me to do say its fact? Its not, its your opinion and probably the opinions of many others. But like I said its not a fact. I think rap does take talent, try rapping like Jay-Z its not as easy at it might seem. I know people who try to rap and they are terrible...

Remember your analysis is also your opinion and nothing else. I appreciate your opinion though. There are plenty of good artist who are extremely talented writers. Now it may not pertain to the fields of sending a great overall message but it's entertaining and witty. And to me it's served it's purpose.

I never understood why people listen to music for meaning or something life changing. If you can get that out of a song it's great but for the most part it's entertainment for me. And that should go for any genre.

Critic, I'm happy your here...you'll get into some good arguments on the message board. Should be entertaining to watch...

Thanks guys.

The same can be said about any music form.

laughs.

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You make some very valid points there Critic, most of all being the lack of "talent" for want of a better word. Sure, it may be very difficult to speak into a microphone in time to music, but what about people who play guitar at the same time? ****, Phil Collins used to play drums and sing at the same time, two completely different rhythms, that's talent if you ask me. Not slating Hip Hop in any way, I quite like some of it myself, but the ammount of talent needed is nothing in comparison to other forms of music.

That team classic p4p is ****. Pavlik above B-Hop? WTF?!!?!? He has only fought one world class fighter. And Joe 2nd WTF?!?!?! It needs serious changes. No offecne to the team. :luvbed:

I never understood why people listen to music for meaning or something life changing. If you can get that out of a song it's great but for the most part it's entertainment for me. And that should go for any genre.

I feel you 100% on that...

That team classic p4p is ****. Pavlik above B-Hop? WTF?!!?!? He has only fought one world class fighter. And Joe 2nd WTF?!?!?! It needs serious changes. No offecne to the team. :luvbed:

I disagree with some of it, it was done by consensus vote.

I disagree with some of it, it was done by consensus vote.

Fair enough I guess.

Art is Art....If it wasn't then everyone would do it..

It's an unfortunate cultural phenomenon, especially when you consider it arose primarily in the same country and among the same race that invented and developed jazz. Even more unfortunate is that kids worldwide have wasted their time listening to this.

Here are some of the problems I see with this music:

1. It demands too little of its participants. Jazz musicians may have rejected various techniques and forms, but they never exempted themselves from learning to master instruments and musical form. Now any kid with some equipment can call himself an "artist."

2. In terms of traditional musical elements (rhythm, harmony, melody) hip hop has contributed nothing, and even the reputed "underground" music is altogether lacking.

3. For the past two decades it has lacked thoughtful content. When was the last time a hip hop song was about something?

4. Lyrically, there has never been a competent artist who also pursued hip hop. I have checked far and wide, and I can't even find a third-rate poet who composed hip hop lyrics. And don't talk to me about "Tupac." He was better than average, but far from being a good writer.

5. Finally, and most importantly, the "culture" surrounding hip hop consists in nothing but ridiculous gestures, false pretense, and general slackness of character, posture, and attitude.

The problem with your theory is that you're only looking at the bad in it, and you know it. You're not giving an unbiased depiction of it. You can point out the negative in ANYTHING and ignore the positive, and act like it's a bad thing.

1. By your standard then, a poet, ignoring hip-hip or rap, is not an artist? Someone who can write lines of poetry, isn't an artist? It takes nothing but a voice for that, and yet he's not an artist to you? You don't point out the fact that regardless of the lyrics, rappers ATLEAST write the majority of their music. Whereas most other genres of music depend on spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to hire others to write for them. And people who write lyrics, are poets. Some might suck, but they ARE artists because of it. And if you think all rappers SUCK at poetry, then you're just an idiot. By the way, Andre 3000, Scott Storch, Timbaland, Eminem, Pharrell.. I can go on and on with the list of rappers that are KNOWN to be able to play an instrument very well.

2. You claim the underground music is lacking and that the genre itself has contributed nothing in terms of musical elements. What about breakdancing? It might not be your thing, but you couldn't really breakdance to any other form of music. You might want to claim that breakdancing has no importance, but you'd be wrong. It takes incredible amounts of talent to breakdance. If you want to be close-minded about that, that's your perogative. But it takes talent. The flow of a rap song ONLY fits that form of art. It's an element that ONLY hip-hop has brought in.

3. The last time a hip hop song was about something????? In the last two decades?? Hmm.. That would be from 1988 until now. Hmmm, where should I begin.....

Nas - Heaven
Eminem - Sing For The Moment
Nas - Dance
Talib Kweli - Get By
Common - PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING.
Lupe Fiasco - Essentially his entire catalog
Kanye West - Jesus Walks
Rhymefest - Bullet

I did that within, 2 MINUTES. I didn't even go outside of 2000 (technically, I did with the Common comment, but otherwise, I didn't) and I didn't have to.

This is to ignore 2Pac's collection, including Dear Momma, Changes, Brenda's Gotta Baby. Ignoring dead prez, Mos Def, and most NON-mainstream artist. I used ONLY mainstream artist there. Get serious.

4. You want a POET. Look into serious hip hop and quit being close-minded. Talib Kweli, Lupe Faisco, Vinnie Paz from Jedi Mind Tricks. Jedi Mind Tricks writes songs about slave labor in this country. How the government is trying to control prisoners. Name another genre of music that comes close to touching "Shadow Business." Rappers have to write THREE times the lyrics that basically any other genre has to, and if it's done correctly, and it can be, it's not even a fair comparison. In terms of writing, hip hop is on another level.

5. This is just stereo-typical bull****. Like saying all rockers consist of is dirty bastards doing drugs and beating the **** out of eachother in moshpits. It's just not the case. Every music has an audience. For example, I LOVE hip-hop and I wear normal fitting pants, button-ups with a v-neck sweater over. I'm not a punk, but I'm not a gang member. So, that bull**** goes right out the window.

It's clear you know very little about the genre and just don't like it. That's fine. What I don't get about people is how they can dismiss something they know nothing about, JUST because it's not for them. It's a bit sad, to be honest. Honestly, until you know more about the genre, you shouldn't even talk about it. You'll sound ignorant.

You make some very valid points there Critic, most of all being the lack of "talent" for want of a better word. Sure, it may be very difficult to speak into a microphone in time to music, but what about people who play guitar at the same time? ****, Phil Collins used to play drums and sing at the same time, two completely different rhythms, that's talent if you ask me. Not slating Hip Hop in any way, I quite like some of it myself, but the ammount of talent needed is nothing in comparison to other forms of music.

Thanks for the karma.

I'm a hip hop fan but I think your right. Rap/Hip Hop is not the most difficult music to make in comparison to other forms of music. But I do believe it does take talent...

1. Did Godzhand post some grungy rock videos or something? I don't listen to that **** either.

2. C-Drone made a few nice points, but got too emotional. I'll address a few of them:

a. I never said poets weren't artists. But hip hop "artists" typically work altogether without observance of implicit laws of sense and logic; also, their vocabulary is both narrow and vague. I have yet to find a very good poet among hip hop lyricists, and I have looked. Post some lyrics you think are good, and I'll explain why they aren't.

b. You keep saying "don't be close-minded." My points were the result of many years of careful study of pop culture. I explained them without hyperbole, emotional content, or disrespect.

c. Regarding breakdancing, it was a nice fashion. I'm old enough for it, and to this day I can still breakdance. Reread the point in my initial post, however, and you'll see this was irrelevant. I claimed hip hop contributed nothing of any note from a musical-theoretical standpoint. I did not discuss popular dance.

That team classic p4p is ****. Pavlik above B-Hop? WTF?!!?!? He has only fought one world class fighter. And Joe 2nd WTF?!?!?! It needs serious changes. No offecne to the team. :luvbed:

If you could name somebody of this era who has been even half as dominant as Joe I would be suprised.

Rap is ridiculously **** now.

1. Did Godzhand post some grungy rock videos or something? I don't listen to that **** either.

2. C-Drone made a few nice points, but got too emotional. I'll address a few of them:

a. I never said poets weren't artists. But hip hop "artists" typically work altogether without observance of implicit laws of sense and logic; also, their vocabulary is both narrow and vague. I have yet to find a very good poet among hip hop lyricists, and I have looked. Post some lyrics you think are good, and I'll explain why they aren't.

b. You keep saying "don't be close-minded." My points were the result of many years of careful study of pop culture. I explained them without hyperbole, emotional content, or disrespect.

c. Regarding breakdancing, it was a nice fashion. I'm old enough for it, and to this day I can still breakdance. Reread the point in my initial post, however, and you'll see this was irrelevant. I claimed hip hop contributed nothing of any note from a musical-theoretical standpoint. I did not discuss popular dance.

And you claim NO close-mindedness? Be real. I'm not emotional about anything. I'm just realistic. You said rhythm. If you are talking about music, name the other style of music you could realistically breakdance to. All I asked.

Simple enough, you can believe what you'd like, but the fact remains that you simply don't like the music. It's kind of sad that people have to HATE what they don't like. As apposed to just NOT liking it and moving along.

And you claim NO close-mindedness? Be real. I'm not emotional about anything. I'm just realistic. You said rhythm. If you are talking about music, name the other style of music you could realistically breakdance to. All I asked.

Simple enough, you can believe what you'd like, but the fact remains that you simply don't like the music. It's kind of sad that people have to HATE what they don't like. As apposed to just NOT liking it and moving along.

As you might say, "chill homie." If you found good lyrics I would admit it.

As you might say, "chill homie." If you found good lyrics I would admit it.

Who's upset? And why MIGHT I say "chill homie?"

(A!) Alert, assassins at large allegedly
Automatic artillery, angrily aimed and aggressively
Accurate AK's angled all ways
Adversary afraid as active ammunition abrase
Accumulated an alias after arrested
Accompanied armed accessory, as an adolescent
(B!) Bridge Benz brolic burner bringing brothers
Betrayer's bodies briefly be body banged bleeding brothers
Blades blasting brave bashing Brooklyn bullet busters
Big biscuits barrels blazing be hating ***** boasts and bluffers
Borough barricaders beat bringers brutally blast
Bringin blood baths (C!) cover cowards corners collecting cash
Confirmed convicts committing crimes clapping cats
Creeping cashiers causing characters comas, capping crabs
Chaos causing, clearly commanding Cee-Lo
Cocaine capsule caps colored, capturing customer's C-Notes
Confiscating combination, counting cream capulating
****ing calibur chromes creating casualties compensating
(D!) Domination devoted dealer devastating
Determination demonstrating, devine dedication
Debating drug deals, demanding dough distributed
Definitely dividing double-digit dollar dividends
Drama declaring demolishing domain dozer
Directing dumb-dumbs doing dummies dirty disarming Dojos
(E!) Estimating earnings enlarged and economically
Equally educating each exercising equality
Eliminating, expiring enemies eradicating
Erasing evidence every element evacuating
(F!) Fake fraud ******s fronting for fame fleeing from flames
Firing full-fledged four-fours forcing flesh from frames
Fortune fanatic, follow formats for funds faithfully
**** five felonies, furiously fighting for freedom fatally
Frigidy, frantic fighting FEDS feeling fearful
Finacially fortunate, flipping figures from fifty-fifty
(G!) Gambles gathering grants, grabbing gauges, gangsta ganks geeks
Getting green, Guess garments gleaming, greatly gaining G's
Ghetto genius, genuine gestures gracefully guide
Government generals gradually generating genocide
(H!) Head hoodlum, hitting heads heavenly, hypnotizing
Hire hitmen harnessly, holding heaters, hospitalizing
High holding hammers hectically hitting herbs, homiciding
Helicopter hijacking holding hostages, horrifying
(I!) Intellectually infinite imperial idol infamous
Inhale the Izm, injecting intelligence in ignorance
(J!) Jungle jump juggler, jaw-jabbing jeopardizer
Jacking jewelry jingles, jackknife jigging jittery jivers
(K!) Konnivers, knowledge key, keep a king, keep a kingdom
KKK killing, keenly keeping kosher
(L!) Living legitimate, legal license, Lex' lasting longevity
Luxury life, language lacing lyrical legacy
Lighting L's, loudly lounging living large like Luther
Loading long Lugers lethally lullabying losers
(M!) Maneuvers, made miraculously, microphone majesty
Music messiah mastered money making mathematically
(N!) Naturally negative, Notorious, Naughty Nature
Nasty New York ***** narcotic negotiator
(O!) Observator, oppression obstructing originator
Organized official officer oxen operator
(P!) Plot participator, plan powder pushing premeditated
Po-Po partners patrolin preventing payment
Prosecuting penny pinchers, prison penalty permanent placement
Packing powerful pistols punk plea and player's playing pavement
(Q!) Quote – "Queen's qualifyed quantity quality"
(R!) Rulers rule righteously rightfully royal rapology
Real revolutionaries rather regulate rivalry
Rampantly raising raiders rampagin relentless rivalry
(S!) Semi-sub, snub slugs sniping sharp shooter
Smacking soldiers silly severely shanking stupid (T!) troopers
Terrorizing, terrible thorough thug terrifying
Toting two tecs, taking territories thoroughly thriving
(U!) Unifying ultimately uplifting uncivilized
Unique understanding universally utilized
(V!) Visualize vocab victoriously vocalized
Versatile vice-versa verbals viciously victimize
(W!) Wise willy witty wisdom waging wars wisely
(X!) X-Con (Y!) yapping y'all yearningly (Z!) zig-zag Z!

[DJ KaySlay]
Hold on hold on
My ***** Papoose just took y'all, through the whole alphabet
A to Z, now we bout to flip it backwards, Z to A
Yo Papoose, get at these *****z man, let's go!

[Papoose]
(Z!) Zig-zag zigs involved weighing Zambian Zaires
Zodiac zone and Zulu's, Zion's zap a zillion zillionaires
(Y!) Yo you yeah, yesterday's youth yearning your yen
You yellow-bellied Yankee ying-yang yelling "yes"-men ([DJ KaySlay]
Hold up hold up, yo I'm just playing)
(X!) X-rated, ex-African, X-Man
Ex-leaders, ex-Clarence, X-Malcolm, X-Clan ([DJ KaySlay] Yo chill, yo chill chill chill man, chill man)
(W!) We want war, World War, world-wide warning
Walking with weapons we wacking walkie-talkie wearing wardens
We with whatever, want what whyling wherever war went
Warlock, warpath, warfare, warriors and Warren's – wait, what, why?

It's an unfortunate cultural phenomenon, especially when you consider it arose primarily in the same country and among the same race that invented and developed jazz. Even more unfortunate is that kids worldwide have wasted their time listening to this.

Here are some of the problems I see with this music:

1. It demands too little of its participants. Jazz musicians may have rejected various techniques and forms, but they never exempted themselves from learning to master instruments and musical form. Now any kid with some equipment can call himself an "artist."

2. In terms of traditional musical elements (rhythm, harmony, melody) hip hop has contributed nothing, and even the reputed "underground" music is altogether lacking.

3. For the past two decades it has lacked thoughtful content. When was the last time a hip hop song was about something?

4. Lyrically, there has never been a competent artist who also pursued hip hop. I have checked far and wide, and I can't even find a third-rate poet who composed hip hop lyrics. And don't talk to me about "Tupac." He was better than average, but far from being a good writer.

5. Finally, and most importantly, the "culture" surrounding hip hop consists in nothing but ridiculous gestures, false pretense, and general slackness of character, posture, and attitude.




Well If you are comparing hip Hop to "High Art" I would absolutely agree with you (I am a huge Bach and Albinoni fan) however if you are comparing it to other genres of popular music i would strongly disagree with you. In my opinion, at it's best, it is the most compelling form of popular music besides Blues. It is so unlike other genres of music though that it can be hard to convey it's aesthetic and appeal precisely. Besides that, there is so much bad that has been done to it's name, and so much garbage out there that is labeled "Hip Hop" that the perception of it suffers greatly. This includes the perception of it's merits. For example the rapper Rakim over 20 years ago modeled a kind of ****y/cool aesthetic feel to this music that was it's own version of "the cool" within the Jazz music aesthetic. In the modern day however the commercially profitable "gangsta" cliche has distorted and practically destroyed this aesthetic. Rakim would talk about his music and his skill, which he actually represented as deriving from a higher source, while advising kids to avoid violence and foolishly haughty behavior. The modern context twists this aesthetic untill it is unrecognizable and unappreciable. So there is first the issue of Hip Hop's fundamental character as a genre of music being difficult to convey for those that do not catch it instinctually (and those would include many of the millions that buy the records), and there is the issue of the fact that this form has been distorted for many years. Remember that hip Hop began as the artistic expression of a single closed community and has since become something very different. It is now an international commodity with very little interest in artistic expression.

As an illustration of the difference in general, I grew up in an era where the majority of rappers only ever talked about violence to condemn it.

Now let me address your points.

Demands little of it's participants? Well we probably have diferent defintions of "demanding alot". To me it is how innovative the end result is that determines talent in poular music. I am talking about someone that at the end of the day can yeild the most creative product regardless of whether or not they are using a guitar or some other "tool". Can anyone call themselves an artist? Well I don't think that a person that can just play a guitar is an "artist", art is defined by creativity. Anyone can be taught to play a guitar or piano but it does not follow that they are particularly creative and are therefore artists. Are we alarmed about the prospect of these people wrongfully calling themselves artists? Anyone can call themselves an artist but in the final analysis it is creative talent that will define the artist.

Contributing to music in the formal sense? Well in it's form it is a radically differnt genre of music, it is not going to contribute to melodically based music when it is not a strictly melodically based genre. Hip Hop itself is a formal innovation. For example, it turns music inside out and allows beats to wear melodies instead of having melodies strucured by beats. It ofcourse builds on this form , but because is a disctinct form it wouldn't be altering the form of melodically based music.

Hip Hop displayed on MTV and on the radio for the last 13 or so years lacks substance but this is not the same thing as saying that "Hip Hop lacks thoughful content" . I am not even talking about underground artists, I am talking about mainstream artists that are just a little more difficult to find than turning on MTV.

As for lyricism, there are plenty of good lyrics by the standard of not only popular music in general, but in my opinion some of the stuff that gets passed off in the modern day as poetry lol .


As for the culture, well that is clearly one person's interpretation. Remember that when you speak of "Hip Hop" you are not just talking about those aspects of hip Hop that you happen to be thinking about when you make the statement, but the entire genre.

Excellent post, res.

Edit: of course most of my criticisms apply to most genres of popular music.

You make some very valid points there Critic, most of all being the lack of "talent" for want of a better word. Sure, it may be very difficult to speak into a microphone in time to music, but what about people who play guitar at the same time? ****, Phil Collins used to play drums and sing at the same time, two completely different rhythms, that's talent if you ask me. Not slating Hip Hop in any way, I quite like some of it myself, but the ammount of talent needed is nothing in comparison to other forms of music.

You used one of the best artists ever as a comparison. Not many musical artists period compare to the talent of Phil Collins.

"..nothing in comparison" I disagree with. I absolutely think Hip Hop has artists on the same level as other genre's artists.

Hip hop has plenty of good writers. 2pac wasn't a greater from a classic sense, but damn he could write some songs.

It's an unfortunate cultural phenomenon, especially when you consider it arose primarily in the same country and among the same race that invented and developed jazz. Even more unfortunate is that kids worldwide have wasted their time listening to this.

Here are some of the problems I see with this music:

1. It demands too little of its participants. Jazz musicians may have rejected various techniques and forms, but they never exempted themselves from learning to master instruments and musical form. Now any kid with some equipment can call himself an "artist."

2. In terms of traditional musical elements (rhythm, harmony, melody) hip hop has contributed nothing, and even the reputed "underground" music is altogether lacking.

3. For the past two decades it has lacked thoughtful content. When was the last time a hip hop song was about something?

4. Lyrically, there has never been a competent artist who also pursued hip hop. I have checked far and wide, and I can't even find a third-rate poet who composed hip hop lyrics. And don't talk to me about "Tupac." He was better than average, but far from being a good writer.

5. Finally, and most importantly, the "culture" surrounding hip hop consists in nothing but ridiculous gestures, false pretense, and general slackness of character, posture, and attitude.

What about play on words, delivery, or flow? You don't feel Hip Hop has contributed in that way at all, kayjay?

Were people doing this before the 90's?

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To be fair, the critic is right.

The majority of hip hop is low artform like he says.

They have no great innovators. Like Pink Floyd to rock music. Jimi to blues. James to Soul. D'Angelo to neo-soul. Sabbath to metal. etc. etc.

Oh, and alot of the crap 'underground'...is......yeah you guessed it...crap.

Just a bunch of englishy nerds trying to rap.

2pac may not have the lyrics of a meth or monche, but dude can straight up spit and make some nice songs. Touching songs. Keep Ya Head up or Dear Mama isn't genius from a poet level...but in terms of affecting the masses...yeah those are ****ing bangers.

In summary, artists like 2pac> Wutank, Monch, Rakim etc.

Rapping aint as easy as it looks. Have you ever listened to Kobe Bryant or Roy Jones Jr. rap?? It cant be done effectively by everybody.

To be fair, the critic is right.

The majority of hip hop is low artform like he says.

They have no great innovators. Like Pink Floyd to rock music. Jimi to blues. James to Soul. D'Angelo to neo-soul. Sabbath to metal. etc. etc.

Oh, and alot of the crap 'underground'...is......yeah you guessed it...crap.

Just a bunch of englishy nerds trying to rap.

2pac may not have the lyrics of a meth or monche, but dude can straight up spit and make some nice songs. Touching songs. Keep Ya Head up or Dear Mama isn't genius from a poet level...but in terms of affecting the masses...yeah those are ****ing bangers.

In summary, artists like 2pac> Wutank, Monch, Rakim etc.


You are comparing Rakim to the Wu tang Clan and Pharoah Monch in the area of meaningful lyrics? :nonono: .


Tupac is emotional, but usually not that deep.

As I have said before, even the lyrics to the song In The Ghetto by Rakim are deeper than anything I have ever heard from Tupac.

Lupe Fiasco is an artist in every sense of the word.

It's an unfortunate cultural phenomenon, especially when you consider it arose primarily in the same country and among the same race that invented and developed jazz. Even more unfortunate is that kids worldwide have wasted their time listening to this.


Very bold statements here. All quite defensible as I see it.

I liken rap to a form of Urban-Folk, except that it hasn't inhereted any of the musical depth of the true Folk music.

Rap had more promise than it has delivered. It's now a si mple "Pop" event that will be swallowed over time.

I also liken rap to karaoke. It's often nothing more than a studio-created loop of sound that somebody puts vocals over. Not exactly the stuff that creates true musical legend, but is great for creating Urban Legend.

What about play on words, delivery, or flow? You don't feel Hip Hop has contributed in that way at all, kayjay?


Who's kayjay? :tapedshut :tapedshut

If hip hop has made a musical contribution it has to have something to do with "flow." I don't know how to place this concept, and I don't find it to be used consistently. But probably there's something to be said for it.

Who's kayjay? :tapedshut :tapedshut

If hip hop has made a musical contribution it has to have something to do with "flow." I don't know how to place this concept, and I don't find it to be used consistently. But probably there's something to be said for it.

shut it geronimo.

Hip Hop is the pinnacle of all music. Hip Hop is the ultimate art form. There are hints of every type of music you can think of in hip hop.

I admit it's been extremely hard to listen to the radio for at least a decade now with the exception of a few artist who've held it down for years. I strongly believe The Music Business has made an attempt to break are culture and art down to a science when hip hop is completely the opposite of a science, it's a lifestyle. Because of the business ventures that made many undeserving artist rich for the wrong reasons we've suffered a loss.. We are missing the main element "soul".

Now that the internet is taking the entire music industry by storm I believe you will hear some of the most creative innovative musical peices come from the world of hip hop.

In other words, we were at are best before selling out became so honorable, but all that is about to change. I can't count how many rappers complain about not having full freedom of expression.

Furthermore, hip hop is such a dominant art form wev'e remained one of the most if not the most popular genre of music to come about in the 20 century regardless of the lack of emotion and lyrical content.

Let's be realistic here.......... Hip Hop is known for it's violent nature but so is the UFC, Boxing, Quinton Tarrentino...... **** Steven King for that matter. It's funny how we are view as such a low art form but Carl Rove attempts to gain publicity by dressing as a rapper and acting a damn fool...... Why not Aerosmith ?..... or Phil Collins ?

Ok let talk about grammer, does the average American English proffesor or politician speak like someone from England would ? After all it is the English language. Why is it a word like "fat" can be translated as "phat" and all of a sudden the world is speaking the same language ? To be truthful hip hop may be the most ENTERTAINING form of art other than film known to man.

Hip Hop was and truly is a no holds barred art form ..... the only rule is that your **** be raw = *( tight, hard, dope, sick, ill, gangsta, crunk, beatin', etc..
Bottom line hip hop is the most universal art form known to man = 48 bars 3 hooks and a break. you may not want strings to put together a hard rock album and you may not need heavy guitars to conduct a symphony but put it in the studio with a hip hop producers and a rapper and if talented the result will be more heart felt than any Orchestra could ever be and more exciting than any rock song could be. Many times there is more creativity in 8 bars of a rap song than an entire song by Celine Dion, or Mettalica, etc.. not to mention the fact the most songs in other genres repeat the same 8 bars most of the damn song.

Ask Phil Collins to rap and play the guitar and see what you get. Let's be real here holding a 4 bar note versus filling in each beat with additive thought broken down into syllables.

I'm gonna touch on neutral turf here, take one of Emenim's versus of his Marshal Mathers LP and compare that with any other verse from any other genre of music and tell us how they match up as far as creativity, emotion, excitement, humor, and delivery...... He's just one of many.....


I think I've made my point.......You just don't like rap and it bothers you that the vast majority of the modern world Eat, Sleep, ****, and Breathe it.

Hip Hop is the pinnacle of all music. Hip Hop is the ultimate art form. There are hints of every type of music you can think of in hip hop.

I admit it's been extremely hard to listen to the radio for at least a decade now with the exception of a few artist who've held it down for years. I strongly believe The Music Business has made an attempt to break are culture and art down to a science when hip hop is completely the opposite of a science, it's a lifestyle. Because of the business ventures that made many undeserving artist rich for the wrong reasons we've suffered a loss.. We are missing the main element "soul".

Now that the internet is taking the entire music industry by storm I believe you will hear some of the most creative innovative musical peices come from the world of hip hop.

In other words, we were at are best before selling out became so honorable, but all that is about to change. I can't count how many rappers complain about not having full freedom of expression.

Furthermore, hip hop is such a dominant art form wev'e remained one of the most if not the most popular genre of music to come about in the 20 century regardless of the lack of emotion and lyrical content.

Let's be realistic here.......... Hip Hop is known for it's violent nature but so is the UFC, Boxing, Quinton Tarrentino...... **** Steven King for that matter. It's funny how we are view as such a low art form but Carl Rove attempts to gain publicity by dressing as a rapper and acting a damn fool...... Why not Aerosmith ?..... or Phil Collins ?

Ok let talk about grammer, does the average American English proffesor or politician speak like someone from England would ? After all it is the English language. Why is it a word like "fat" can be translated as "phat" and all of a sudden the world is speaking the same language ? To be truthful hip hop may be the most ENTERTAINING form of art other than film known to man.

Hip Hop was and truly is a no holds barred art form ..... the only rule is that your **** be raw = *( tight, hard, dope, sick, ill, gangsta, crunk, beatin', etc..
Bottom line hip hop is the most universal art form known to man = 48 bars 3 hooks and a break. you may not want strings to put together a hard rock album and you may not need heavy guitars to conduct a symphony but put it in the studio with a hip hop producers and a rapper and if talented the result will be more heart felt than any Orchestra could ever be and more exciting than any rock song could be. Many times there is more creativity in 8 bars of a rap song than an entire song by Celine Dion, or Mettalica, etc.. not to mention the fact the most songs in other genres repeat the same 8 bars most of the damn song.

Ask Phil Collins to rap and play the guitar and see what you get. Let's be real here holding a 4 bar note versus filling in each beat with additive thought broken down into syllables.

I'm gonna touch on neutral turf here, take one of Emenim's versus of his Marshal Mathers LP and compare that with any other verse from any other genre of music and tell us how they match up as far as creativity, emotion, excitement, humor, and delivery...... He's just one of many.....


I think I've made my point.......You just don't like rap and it bothers you that the vast majority of the modern world Eat, Sleep, ****, and Breathe it.




You make some great points, but the only problem i have in the statement i have highlighted is that you're comparing a whole genre of music to just one band.

If you listen to Metallica's 'Ride The Lightning' album, i can reverse your statement and say there is more Creativity in that 1 album then most rappers have in there whole careers. 'Fade To Black' for instance has a deep symphonical sound not to mention a breathtaking guitar solo, as the same in the 'Call of Ktulu', a 9 minute instumental track, with great musical arrangement.

This is followed and is evident in later albums, 'Master of puppets' and '....Justice For All', adding more acoustic melodies.

The reason i am defending the band, is that they are a favourite of mine, and that points in some threads are being contradicted in defending a genre which i highly respect, then putting other genres down in the same manner that if you don't like it....DON'T LISTEN to it.

Hip Hop is the pinnacle of all music. Hip Hop is the ultimate art form. There are hints of every type of music you can think of in hip hop.

I admit it's been extremely hard to listen to the radio for at least a decade now with the exception of a few artist who've held it down for years. I strongly believe The Music Business has made an attempt to break are culture and art down to a science when hip hop is completely the opposite of a science, it's a lifestyle. Because of the business ventures that made many undeserving artist rich for the wrong reasons we've suffered a loss.. We are missing the main element "soul".


This is a bunch of nonsense here.

Are you even familiar with traditional forms of music?

If you found good lyrics

simple, sick ****in story

Now I used to walk with the gun now I walk like a man
And I walk what I talk and I walk never ran
And I never say never but I mean hardly ever
And if shootin' is the solution then you're not that clever
If you don't know **** then you still know better
Human life is so precious it could never be measured
Have you ever had a load of it **** back the heat
Poppin' on the next ***** while he walkin' up the street
Trigger off safety spacin an opportunity
These *****z wanna waste me it ain't nothing new to me
Soon as he walked by I was ready to bust
But he just posted up like he was waitin' on the bus
Now I'm all punked up with a steroid trigger
Cause most of y'all are easy just some paranoid *****z
Used to walk with a gun but I never did use it
What's the point of holdin' heat if you ain't gon' shoot it
Stupid (*echos*)

*different instrumental kicks in*

[Verse 2 - MURS]
It was a late night sunset me and him out
Lookin' at the ladies tryin to come up on some trim
Everybody wildin' out cause the summer's about to end
He had the hypnotic he was mixin with the hen'
Off that mean green laid back with the deep lean on low pro ****
That's how we rolled on the scene
Two girls lookin' probably in they late teens
But these days you can't tell but I figured what the hell
So we yell out: Hey girl, they yell back
Maybe two in the front maybe two in the back
But they had this dark tint couldn't see through the black
We roll up ask 'em where their party at
They just start to laugh and I knew it was a trap
But I couldn't roll out cause the strip was so packed
Now I'm lookin at this ***** in this mother****in' hat
Start talkin' that bull**** like we was on some bull****
My ***** used to bang but we ain't on no thug ****
I tried to dismantle it but you know Los Angeles
This ***** kept talkin' so my boy had to handle it
He jumped out the Lex snatched the dude at his hat
I put it in park jumped out to get his back
But as I did that, I heared two shots
I turned to my right and I seen my dude drop
Time stopped, couldn't believe what I seen
I was struck by reality when the two girls screamed
I saw his killer stand up put the gun in his jeans
Saw him wince from the pain as the heat burned his waist
Then he turned up the block disappeared without a trace
I remember his face but what I remember most
Was when I got to my knees and held my ***** close
And asked not to leave us in the name of Christ Jesus
But he's gone and all I got left is his blood on my sneakers

[Hook - MURS][2X]
It was a year to this day that my best friend died
For weeks I sat alone in my room and cried
And I tried to pretend everything was fine
But my soul couldn't rest until vengeance was mine

*another different instrumental kicks in*

[Verse 3 - MURS]
The day began with me standin' at his grave with his mother
His old girlfriend, his two younger brothers
We said a few words faces covered with tears
How we missed him so much and we wished he was here
Then his girl said a poem put some roses on his stone
And we said our goodbyes and they all went home
I thought I'd use this time for me and him to be alone
I broke out the Hen' poured a little out for him
Told him who was gettin' married, who had went to the pen
How the homie named his newborn son after him
But as the sun went down the talk came to an end
So I said a quick prayer..amen
And I shook in the lac' plus the well wrote tracks
And I headed up saw the homie Eyezeer
I asked him what he doin' he was way out of bound
That he had a freak that lived on that side of town
He always kept the heat just in case it went down
A clown, I rolled down my window 'bout to light a ciga-
Hey! Is that that ***** that...hey give me the mother****ing gun
Man, drive around the block and post up for a minute
If I hit you on the chirp hit the corner ***** bend it
Splendid now with vengeance in my grasp
I couldn't dream of a better day for me to catch his ass
Slippin while he dippin into the ride by himself
I slid up behind him in the shadows hella stealth
He started to break himself I said I didn't want a dime
Remember what you was doin' last year at this time
He looked into my eyes with both shock and surprise
When I split his face with the Glock right before he could reply
He cried, as I pressed the heat against his cheek
Then I squoze two times for the homie rest in peace

[Hook - MURS]
It was a year to this day that my best friend died
For weeks I sat alone in my room and cried
And I tried to pretend everything was fine
But my soul couldn't rest until vengeance was mine
It was a year to this day that my best friend died
For weeks I sat alone in my room and cried
And I thought that's what I wanted until the problem was confronted
Now I'm haunted by remorse that I wished I hadn't done it...(****)

You make some great points, but the only problem i have in the statement i have highlighted is that you're comparing a whole genre of music to just one band.

If you listen to Metallica's 'Ride The Lightning' album, i can reverse your statement and say there is more Creativity in that 1 album then most rappers have in there whole careers. 'Fade To Black' for instance has a deep symphonical sound not to mention a breathtaking guitar solo, as the same in the 'Call of Ktulu', a 9 minute instumental track, with great musical arrangement.

This is followed and is evident in later albums, 'Master of puppets' and '....Justice For All', adding more acoustic melodies.

The reason i am defending the band, is that they are a favourite of mine, and that points in some threads are being contradicted in defending a genre which i highly respect, then putting other genres down in the same manner that if you don't like it....DON'T LISTEN to it.

I didn't mean to pick on one band and I may have over exaggerated a bit, but I think you get the just of what I'm saying.

I've rapped on beats that have had samples from some of Mettalicas music on it so I got no beef with them imp articular just gotta problem with ol' boy insulting my entire culture.

I hate rap

This is a bunch of nonsense here.

Are you even familiar with traditional forms of music?

Let's be honest is anybody in here other than you familiar with traditional forms of music ? If the **** was so much better maybe I'd care a bit but it doesn't move me. This is classic Conservative / Liberal debating, you are trying to convince a HIP HOP world that Hip Hop is a low art form (crap).

Question if traditional music is so far advanced why is there not a traditional music section on this forum where you can go and bash Hip Hop all day ?

Instead you have to go to a Hip Hop forum to express your differences in taste because your stuck in the past. Fact is as an aspiring Hip Hop ARTIST myself I appreciate all genres of music and I don't want to be limited to just a Hip Hop selection when I'm rollin'.

Basically if you have a problem with hip hop stay out of the hip hop forums.

Don't get uppity, boy.

This is an open forum and I will express my views on it.

Don't get uppity, boy.

This is an open forum and I will express my views on it.

Uppity I've noticed that everytime somebody replies with opposing views you accuse them of getting uppity or mad. Maybe you should calm ya self down lil' BOY.

Chop it up like a man would. I don't care how you feel personally BOY !!!..... but if you diss my culture I will respond and you may not like it...

Now sheeww !!! or make your ****in point BOY !!!

I see listening to traditional music doesn't make you any smarter than rap does because your intellectual side just went out the window.....didn't it :boxing: lol !

Uhhhhh did my intellectual side go anywhere?

You wouldn't know what I'd like. You're in my world, playing my games.

I only accused the ignorant ones of getting uppity or mad, the ones who were incapable of discussing a PARTICULAR popular musical form from a wider, more cultured perspective. There were a few exceptions.

And why do you type 'lol' when you're not laughing?

Uhhhhh did my intellectual side go anywhere?

You wouldn't know what I'd like. You're in my world, playing my games.

I only accused the ignorant ones of getting uppity or mad, the ones who were incapable of discussing a PARTICULAR popular musical form from a wider, more cultured perspective. There were a few exceptions.

And why do you type 'lol' when you're not laughing?

You are sadly mistaken my friend...... I'm truly enjoying this we can debate water vs fire if you'd like but I did get offended by you calling me boy (American History). Any way all bull**** aside do you have any responses to my previouse post on the issue or not ?

Reality check.... it may have been your world at one point in time but I'm here now you can rest now or only suffer the humiliation of continuously being out witted.........:boxing: :owned:

I'm waiting.........

I had other **** to do and didn't wait around thirty minutes for you to reply.

Let me tell you this much, if the word 'boy' offended you so easily, you don't stand much of a chance. So cut your losses now and walk on brother man.

I had other **** to do and didn't wait around thirty minutes for you to reply.

Let me tell you this much, if the word 'boy' offended you so easily, you don't stand much of a chance. So cut your losses now and walk on brother man.

SO I SUPPOSE YOU FORFEIT.

It's funny to me how open you were with you thoughts when you started this thread and now your like a cranky turtle curled up in his shell. I'm not here to offend you I'm just defending my point of views.

You went str8 republican on me and spun this thing totally off the issue.

Your coming off as one of those smart dumb guys.

If your next reply isn't on the issue I'm out :boxing:

What is the issue, your question about why there is no "traditional music" forum on this website?

Do you really want me to answer a stupid sociological question like that? It has nothing to do with music, only to do with the demographics of the boxing public.

I have a question as well: have you ever actually 'pimped'? Because if you haven't, and yet invented that for an internet persona, it would only go to prove my point #5 of the thread-opening post.

I have a question as well: have you ever actually 'pimped'? Because if you haven't, and yet invented that for an internet persona, it would only go to prove my point #5 of the thread-opening post.

Now your criticizing my name.....

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**** that gay ass rap music.



:headbang:

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Mike Tyson...keep your ***** ass outta here. You cant really be a tyson fan, we dont believe you (you need more people).

Threadstarter is an idiot....red K his ***** ass up (and yes, i know this thread is old)

If anything hip hop can be one of the most complex and complicated forms of music. Ill be the first to admit that some of it is straight up garbage and nonsense, but the first rapper that comes to mind when im trying to think of someone who represents hip hop in a positive way and demonstrates that...their is an art to rap, its something not everyone is born with...i think of nas. Since Illmatic nas has displayed a thought process thats original and very difficult to copy.

It is a FACT that hip hop is a HIGH artform, **** what ya heard. Its one of the highest artforms. Complex poetry put to rhythm >>>

How can poetry combined with music = a low art form?!

Kayjay is a white supremacist, weird since they are the people who raped and pillaged his ancestors. He had an unfortunate incident as a kid when 2 black guys violated his butt and now hes bitter.