Lewis, overated or a true Heavyweight great? [Archive]

MetalVomit

10-26-2004, 05:29 PM

He's top 10 no doubt. Lewis like Holmes will not be apricated until he's been gone awhile. People let there personal feelings get in the way when talking about Lewis, cause they dont like him as aperson or think he was boring they dont give him as much credit as he deserves, but at the end of the day his resume is as good as any heavyweight who has ever fought.

His numbers stack up against anyone

Gold Medal
3 Time heavyweight Champion(Holyfield and Ali are the other two)
16 Title defenses over 10 years(3rd behind Louis and Holmes)
Beaten every man he has every fought(Only Marciano can say that)

He's in the 5-10 range and should always be put above Holyfield and Tyson.

my personal haterd for Lennox gets in the way definently. Too ****y for someone with a suspect chin, very talented though. I dont knock his accomplishments, just think he's a jerk off. I wouldnt put him above Holyfield though.

Yarmez

10-26-2004, 05:35 PM

my personal haterd for Lennox gets in the way definently. Too ****y for someone with a suspect chin, very talented though. I dont knock his accomplishments, just think he's a jerk off. I wouldnt put him above Holyfield though.

He beat holyfield!, why wouldn't you rank him higher?

spinksjinx

10-26-2004, 05:35 PM

Neuraxis

10-26-2004, 05:38 PM

How can all of these people not have Lewis in the top 10?

dbacksdude1z

10-26-2004, 05:39 PM

The Mans Beaten Everyone Hes Fought

Sir_Jose

10-26-2004, 05:39 PM

MetalVomit

10-26-2004, 05:45 PM

He beat holyfield!, why wouldn't you rank him higher?

so is Antonio Tarver better than Roy Jones because he KO'd him? Like I said, dont take my opinion to heart, i am biased. Dont like Lewis. However, I think Evander was greater than him.

SonnyG8R

10-26-2004, 05:46 PM

Michael Spinks-Deny it all you want but this guy was damn good

He wasn't in the top 50 Heavyweights.

He is unquestionably top 5 Light Heavies.

oldgringo

10-26-2004, 05:46 PM

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Marciano
Foreman
Johnson
Dempsey
Frazier
Holyfield
Tyson/Lewis
Liston/Norton

Lewis will certainly be appreciated more in time. What I most liked about him is that he somewhat avenged his losses like any great fighter should try and do (even though McCall was just a complete wackjob).

SonnyG8R

10-26-2004, 05:47 PM

Spinks dont belong top ten at heavy no way. Most felt he was lucky in the Holmes fights and he got destroyed by Tsyon. However Spinks is a legand at Light Heavy and is top 3 all time with Charles and Moore

****er, you beat me to it.

marvdave

10-26-2004, 05:49 PM

I've got lennox right around top ten. He was a damn good fighter and deserves respect. He fought everyone and ducked nobody. His lack of committment to training cost him dearly and I think turns people off. He was out of shape and lazy quite abit, but when he was on, he was great. The theory of his weak chin is exaggerated as well. He took big shots from from good punchers throughout his career. He avenged both loses and kept rolling.
Another thing I like about Lewis is that he retired on top.

Sir_Jose

10-26-2004, 05:49 PM

McCall breaking down was not his fault so I dont see how that can be held against him, it was completely out of his controll

oldgringo

10-26-2004, 05:56 PM

McCall breaking down was not his fault so I dont see how that can be held against him, it was completely out of his controll

Of course it was out of his control...but it always seemed to me that McCall may have had Lennys number. Even though theres not enough evidence of that...

spinksjinx

10-26-2004, 05:58 PM

As the holmes statement was made, EVERYONE trashed him as champ and now he is regarded as champ, Holmes said **** the public, you will respect me when im gone....They did remember the division after holmes? Lewis dominated for so long and said the same thing as holmes and now look at the division. We are in a transitional period and lost one of the greatest fighters in the heavyweight division in the past 25-30 years....

Great

10-26-2004, 06:06 PM

Lewis the place in the best 10 unequivocally deserves.
Let's recollect, that about it has told Foreman: " It I and Ali in one person ".
Let's recollect, that has told about Lennox Muhammad: " Earlier I was the Greatest, and now he " (not word for word).

Dr.Depravity

10-26-2004, 06:23 PM

I dunno bout top ten. Top 20 for sure.

hollister

10-26-2004, 08:07 PM

To me, Lewis is in the same class as the Klits, but with more confidence than Wlad, and a little more coordination than VK. He was able to use his reach and his weight pretty effectively, but he held too much for my taste, and some of his tactics were dirty. I doubt I will ever appreciate him more than I do now, nor will I ever compare his situation to that of Larry Holmes. Holmes was a great fighter, a gracefull boxer with a great right hand who wasn't appreciated because of fighting right after Ali. Lewis is a lumbering clod who hits hard when he can keep his opponent on the outside, and wrestles when he can't. I believe Holyfield was a much better fighter than Lewis in terms of stamina and skill, not to mention chin, he just lacked power. Lewis was a good fighter, but not nearly as good as he would have you believe.

SonnyG8R

10-26-2004, 08:14 PM

Bubba Chunday

10-26-2004, 08:27 PM

dempseyfire

10-26-2004, 08:30 PM

Bubba Chunday

10-26-2004, 08:33 PM

Boxing is not about stats its about the depth and quality of the era you fought in and how you handled himself. Lewis fought in a weak era (although compared to now it seems like a golden age) and still managed to get KO'd twice by two C-list fighters, deserved no more then a draw against an overweight 35 year old Ray Mercer, and the Holyfield rematch coulda gone either way. He also never fought a 15 round fight and showed stamina problems and fatigue in many of his tougher fights. He did manage to stay on top for awhile and for that he's somewhere in the 11-15 range on my all time ranking.
Id agree. I think Holyfield and especially Tyson were WAY passed thier best. Not his fault i know, but those are the biggest names he fought.

phallus

10-26-2004, 11:00 PM

i think Lennox just barely makes the top 20, but like the others said,
it's not his fault he came up in a weak time for the heavyweight division

whdempsey

10-26-2004, 11:48 PM

He's in the 5-10 range and should always be put above Holyfield and Tyson.
No he shouldn't. Tyson is one thing, Holyfield another. Don't forget, he beat both of them when they were old, and most guys say would have lost to them when they were younger. Furthermore, although I strongly disagree with the draw in their first fight, Holyfield won the rematch on my scorecards. Also, although it's clear that Holyfield has detiorated very much, most of his losses (except the ones to Toney, Byrd, and what should have been a loss against Lewis) it should be noted his others were extremely controversial. Also, Holyfield's two losses earlier in his career came on nights when he should not have been in the ring. With his heart problem against Moorer, and the Hepatitis A he suffered from in the rubber match with Bowe, it's very easy to argue that at his best, Holyfield would have beaten anyone he ever faced. Of course, technically Lewis did beat everyone he ever faced, but only technically in the minds of most fans.

whdempsey

10-26-2004, 11:52 PM

Are you dislexic or something?
I'll bet money he's ESL.

Dynamite76

10-27-2004, 12:04 AM

I feel that Lewis is in the top 15 heavys.He is somewhat overrated but he deserves his rightful place with the greats.It's a shame he never met Bowe when he should have(though at that time, Bowe might have beaten him)but that shouldn't take away his place.

whdempsey

10-27-2004, 12:15 AM

Underrated fighter in a b-c class level of fighters, But you cant say that or even use that an arguement...Lewis cannot help when he was born and had no choice on when to fight, Marciano fought in one of the ****tiest times in HW history and he beat EVERYBODY! As did lewis and fought all the big names as well and beat them convincingly.

Lewis deserves to be in the top 10

Louis
Holmes
Ali
Holyfield
Foreman
Lewis
Frazier
Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Ken Norton
Michael Spinks-Deny it all you want but this guy was damn good
Mike Tyson-Short lived but loved every ounce of it to carry over for 15 years in peoples minds

Liston,walcott,schmelling,dempsey and a few others rank up their this is no particular order but just some of the top heavyweights of all time.

So precisely who didn't you name? I mean, Ken Norton? Patterson? And Spinks doesn't deserve to be ranked highly at heavyweight. Lightheavy is one thing. Heavyweight is totally different. He didn't do a ton at heavy. Schmeling? The same man who won his title by DQ and lost it in the rematch? Good fighters, all, sure, but deadly serious, you're not supposed to just name every heavy you think of.

1) Louis - this is a preference of power of moving.
2)Ali - He could be in first place too.
3)Marciano - A weak period in the division, but he still deserves a high ranking for never being defeated.
4)Dempsey - If he had one the title a year or two earlier he could have defended the title twenty times instead of just six. His inactivity during his title reign hurts him, but the Long Count and the fact that he has more one round knockouts than any either heavyweight champ don't.
5)Holyfield - The fact that most of his losses came when he was old, were controversial, or can be explained by pre-existing conditions. That means a lot to me, and I don't care if you disagree, so don't bother.
6)Holmes - Great fighter with an awesome legacy, but unfortunately a few too many controversial wins for my taste.
7)Frazier - Best one-handed fighter in division history.
8)Johnson - Big ass, hard-hitting cat of a champ.
9)Foreman - Was a good fighter in both careers, but never truly a complete one.
10)Charles - He was on the downside of a great career by the time he was champ, but his activity level says something. Something serious.
11)Walcott - A guy who had too many off-nights to be ranked higher, but he could probably have beaten anyone else on this list at one point or another.
12)Lewis - If you wanna rank him at ten or at fifteen, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but I don't think he deserves to go any higher or lower. Don't forget, his record says he held the title three times. The linear championship says once. Still, he was a classy fighter whose absolute worth will probably never be known because of the politics that plagued his early career.
13)Liston - I don't have a problem with a higher ranking, but the power-punching champ didn't live up to expectations as far as I'm concerned.
14)Jeffries - Big ass bear of a man. If he had done more when he was at his peak he likely would have been ranked higher.
15)Fitzsimmons - Because I'm a small fighter who likes to beat on heavyweights, little guys like Fitzy get a lotta credit from me. Still, he wasn't that successful as a champ, although being the first three division titlist means he was special.

That's my top fifteen. I know, I know, I probably should have stopped earlier, but once I get rollin on something like this, there's just no stemming the tide.

Boxerdog

10-27-2004, 12:19 AM

Top 25 maybe...your basic freak of nature.

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 02:01 AM

some of this stuff is just flat out comedy

He also never fought a 15 round fight

wow I guess everyone from now until the end of time will have this held against them huh

4)Dempsey - If he had one the title a year or two earlier he could have defended the title twenty times instead of just six. His inactivity during his title reign hurts him, but the Long Count and the fact that he has more one round knockouts than any either heavyweight champ don't.

Inactive? maybe cause he was shamelessy ducking all the top black fighters

No he shouldn't. Tyson is one thing, Holyfield another. Don't forget, he beat both of them when they were old, and most guys say would have lost to them when they were younger. Furthermore, although I strongly disagree with the draw in their first fight, Holyfield won the rematch on my scorecards. Also, although it's clear that Holyfield has detiorated very much, most of his losses (except the ones to Toney, Byrd, and what should have been a loss against Lewis) it should be noted his others were extremely controversial. Also, Holyfield's two losses earlier in his career came on nights when he should not have been in the ring. With his heart problem against Moorer, and the Hepatitis A he suffered from in the rubber match with Bowe, it's very easy to argue that at his best, Holyfield would have beaten anyone he ever faced. Of course, technically Lewis did beat everyone he ever faced, but only technically in the minds of most fans.

mmmpppfffpppmmm*slurp*ppmmmffmmm Oh Evander mmmmpppmmmffffmmmm*slurp*

Torino

10-27-2004, 02:16 AM

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 02:39 AM

I don't know if I agree with Lewis being a top ten of all time, but certainly top 15. He was a good champion with exceptional skills. what burns me about Lewis is that he dumped his belts rather than fight Ruiz or Byrd. IMO it tarnished his career.

I don't care who the champion is, I don't agree with ANY reason, money or whatever, for dumping a title. I think it's disrespectful not only to the sport of boxing, but the fans, and champions that held the belt before them. It's goes against the spirit of what the title represents.

The other thing that bothers me about Lewis is, although he won the first fight, He "escaped" into retirement without rematching Vitali. That left a lot of unanswered questions. Lewis won the fight fair and square, but the questions that remain are about Lewis, not Vitali.

Whats disrespectfull to fans is fighting mandatories rather than trying to make the big fights happen. Jon Ruiz wasn't even the #1 contender for his belt when he gave it up. That was nothing but politics that caused those two things to happen, thats the era we live in.

and there is no need for a rematch when you win fair and sqare and um...Didn't Vitali quit in one of his fights?.

Torino

10-27-2004, 02:58 AM

Whats disrespectfull to fans is fighting mandatories rather than trying to make the big fights happen. Jon Ruiz wasn't even the #1 contender for his belt when he gave it up. That was nothing but politics that caused those two things to happen, thats the era we live in.

and there is no need for a rematch when you win fair and sqare and um...Didn't Vitali quit in one of his fights?.
The truth is still hitting that nerve huh? You should give that wound some time to heal.

Why do you need to get hit in the face with a skunk three times before you smell it? READ MY POSTS! I said, there are unanswered questions about Lewis, in his fight with Vitali. The topic isnt about an old Vitali fight, and that has nothing to do with Lewis VS. Vitali.

You either can't read well or you are still twisting the truth.

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 03:08 AM

The truth is still hitting that nerve huh? You should give that wound some time to heal.

Why do you need to get hit in the face with a skunk three times before you smell it? READ MY POSTS! I said, there are unanswered questions about Lewis, in his fight with Vitali. The topic isnt about an old Vitali fight, and that has nothing to do with Lewis VS. Vitali.

You either can't read well or you are still twisting the truth.

what truth is htting hard?

You dont even know what surounded him losing those belts.

unanswered questions?...maybe for you. After 100's of amature fights, 40+ pro fights, a 15 year career and 19 World Title fights there are really no more questions left to answer. Were pretty much gonna know all we want about a guy if he has a career like that.

We've been down this road and it never ends good for you. Your gonna get like 10 people disagreaing with you, your gonna run back to ******** with your tail between your legs and after a few weeks you'll come back...etc.

your bringing nothing to the table over here.

Great

10-27-2004, 04:21 AM

Are you dislexic or something?
Both that and another:).
English for me the second language.

Ivansmamma

10-27-2004, 04:31 AM

Lewis dosen't place in top ten, maybe fiften. Certainely not in top five where he places himself.

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 04:34 AM

Lewis dosen't place in top ten, maybe fiften. Certainely not in top five where he places himself.

Why does the term "Ivans Momma" sound so framilar to me?

Soundtraveler

10-27-2004, 04:35 AM

You cannot deny a fighter who rules a division for a decade, you have to give him his props. Especially if that division is the Heavyweight division.

Lennox Lewis put away an impressive list of fighters, he was never a loud "in your face" kind of fighter, but rather, a quiet almost "Zen" like confident fighter who let his fists speak for him. While others considered him arrogant, I considered it refreshing.

After spending a couple of evenings talking with Emanual Steward, I can tell you that Emanual says of Lennox, "of all the fighters I have trained, he is the strongest natural fighter of them all". He said in fact that Lennox does not lift weights, in fact he does little more than sit ups and pull ups along with sparring while in training, he is just a naturally big strong man, and a very agile one at that, with great speed.

Now, if a Hall of Fame trainer like Mr. Steward tells you that Lewis is a top 10 of all time Champion, who am I (or you) to argue? Emanual is a walking, talking, breathing, boxing encyclopedia. The man knows more about the sport and it's history than any of us will EVER know. If you ever get the chance to pick his brain, or even merely have the chance to sit and listen to this man talk boxing over dinner, you too will be astonished as I was...

Great

10-27-2004, 04:40 AM

Lewis dosen't place in top ten, maybe fiften. Certainely not in top five where he places himself.
Why not? Lennox beat each guy whom met in the career. He one of three boxers (heavyweight) which have retired holding a title.

anthetamine

10-27-2004, 05:24 AM

lewis does belong in the top 10, i would put him above marciano on size alone

and i dont think people are rating tyson highly enough either, he was a total power house who would crush frazier and lewis in his prime

just look at the holmes fight

1) louis
2) ali
3) holmes
4) tyson
5) foreman
6) holyfield
7) lewis
8) marciano
9) frazier
10) dempsey

Great

10-27-2004, 05:33 AM

6) holyfield
7) lewis

To me it is not clear why Evander before Lewis.

anthetamine

10-27-2004, 06:48 AM

Im not to sure, if you take these two at their best i believe that it would have been different than when they actually met

i dont think either were anywhere near as good as tyson at best though

maybe lewis does appear before holyfield, im not to sure, I have seen more of lewis, and seen more faults along the way, i cant really side with either

J !

10-27-2004, 08:06 AM

YES HE IS TOP TEN UNDOUTEDLY, history will judge him as such as they did with Holmes, its the similar thing, technical fighters who maybe arent as high on the excitement as the likes of Marciano (whom I would like to point while retiring unbeaten 42 of those fights were non title affairs in some case against very quiestionable opposition (43 kos but yeah against who!) So in my view he wouldnt bew above Lewis for starters Lennox faced tougher oppostion than Marciano over the course of his whole career it was only latter fights where Marciano fought names most of whom were past their best. So who was in the weak era?

Just one example I could go on to pick holes in all of them but its a futile argument but is Lennox top ten **** me yes he is without a shadow of doubt.

Great

10-27-2004, 08:23 AM

Im not to sure, if you take these two at their best i believe that it would have been different than when they actually met

maybe lewis does appear before holyfield, im not to sure, I have seen more of lewis, and seen more faults along the way, i cant really side with either
Holyfield was in the fine shape during the second fight with Lewis (despite of age). Lewis should be above. Enough to look at their records.

Great

10-27-2004, 08:28 AM

i dont think either were anywhere near as good as tyson at best though

Self Tyson does not think that.

bigpappy

10-27-2004, 08:34 AM

He's top 10 no doubt. Lewis like Holmes will not be apricated until he's been gone awhile. People let there personal feelings get in the way when talking about Lewis, cause they dont like him as aperson or think he was boring they dont give him as much credit as he deserves, but at the end of the day his resume is as good as any heavyweight who has ever fought.

His numbers stack up against anyone

Gold Medal
3 Time heavyweight Champion(Holyfield and Ali are the other two)
16 Title defenses over 10 years(3rd behind Louis and Holmes)
Beaten every man he has every fought(Only Marciano can say that)

He's in the 5-10 range and should always be put above Holyfield and Tyson.

actually marciano was undefeated lewis was defeated twice. yes i know he came back to avenge his losses.

jabsRstiff

10-27-2004, 08:39 AM

Lewis belongs in the top ten. Not the top five....but definitely the top ten.

As for Holyfield....
Tough to place him. He was INCONSISTENT at heavyweight. One great performance could be followed by a loss, or a dud.
& everyone started rating him highly after he beat a FRAUD in Mike Tyson.
That version of Tyson.....had gotten back on top by beating a bunch of terrified dip****s.

As a lb4lber....Evander is a TRUE GREAT, however.

Boxerdog

10-27-2004, 08:46 AM

After spending a couple of evenings talking with Emanual Steward, I can tell you that Emanual says of Lennox, "of all the fighters I have trained, he is the strongest natural fighter of them all".

Now, if a Hall of Fame trainer like Mr. Steward tells you that Lewis is a top 10 of all time Champion, who am I (or you) to argue? Emanual is a walking, talking, breathing, boxing encyclopedia. The man knows more about the sport and it's history than any of us will EVER know. If you ever get the chance to pick his brain, or even merely have the chance to sit and listen to this man talk boxing over dinner, you too will be astonished as I was...

Stewart is senile.

jabsRstiff

10-27-2004, 08:48 AM

Stewart knows his ****, totally.....but he's also VERY BIASED when it comes to Lennox.

I don't listen to him when it comes to his own people.

J !

10-27-2004, 08:54 AM

stewarD!!!! yeah he does know his stuff but he is a bit of a whore when it comes to jumping camps, be interesting to know his take now lewis is retired. read not so long ago he called lennox a coward when he was trainign the Klits, thats piss poor form in my book. You cant spend ten years with someone then turn on them cos they have retired. For that reason only and his lack of respect for Lennox's future and decision I lost a lot of respect for Manny as a person.

bigpappy

10-27-2004, 08:57 AM

Stewart knows his ****, totally.....but he's also VERY BIASED when it comes to Lennox.

I don't listen to him when it comes to his own people.

you beat me to it i was gonna say the same thing.

bigpappy

10-27-2004, 08:58 AM

J !

10-27-2004, 08:59 AM

:mad: :mad: ;)
leave lenn alone! :D

PBDS

10-27-2004, 10:03 AM

I don't care for Lennox or his attitude one bit. I think is a royal *******. However, I still think he is in the top ten.

riz

10-27-2004, 10:23 AM

lennox beat everyone he ever fought because he never gave anyone a rematch. when he "beat" klitsckho, he said he was going to give a rematch. i knew he wouldn't because he knew that klitschko would knock him into next week. when there was a draw or a loss they gave lennox a rematch, because thats what a man does

guru

10-27-2004, 10:33 AM

lewis is top 10..... as jabs said, holy was very up and down... holy was given the title by douglas, he then defended againt two 40 year olds and a journeymen before losing to bowe....

jack_the_rippuh

10-27-2004, 10:45 AM

Heavy List...
1. John Ruiz
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Evander Holyfield
5. Michael Moorer
6. Ken Norton
7. Joe Frazier
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Hasim Rahman
10. Danny Williams
Honorable Mentions:
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
David Tua
Roy Jones Jr.
and some other losers who couldn't make the list..

nohero

10-27-2004, 11:06 AM

I used to say "no way" to him being top 10 because I do truly believe he is overrated by today's fan. Any who says he beat everyone he faced you might recall McCall? The Rahman loss he avenged but the win against McCall was hardly Lewis' doing... McCall beat himself by having a nervous breakdown. So I'll always say McCall bested him, and McCall was a crackhead...

However... whenever I try and sit down and seriously arrange my top 10 all-time I truly have a lot of trouble putting more than 8 fighters ahead of him... and that's even with my dislike for him. Truth is, no matter how you slice it, he was a damn good fighter and does hold a lot of accomplishments.

It hurts me to admit it but I would put Lewis top 10... anywhere from 7-10 really would be acceptable I think. Anyone putting him top 5 makes me cringe, I can't understand anyone who would do this but everyone has an opinion.

dempseyfire

10-27-2004, 11:30 AM

10 ahead of him? Easy
Here's 11
In no pat. order

Joe Louis
Cassius Clay/Ali
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Joe Frazier
Rocky Marciano
Sonny Liston
Jim Jefferies/Evander Holyfield
I'd also put Jersey Joe Walcott and maybe Max Schmeling ahead of Lewis so Lennox comes in at around 13 all time, which is not bad at all . . .

jabsRstiff

10-27-2004, 11:34 AM

marvdave

10-27-2004, 12:25 PM

I don't know if I agree with Lewis being a top ten of all time, but certainly top 15. He was a good champion with exceptional skills. what burns me about Lewis is that he dumped his belts rather than fight Ruiz or Byrd. IMO it tarnished his career.

I don't care who the champion is, I don't agree with ANY reason, money or whatever, for dumping a title. I think it's disrespectful not only to the sport of boxing, but the fans, and champions that held the belt before them. It's goes against the spirit of what the title represents.

The other thing that bothers me about Lewis is, although he won the first fight, He "escaped" into retirement without rematching Vitali. That left a lot of unanswered questions. Lewis won the fight fair and square, but the questions that remain are about Lewis, not Vitali.

I don't think your reading the post, and your twisting the words around to fit your own agenda. :D

dansweeney

10-27-2004, 12:51 PM

Lewis was good but he didnt fight a prime tyson,holyfield or bowe,if he fought any of these guys in his prime he would have lost

jabsRstiff

10-27-2004, 12:53 PM

Lewis was good but he didnt fight a prime tyson,holyfield or bowe,if he fought any of these guys in his prime he would have lost

Mike Tyson didn't fight a prime ANYONE.

Prime Larry Holmes would have embarrassed him....& made him quit.

jack_the_rippuh

10-27-2004, 12:58 PM

Lol...he fought prime Bowe...in the olympics, but he fought him.

Neuraxis

10-27-2004, 01:48 PM

Lewis was good but he didnt fight a prime tyson,holyfield or bowe,if he fought any of these guys in his prime he would have lost

Does anyone know why Bowe gave up his WBC belt after he beat Holyfield for the first time so he wouldn't have to fight Lewis.

Great

10-27-2004, 02:16 PM

Does anyone know why Bowe gave up his WBC belt after he beat Holyfield for the first time so he wouldn't have to fight Lewis.
Lewis knock him out on Olympic Games in 1988.

Great

10-27-2004, 02:29 PM

Lewis was good but he didnt fight a prime tyson,holyfield or bowe,if he fought any of these guys in his prime he would have lost
You so think? King has paid 4 million that Tyson did not go in a ring with Lennox. Why? Because King realized, that Mikes chances a small. Riddick has refused a champion belt, when has heard about meeting with Lewis. On Holyfield pressed repeatedly for his agreed to a fight. These guys simply were afraid. Therefore it is not guilty Lennox in " he didnt fight a prime tyson... "

dempseyfire

10-27-2004, 02:52 PM

Dempsey....

No offense....but Scmeling ?

He won his title by DQ......& beat a green Louis,

yes, Max is obviously better than my above comments appear to make him out to be..

But, there's NO WAY he's better than Lewis.
Lewis has the better accomplishments for sure, but beating a 22 yr old Joe Louis is FAR more impressive then any of Lennox's wins (he never had a great win-an old Holyfield who he arguably lost to in the rematch? Tommy Morrison? Razor Ruddock?) He also got robbed against Sharkey who is also better then any of Lewis's opponents. Schmeling was a better fighter then Lewis but agreed his overall resume prob. doesn't stack up-I'd probably put him right behind Lewis.

Regarding Lewis-Bowe; I don't believe Bowe was 'scared' of Lewis. He was beating Lewis up pretty badly before he got rocked and given a horrible stoppage in the Olympics. He and Lewis were already in negotitiations for a match in 1994 but Lewis lost to McCall. Was he ducking him in 1991? Possibly, but Rock Newman always did erratic things like that and they were looking for some easy paydays after he won the title. Lewis also gave up a belt to avoid Chris Byrd, who was seen as much more dangerous at the time then he is currently. Was he 'afraid' of Byrd-I don't think so.

realheavyhands

10-27-2004, 03:25 PM

holmes most underrated eva so is tyson by true boxing knowledgable enthusiests

SonnyG8R

10-27-2004, 03:50 PM

Both that and another:).
English for me the second language.

In that case I guess you're forgiven. I couldn't understand a word you said, but If I tried to converse in Spanish, the only other language I speak, albeit poorly, I doubt I'd be understood very well either.

dbacksdude1z

10-27-2004, 03:54 PM

y are u even on this site than

Great

10-27-2004, 04:02 PM

In that case I guess you're forgiven. I couldn't understand a word you said, but If I tried to converse in Spanish, the only other language I speak, albeit poorly, I doubt I'd be understood very well either.
Thank for understanding.

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 05:31 PM

Lewis has the better accomplishments for sure, but beating a 22 yr old Joe Louis is FAR more impressive then any of Lennox's wins (he never had a great win-an old Holyfield who he arguably lost to in the rematch? Tommy Morrison? Razor Ruddock?) He also got robbed against Sharkey who is also better then any of Lewis's opponents. Schmeling was a better fighter then Lewis but agreed his overall resume prob. doesn't stack up-I'd probably put him right behind Lewis.

Regarding Lewis-Bowe; I don't believe Bowe was 'scared' of Lewis. He was beating Lewis up pretty badly before he got rocked and given a horrible stoppage in the Olympics. He and Lewis were already in negotitiations for a match in 1994 but Lewis lost to McCall. Was he ducking him in 1991? Possibly, but Rock Newman always did erratic things like that and they were looking for some easy paydays after he won the title. Lewis also gave up a belt to avoid Chris Byrd, who was seen as much more dangerous at the time then he is currently. Was he 'afraid' of Byrd-I don't think so.

Demspsey does not belong that high or maybe not even top ten. He shamelessy avoided all black fighters during his day thats why he was so inactive. When forced to fight a black fighter he would choose to just sit out rather than fight.

Schmeling is laughable.

and Lewis' loss to McCall didn't have anything to do with a fight with Bowe. The loss to McCall happend a few years after Bowe had already pulled out of the contract and by 94 Bowe wasn't even champion anymore.

Bowe ducked him in 92 when HBO set up the heavyweight tournement

Bowe vs Holyfield
Lewis vs Rudock

The winners were suppossed to fight Bowe and Lewis both won and that right hand Lewis landed on Rudock started giving Bowe flashbacks. Bowe ran like a school girl pulling out of the contract and instead chose to fight Jesse Ferguson and Micheal Dokes.

As far as calling it a "bad stoppage" I always judge it by looking at the fighter who was stopped. I'll tell you didn't think it was a bad stoppage and thats Ridick Bowe he didn't complain or anything he knew he was beat.

whdempsey

10-27-2004, 05:45 PM

Both that and another:).
English for me the second language.
Told you so.

whdempsey

10-27-2004, 05:51 PM

Demspsey does not belong that high or maybe not even top ten. He shamelessy avoided all black fighters during his day thats why he was so inactive. When forced to fight a black fighter he would choose to just sit out rather than fight.

Shut the **** up boy. argue with me about boxing history and you will go home screaming you got raped.

Tex Rickard cancelled Jack Dempsey's title defense against Harry Wills, choosing instead to face Tunney. Wills would have lost. Dempsey's record against large, slow punchers speaks for itself. Furthermore, you ****** nuthugger, Dempsey fought more black men before he won the title than any other contender of that era. You're as ignorant as you are ugly. As stupid as you are offensive.

whdempsey

10-27-2004, 05:59 PM

mmmpppfffpppmmm*slurp*ppmmmffmmm Oh Evander mmmmpppmmmffffmmmm*slurp*

Wow. What a ****in amazing argument, you stupid **** stick. It's stupid *******s like you that make these forums degenerate into tit for tat, back and forth insulting. You're a stupid piece of ****, who has shown a little bit of knowledge when it comes to Lennox Lewis, and apart from that ignorance like a void.

*I'm giving you the finger **** face*

whdempsey

10-27-2004, 06:03 PM

For some reason I can't quote Jose to discredit him one last time, but I just wanted to say that he was inactive becaue Doc Kearns sent him on a Vaudeville circuit, and it wasn't until they split ways that Dempsey finally tried to defend his title one last time. Unfortunately, Tex Rickard chose to match him up against Tunney, instead of letting the fight with Wills take place. Anyway, I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest with you, Jose, cuz frankly I just think you're a dick.

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 06:19 PM

Oh looky looky I hit a nerve.

Dempsey shamelessy avoided black fighters and anyone who tries to deny this is just making himself look foolish. He was inactive cause he didn't want to fight black fighters. Its well known Dempsey never told Rickard that he wanted to fight black fighters. Dempsey was arguably the most powerfull man in sports at the time and if he wanted to fight a black fighter it could have easily been made.

http://www.secondsout.com/USA/colhirsch.cfm?ccs=212&cs=3963

yup conversations over.

wow I guess now would be the time where go running and screaming that you got raped huh.

Silverfox

10-27-2004, 08:19 PM

Floyd Paterson?? You have to be kidding....A scared rabbit he was! Does anyone remember the Lewis/McCall return fight? McCall was obviously under instructions from Don King to throw the fight. He was actually weeping in frustration...getting hit from all angles without either hitting back or going down. The first time that he beat Lewis, it was no fluke!
Lewis was very good, but not great. Had he fought Corrie Sanders 3/4 years ago, he would have been obliterated. That's why he ducked him.

hollister

10-27-2004, 08:38 PM

You're basing your "He was inactive because he was afraid of black fighters" theory on one fight that didn't happen? That's just ****ing stupid. I'll not argue that he should have fought more often, much more often, but to build your case around that one fight is no more than a blatently racist attempt at discrediting a fighter you don't like. He fought black fighters, and you know that if you know anything about Jack Dempsey. The person who wrote that article was just trying to advocate mandatory fights, totally ignoring the fact that boxing sanctions can be bought, fighters' ratings lowered or raised, and voila, everything is the ****ing same! The problems with ducking fighters that existed long ago still do! That **** didn't fix a damn thing. You really shouldn't lower yourself to these kinds of posts, no wonder you hate the Klits too, they're just too damn white to fit your taste.

whdempsey

10-27-2004, 08:39 PM

You silly little man. Watch me prove my point by quoting the same source you said proved me wrong:

"In the 1920’s, heavyweight Harry Wills had established himself as the number one contender for Jack Dempsey’s title. Because of the controversial title reign of Jack Johnson the decade before, Dempsey’s promoter Tex Rickard did not feel the public was ready for another black heavyweight champion. Therefore, Rickard did not allow Dempsey to box Wills. Dempsey would have fought Wills had Rickard put the match together, but never pressed the issue. Eventually reporters took up Wills’ cause. This indirectly led to Dempsey being banned from boxing Gene Tunney in New York. As a result, the two Dempsey vs Tunney fights took place in Philadelphia and Chicago respectively. Had mandatory challenges been in effect, there is no doubt that Dempsey would have fought Wills."

Next time, try reading the whole damn article.

Plus, to say that Jack Dempsey was the most powerful man in boxing is absurd. He was disliked by patrons, who all came to see him be beaten, and Doc Kearns moved his career expertly. Dempsey had NO CONTROL over who he fought. At least, not with Kearns. That's why they split up in 1926. The reason he never fought Wills is that he felt he had proven himself over bigger, stronger fighters. He had no cause to go after Wills, and Rickard told him to fight Tunney. That's what happened. You stupid little ****.

whdempsey

10-27-2004, 08:46 PM

By the way, the key parts of that quote are where the writer says, "RICKARD DID NOT [****ING] LET DEMPSEY FIGHT WILLS. DEMPSEY WOULD HAVE FOUGht WILLS HAD RICKARD PUT THE MATCH TOGETHER, BUT HE NEVER PRESSED THE ISSUE."

I will concede one point. Early in his title reign, Dempsey was quoted as saying, "I will pay no attention to negro challengers." See the funny thing is, that sounds exactly like another champion and his name is... right on the tip of my tongue, oh, who IS that guy? Oh, that's right, Jack-****ing-Johnson. Champs did not fight black fighters cuz the money wasn't there. You'd know that if you read his biography or looked at his record. As I said before, he fought more black guys as a contender than any other challenger of that era. Don't **** with me boy.

acquitted

10-27-2004, 09:06 PM

lennox lewis is underrated...ali is overrated

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 09:09 PM

I will concede one point. Early in his title reign, Dempsey was quoted as saying, "I will pay no attention to negro challengers."

Yes I see no reason why I should "**** with you" considering you seem to like proving yourself wrong instead of having others do it.

This was easier than I though.

Oh of course Demspey had to no controll I mean why would anyone think that??*rolleyes*

Its obvious you have a raging hardon for Jack Dempsey

dansweeney

10-27-2004, 09:10 PM

what is this argument about? he would have kicked the black fighters asses too, who do you think was waiting to challenge him Mike Tyson's grandfather? i dont think so, look at film of dempsey destroying jess willard and tell me he was afraid of black fighters. if anything he was racist, never scared

hollister

10-27-2004, 09:12 PM

But the thing is, an overrated Ali would have beaten an underrated Lewis into retirement, period.

dansweeney

10-27-2004, 09:14 PM

lewis waited for all his contemporaries to get old while he fought bums, period end of story, he was a late bloomer and beat over the hill former champions, ali has victories over every fighter in his era that was worth a ****, to even compare lewis to ali is assanine

hollister

10-27-2004, 09:14 PM

And your "this is easier than I thought" crap is weak. He fought black fighters, disprove me on that, would you? Once?

oldgringo

10-27-2004, 09:18 PM

My understanding of the whole situation was that Dempsey shamelessly ducked TOP black fighters through and through. My grandfather (excuse the reference but he knows his ****) has told me that the whole thing was pretty cut and dry. I dunno about Dempsey being a racist however...

My prediction...Jose TKO 11 against a tough, hungry whdempsey. :cool:

dansweeney

10-27-2004, 09:21 PM

dempsey is lucky he didnt fight in the 50's anyway, marciano would have kayoed his ****y ass in 2 rounds anyway, and so would ali just to make it politically correct for you racially conscious fans

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 09:23 PM

My understanding of the whole situation was that Dempsey shamelessly ducked black fighters through and through. My grandfather (excuse the reference but he knows his ****) has told me that the whole thing was pretty cut and dry. I dunno about Dempsey being a racist however...

My prediction...Jose TKO 11 against a tough, hungry whdempsey. :cool:

This is not some unknown boxing theory that I just made up. This is commen boxing knowledge. When Jack Dempsey became World Champion he flat out refuse to fight black fighters. No I dont beleive he was "afraid" but weather he was afraid or it was business he didn't want to have anything to do with putting his World Title on the line against a black man.

Thats Boxing 101

Anyone who tells you different doesn't know what there talking about or a shameless fanboy.

and yes it was easier than I thought it was going to be

oldgringo

10-27-2004, 09:26 PM

I see you finally got in the blue there Jose. From this thread now we have acquitted taking shots at white guys...oh what is the world coming to... :confused:

hollister

10-27-2004, 09:38 PM

More meaningless rhetoric while dancing around the question. Oh, and what, do you and Old Goofball live together? Are you the same person? What's the ****ing deal with Old goofball holding your hand every time someone calls you on your ****? Pathetic.

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 10:03 PM

hollister

10-27-2004, 10:09 PM

No, but if they were, I'd still much prefer that to getting my anus hurt the way you do. Talk about something you know, like blatant homosexuality, and leave posting about boxing to the real fans.

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 10:11 PM

No, but if they were, I'd still much prefer that to getting my anus hurt the way you do. Talk about something you know, like blatant homosexuality, and leave posting about boxing to the real fans.

Wow just outta nowhere the homosexual talk huh. Looks like someone has Jose's ass on his mind.

hollister

10-27-2004, 10:21 PM

In fact, two people do, their names are Jose and Old gringo, learn to fight your own battles, and learn to choose the battles you fight and limit them to the ones you can win with actual knowledge.

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 10:31 PM

oh ok good looking out

I mean it was just so foolish of me to come on and say Dempsey didn't want to have anything to do with black fighters when he was a World Champion. I mean what was I thinking?

"I will pay no attention to negro challengers."
- Jack Dempsey

hollister

10-27-2004, 10:36 PM

Seriously, you're grasping at straws. And you're still gay for having your father/lover/alternate user name take up your side.

oldgringo

10-27-2004, 10:39 PM

In fact, two people do, their names are Jose and Old gringo, learn to fight your own battles, and learn to choose the battles you fight and limit them to the ones you can win with actual knowledge.

What the ****? You haven't said **** or spit any knowledge about boxing on this thread. I said what I HAVE HEARD (not fact or opinion) and you say some stupid **** like, "Jose and Gringo have no boxing knowledge..." Basically you have picked up on Dempsey's argument with Jose and started calling names because someone doesn't agree with you. Keep talking you ****ing cheerleader. Notice in my post where I said..."my understanding" you mental midget.

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 10:40 PM

Seriously, you're grasping at straws. And you're still gay for having your father/lover/alternate user name take up your side.

grasping at straws?

a quote from Dempsey himself saying he wouldn't fight Black guys when he was champion. I mean seriously what more do you need.

your actually acusing me and OG of being the same person...yeah and I'M grasping at straw huh.

This was just plain brutal.

SonnyG8R

10-27-2004, 10:42 PM

hollister

10-27-2004, 10:54 PM

You said he shamelessly ducked black fighters, you posted nothing about when until someone else posted that he fought more black fighters as a challenger than any other, and then you started changing your posts to when he was champ. Then you take an exerpt from someone else's post, that was probably only part of what he actually said, and cling to that, because in actuality, you had not a leg to stand on, to speak of. And then Old Goofball jumps right in there with you, with the Grampa files. So now we have you jumping and dancing around my questions and the Grampa files, being passed off as documented fact. And I'm a ****ing cheerleader? I tried to debate with you logically, but you just kept that bull**** up of saying that those who disagreed with you knew nothing about boxing, without ever once offering up anything but bits and peices of other people's posts as evidence. In fact, neither of you have given any evidence whatsoever that would prove that I don't know what I'm talking about. So until you do, **** the both of you with eachother's dick and live happily ever after, far away from me.

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 10:56 PM

again with the gay talk

*shakes head*

SonnyG8R

10-27-2004, 10:59 PM

**** the Red Sox!

dansweeney

10-27-2004, 11:01 PM

go bosox *******

hollister

10-27-2004, 11:04 PM

And **** you Old goofball, I never said that neither of you had any boxing knowledge until just now. I asked Jose over and over to prove that Dempsey never fought black fighters, and he refused to answer the question, and then you have to defend his stupid ass with what you were told by your grampa. I'm not disrespecting your grampa, but godammit, Jose made a stupid post and wouldn't back it up with anything but that article, written by someone who wasn't there, that really was inconclusive to say the least. If I'm wrong, show me where, and I'll admit it, but he said Dempsey ducked all black fighters, without specifying in which part of his career, which led me to believe he meant the whole career, mental midget? Is that all you've got? I mean, since you're not going to be able to show me why I am what you say I am, why not reach a little higher? Jackass

oldgringo

10-27-2004, 11:15 PM

In fact, two people do, their names are Jose and Old gringo, learn to fight your own battles, and learn to choose the battles you fight and limit them to the ones you can win with actual knowledge.

Heres one case where you started talking about boxing knowledge before your last post...before I said anything to you or even contradicted a post you made. I didn't state anything I said as fact...I just said it's what I heard and understood. Post #99 and #101 featured you talking **** about me for saying some harmless ****. Is there anything else I need to say? I'm allowed to post whatever the **** I want and from what I UNDERSTAND...Jack Dempsey ducked black fighters. Is the thought of that too hard for you to fathom? Dude hollister I can ****in agree and disagree with whoever I want but you were out of line putting my name in your mouth when I never brought you into any of my posts. I have no problem with you...

Sir_Jose

10-27-2004, 11:24 PM

the GREAT one

10-27-2004, 11:29 PM

He's top 10 no doubt. Lewis like Holmes will not be apricated until he's been gone awhile. People let there personal feelings get in the way when talking about Lewis, cause they dont like him as aperson or think he was boring they dont give him as much credit as he deserves, but at the end of the day his resume is as good as any heavyweight who has ever fought.

His numbers stack up against anyone

Gold Medal
3 Time heavyweight Champion(Holyfield and Ali are the other two)
16 Title defenses over 10 years(3rd behind Louis and Holmes)
Beaten every man he has every fought(Only Marciano can say that)

He's in the 5-10 range and should always be put above Holyfield and Tyson.
MY TOP 10
1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Forman
4 Tyson
5 Holmes
6 Hoyfield
7 Marciano
i wouldnt put Lewis higher than any of the above....
lewis's claim 2fame beating a well passed his prime Tyson,beating (not stoppin)a very old Holyfield...gettin lucky against unlucky Klitchko(no remach).....

Soundtraveler

10-28-2004, 04:29 AM

J !

10-28-2004, 04:39 AM

miron_lang

10-28-2004, 04:48 AM

Lennox Lewis is a Top 10. maybe at 8 to 10th spot.

Soundtraveler

10-28-2004, 05:40 AM

My personal all time favorite fantasy fight would be a Cruiserweighted Holyfield vs Marciano, now THAT would be a WAR!!!

whdempsey

10-28-2004, 09:46 AM

This is not some unknown boxing theory that I just made up. This is commen boxing knowledge. When Jack Dempsey became World Champion he flat out refuse to fight black fighters. No I dont beleive he was "afraid" but weather he was afraid or it was business he didn't want to have anything to do with putting his World Title on the line against a black man.

Thats Boxing 101

Well, you spelled common wrong, but I'm still willing to agree with part of your statement. As long as you can admit that it was politics that kept him from fighting black men, that he had a fight scheduled with Harry Wills in 1926 that was cancelled, and also that he probably would have beaten Will (although probably not Langford had that fight ever been made), I'm willing to concede that Dempsey ignored black fighters early in his reign. Oh, one more thing. He deserves to be in the top ten.

whdempsey

10-28-2004, 09:48 AM

And another thing, this all came about because you said that Dempsey doesn't deserve to be in the all-time heavyweight elite. I would like you to remember that. That's simply insane.

markosg19

10-28-2004, 09:49 AM

easily top 5!!!! Holyfield would never have beaten him!!!!

jabsRstiff

10-28-2004, 09:50 AM

Jack dempsey had a lousy reign as heavyweight champ.

People talk about the inactivity of today's fighter.

Check the record...Dempsey was champ for 7 years, & made 5 defenses.
That's inexcusable.

He was a phenomenal fighter, who fought with a modern style...but I have problems with his title reign.

triggerhappy

10-28-2004, 09:56 AM

he is very overated plus he has a glass jay. but he dose have power.

jabsRstiff

10-28-2004, 10:00 AM

What makes you think people on a boxing forum want to see your jerk off material ?
Get that pic outta here, queer.

dempseyfire

10-28-2004, 10:01 AM

Demspsey does not belong that high or maybe not even top ten. He shamelessy avoided all black fighters during his day thats why he was so inactive. When forced to fight a black fighter he would choose to just sit out rather than fight.

Schmeling is laughable.

and Lewis' loss to McCall didn't have anything to do with a fight with Bowe. The loss to McCall happend a few years after Bowe had already pulled out of the contract and by 94 Bowe wasn't even champion anymore.

Bowe ducked him in 92 when HBO set up the heavyweight tournement

Bowe vs Holyfield
Lewis vs Rudock

The winners were suppossed to fight Bowe and Lewis both won and that right hand Lewis landed on Rudock started giving Bowe flashbacks. Bowe ran like a school girl pulling out of the contract and instead chose to fight Jesse Ferguson and Micheal Dokes.

As far as calling it a "bad stoppage" I always judge it by looking at the fighter who was stopped. I'll tell you didn't think it was a bad stoppage and thats Ridick Bowe he didn't complain or anything he knew he was beat.

Bowe-Lewis is universally agreed on as a bad stoppage. You are in the small minority on this one.

I know about the 1992 deal, but the truth is that the Bowe and Lewis camps WERE already in negotiations in 1994 for a fight, with Lewis's title on the line. Whether he was clearly ducking Lewis earlier is kind of mute since he signed on to fight him at a later date . .
Schmeling is 'pathetic' . . . how about knowing something about the man and his era before you post such nonsense.

As for Dempsey, yes it was political and economic reasons he didn't fight Willis, and Willis was the ONLY black HW of the time who deserved a title shot. The fight scene was not like it is today, most of the best HWs (and fighters in all of the weight classes) were white. Don't look at history through 2004 goggles b/c you will never comprehend what was going on . . . .and Dempsey yes didn't fight often during his title reign (which was due mainly b/c he was doing Hollywood pictures and living the good life after the Firpo fight) but his resume before the Williard title shot is outstanding, and is where he should get most of the credit as a fighter.

LuKahnLi

10-28-2004, 10:14 AM

If Lewis is top 10 all time, he is definitely in the lower half of that top 10.

Top 5 is occupied by
Ali, Louis, Holmes, Foreman and Frazier.

Lower 5 is occupied by
Lewis, Holyfield, Dempsey, Norton and Marciano

Though Marciano could probably be in the top 5 over Frazier.....

triggerhappy

10-28-2004, 10:20 AM

dont envy my great body

pinkpanther

10-28-2004, 10:24 AM

Lwis is about 8 all time in my opinion

1. Louis
2. Marciano
3. Ali
4. Liston
5. Fraizer
6. Dempsey
7. Forman
8. Lewis

SonnyG8R

10-28-2004, 11:23 AM

Top 20 Heavies

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Jack Johnson

Rocky Marciano

George Foreman

Larry Holmes

Jack Dempsey

Evander Holyfield

Sonny Liston

Joe Frazier

Lennox Lewis

Mike Tyson

Ezzard Charles

Jim Jeffries

James J. Corbett

Gene Tunney

Bob Fitzsimmons

John L. Sullivan

Jess Willard

Jersey Joe Walcott

J !

10-28-2004, 11:27 AM

SonnyG8R

10-28-2004, 11:49 AM

nice work sonny, i dont agree with all the positions but its a pretty conclusive, i dont do lists of heavies by the way nor all time p4p, find em futile and pointless but as lists go thats a goodie. :cool:

Thanks man. I felt pretty safe listing those as the top 20. But certainly you can argue with the positions. I go back and forth with the positions myself.

SonnyG8R

10-28-2004, 11:50 AM

It looks like most of us agree that Lewis belongs somewhere between 8-15.

J !

10-28-2004, 12:14 PM

i dont but hey im a big fan one of the reasons I dont do a serious list as such cos I cant be subjective about it.
Had too many great nights surroudned by friends screamin him on at 5 am, you cant be subjective when you have those memories you know. :cool:

SonnyG8R

10-28-2004, 12:38 PM

hollister

10-28-2004, 09:36 PM

Old Gringo,

Alright, Dempsey had a lousy reign, that much has been established. I just felt that he was being depicted as a coward, and I became frustrated when Jose wouldn't answer my questions directly. I still feel that politics played a major role in his not fighting blacks after he became champ, as he fought many before he was champ, and never had a problem with it then. Even though I feel that many times you and Jose tag team other posters, I apologize for saying the personal things I said about you guys. I realize that most likely neither of you care whether I apologize or not, but I want it to be known that I know I crossed the line, and regret saying those things. I do feel that Dempsey is yet another very good fighter that never really realized his potential. I'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

hollister

10-28-2004, 09:39 PM

And I don't feel Lewis is an all time great. A very good fighter that made good use of his size, but I'll probably question his greatness until he dies, if I don't first.

Torino

10-29-2004, 12:54 AM

what truth is htting hard?

You dont even know what surounded him losing those belts.

unanswered questions?...maybe for you. After 100's of amature fights, 40+ pro fights, a 15 year career and 19 World Title fights there are really no more questions left to answer. Were pretty much gonna know all we want about a guy if he has a career like that.

We've been down this road and it never ends good for you. Your gonna get like 10 people disagreaing with you, your gonna run back to ******** with your tail between your legs and after a few weeks you'll come back...etc.

your bringing nothing to the table over here.LOL!!!!!!!!

It's so easy to get you going. Honestly, I have "yet" to go to ********. I post exclusively on boxingscene. Don't see the need to post anywhere else.

Funny how you say no one agrees with me, when it's you that always seems to be arguing with everyone. All these people that you say are supposed to disagree with me, seldom do. Those that do disagree, are always the same three. (3) Including you.

The people that followed Lewis's career, know the truth. No matter how much you try to cover up for him. I'm not sure if you are trying to convince me of your BS, or yourself. Oh, and once again, the unanswered questions are about Lewis in his fight with Vitali, not Lewis's career, no matter how hard you try to get away from that. Nice try!

You can deny it, but honestly, you can't accept any negative posts about Lewis...... . . even if they're true. Your obsession can't be healthy, but keep it up. It always makes me laugh. I hope you don't live near him. And.... oh ...god....... I hope you don't have Lewis magazines under your bed. Sick!

Also, I love the fact that I can reduce someone to such an unstable emotional state by typing words into a computer screen. Amazing! lol

whdempsey

10-29-2004, 01:10 AM

Sorry Great One, but Lewis would have beaten Tyson in his prime too, two reasons, first, Tyson has never been good at fighting really tall fighters, he had trouble with everyone over 6'3". Second reason, Iron Mike, even in his prime has always become very ordinary after the 5th round, check the stats, his win % dropped immediately after the 5th. Lewis would tie him up when he got too close, and beat him just the same way he did when they finally stepped into the ring in Memphis.

Marciano, as great as he was, would be no more than an good sized Cruiserweight by todays standards, he is simply too small to beat a Lewis, who would, as he did Tyson and so many others, just simply rain down punches from above while keeping him at bay with that long jab of his. Marciano was tough and might have made it to the final bell, but the decision would be a loppsided one.

As for the rest of your list I agree with the names with only a slight difference in rank....

I'm gonna disagree with you. Tyson was too ferocious when he was young for Lewis. Remember, Lewis was pretty dman vulnerable when he was a rookie, and if they had gotten together then, Tyson would have knocked him out because Lewis, thought he does not have a glass jaw, has never been good at recuperating from getting hurt. The other problem with your theory is that Lewis would be able to keep Tyson at bay with his jab. In '91 his jab was not educated enough, and he has never moved fast enough, to make it a uesful weapon. The only time any made good use of a jab was when Douglas beat him in 90, and that had as much to do with Douglas's mobility. I'm telling you, the reason Tyson lost the fight with Lewis is that he was too old. In his prime, the pressure that he would have exerted would have been far too much. If you need proof, rewatch the first round of their fight. Tyson outjabs Lewis. If he were able to keep that pressure up, he'd win.

As for your argument about size...please. Time and again, small fighters have risen in weight and proven that the adage "A good big man will always beat a good small man." is bull ****. Disagree and I'll find the records to back it up. In fact, if you or anyone else wants to know why the heavyweight division is so poor today, look somewhere between 175 and 200 pounds. Saying that Marciano was a cruiserweight is absurd, because the class is really made up of what should be small heavyweights. Marciano would have to be given the same chance at beating Lewis as Tyson, because they exert the same amount of pressure, and Marciano had this crazy habit of knocking people cold.

J !

10-29-2004, 04:24 AM

So you'd put him in the top 5?

sorry mate had logged off was going home time in the uk! Yeah I would but I do realise part of this is based on bias and fond memories, however I do think that like holmes, Lewis real ranking in the great scheme of things wont be properly established for maybe ten years, only then will his career and legacy asd he likes to call it, but put into perspective.

tends to be the way with the more technical fighters.

ferociouso

10-29-2004, 04:54 AM

i think lennox is 1 off the best I've ever seen the way he beat frank bruno, tyson, holyfield he's an honour to the sport to bed he quit.

ferociouso

10-29-2004, 04:55 AM

1) ali
foreman
lewis
tyson
frasier
norton
toney

Soundtraveler

10-29-2004, 04:57 AM

Well WHDempsey, I believe Tyson and Lewis DID spar as youths and in fact Tyson actually stayed with the Lewis family for a short time. As I heard it they sparred with neither fighter going down, but I can tell you that Manny Steward told me personally that Lewis considered Tyson to be the least threat of anyone to beat him! He always knew Tyson couldn't reach him without leaving his feet, thus losing the tremendous power he had in those legs.

As for me saying Marciano would be a Cruiserweight, well, look it up, Rocky when in his prime, fought at 185lbs.!! Todays Heavyweights average around the 230lb mark. Marciano weighing in at 185lbs makes him a Cruiserweight in my book.

Marciano by the way, had the shortest reach of any Heavyweight Champ on record at just 68". Tyson at his peak would weigh 25 to 35lbs MORE than Marciano on basically the same frame, but Iron Mike has a longer reach. For that matter even Featherweight Champ Sandy Saddler had a 2 inch reach advantage on Marciano!

I have of course been speaking of Marciano and Lewis fighting in their primes, as I was with Lewis vs Tyson. Do you really think Marciano, at 5'9" or 5'10", and 185lbs - would be able to deal with a Lewis who stands 6'5" weighs around 245lbs and has a reach of 84"?!

Let's see, that is a 16" reach advantage, a 7" or 8" height advantage - and a 60lb. weight advantage for Lewis, you're right - Lewis doesn't stand a chance... :rolleyes:

This one is an easy call my friend...

Dark Destroyer

10-29-2004, 05:05 AM

Like i've said before Lennox is a great fighter. He is worthy enough to stand in the ring with any heavyweight of any era and trade blows. He can adapt to any style and there isn't many heavyweights who can do that well. He was very versatile for a big guy in alot of ways. His speed was amazing and his power was devastating. He was a thinking fighter and very tactical. When he fought Mike Tyson i noticed the sneaky advanced boxing techniques he was using like holding his hand under Mike's eye's then bringing up a crashing uppercut to his chin, not many big heavies think like Lennox did. The two times he lost should not have happened but thats what you get when your underestimate an opponent and don't train properly. The rematch of both of his losses showed how great he was because when he was focused he could beat anyone in front of him. Besides we have to remember that Lennox always won the big fights in front of him, when he had to be 100% he was 110%. I admit Lennox was abit sloppy coming into his fight against Klitschko but he still beat him. Lennox was getting like Roy towards the end, he was finding it hard to get motivated for mandatory challengers after been on top of the world for so long. He got out at the right time if you ask me. He has sacrificed alot for the sport and i'm glad he can now enjoy his retirement and spend his hard earned cash and live life to the max. He's healthy and still speaks like a true English Gentleman.

orange

10-29-2004, 05:24 AM

whether he is great or not....i still don't like Lewis....he is a kind of boring fighter......

Dark Destroyer

10-29-2004, 07:59 AM

whether he is great or not....i still don't like Lewis....he is a kind of boring fighter......

Boring? What makes him boring? He is sensible and well reserved in my opinion in the ring. He was what you call a intelligent fighter.

whdempsey

10-29-2004, 12:23 PM

As for me saying Marciano would be a Cruiserweight, well, look it up, Rocky when in his prime, fought at 185lbs.!! Todays Heavyweights average around the 230lb mark. Marciano weighing in at 185lbs makes him a Cruiserweight in my book.

Marciano by the way, had the shortest reach of any Heavyweight Champ on record at just 68". Tyson at his peak would weigh 25 to 35lbs MORE than Marciano on basically the same frame, but Iron Mike has a longer reach. For that matter even Featherweight Champ Sandy Saddler had a 2 inch reach advantage on Marciano!

I have of course been speaking of Marciano and Lewis fighting in their primes, as I was with Lewis vs Tyson. Do you really think Marciano, at 5'9" or 5'10", and 185lbs - would be able to deal with a Lewis who stands 6'5" weighs around 245lbs and has a reach of 84"?!

Let's see, that is a 16" reach advantage, a 7" or 8" height advantage - and a 60lb. weight advantage for Lewis, you're right - Lewis doesn't stand a chance... :rolleyes:

Now I never said Lewis doesn't stand a chance, and furthermore, I knew every stat you posted beforehand. Besides which, you sidestepped my overall argument about the cruiserweight class not existing. And to answer your queston "Do you really think Marciano, at 5'9" or 5'10", and 185lbs - would be able to deal with a Lewis who stands 6'5" weighs around 245lbs and has a reach of 84"?!" How should I say this? Yes. Yes, I do. A reach advantage is only worthwhile if you can keep your opponent on the outside. As soon as Marciano gets in, if he gets in, those long arms of Lewis are a disadvantage. If you disagree, don't, because you can review any tape of his and see that the only serious inside weapon he had was his uppercut.

Now, I never even said that I was picking Marciano over Lewis, but since you argued it, I figured I'd put up a fight. And I am saying that size is given way too much credit. The beef I had was with you calling Marciano a cruiserweight. Cruiserweight is a class that doesn't exist. These small heavyweights should be able to mix it up with the big boys, just like they did back in the day. You'll notice that the biggest fighters didn't dominate the heavyweight class to the same degree that they do today. And don't tell me they weren't there, because they were, and if I need to I can name names to prove it. The fact of the matter is that the addition of small heavyweights adds the right spice to make a class great. Instead of having big ass clumsy oafs, you have tenacious punchers who are fast on their feets and throw in combination. Instead of John Ruiz, you could have Jack Dempsey.

Now, the problem with arguing for Marciano against Lewis is that Marciano never had to take on a giant-sized fighter. His management kept him away from the biggest guys. But if you need a better example of size being less than it's cracked up to be, why don't you look up Jack Dempsey's record? Don't forget Dempsey was a "cruiserweight" too. And yes, he was about three inches taller than Marciano, but we're not talking about a snappy, long-armed boxer here. We're talking about a guy who loved to mix it up on the inside. In-fighting over reach. That is, unless the fighter with superior reach can also move like the dickens. Look up every guy who had a height, weight, and reach advantage over him, and then look at how long they lasted. Most of them didn't make it to the second round.

whdempsey

10-29-2004, 12:26 PM

1) ali
foreman
lewis
tyson
frasier
norton
toney
Look, I love Toney as much as the next guy. Probably more. But at this stage in his heavyweight career, it doesn't make sense to rank him among the all-time greats.

Soundtraveler

10-29-2004, 01:21 PM

Now I never said Lewis doesn't stand a chance, and furthermore, I knew every stat you posted beforehand. Besides which, you sidestepped my overall argument about the cruiserweight class not existing. And to answer your queston "Do you really think Marciano, at 5'9" or 5'10", and 185lbs - would be able to deal with a Lewis who stands 6'5" weighs around 245lbs and has a reach of 84"?!" How should I say this? Yes. Yes, I do. A reach advantage is only worthwhile if you can keep your opponent on the outside. As soon as Marciano gets in, if he gets in, those long arms of Lewis are a disadvantage. If you disagree, don't, because you can review any tape of his and see that the only serious inside weapon he had was his uppercut.

Now, I never even said that I was picking Marciano over Lewis, but since you argued it, I figured I'd put up a fight. And I am saying that size is given way too much credit. The beef I had was with you calling Marciano a cruiserweight. Cruiserweight is a class that doesn't exist. These small heavyweights should be able to mix it up with the big boys, just like they did back in the day. You'll notice that the biggest fighters didn't dominate the heavyweight class to the same degree that they do today. And don't tell me they weren't there, because they were, and if I need to I can name names to prove it. The fact of the matter is that the addition of small heavyweights adds the right spice to make a class great. Instead of having big ass clumsy oafs, you have tenacious punchers who are fast on their feets and throw in combination. Instead of John Ruiz, you could have Jack Dempsey.

Now, the problem with arguing for Marciano against Lewis is that Marciano never had to take on a giant-sized fighter. His management kept him away from the biggest guys. But if you need a better example of size being less than it's cracked up to be, why don't you look up Jack Dempsey's record? Don't forget Dempsey was a "cruiserweight" too. And yes, he was about three inches taller than Marciano, but we're not talking about a snappy, long-armed boxer here. We're talking about a guy who loved to mix it up on the inside. In-fighting over reach. That is, unless the fighter with superior reach can also move like the dickens. Look up every guy who had a height, weight, and reach advantage over him, and then look at how long they lasted. Most of them didn't make it to the second round.

Just because you don't think the Cruiserweight class exists doesn't make it disappear, because I announce plenty of them. It is recognized by the major sanctioning bodies, whether the fight fans approve or not is of no matter.

Second Dempsey fought in a time that you must admit did not feature the talent of boxers today, back then fighters who faced Demspey ranged from guys who were trying to make a dollar to feed themselves to drunks in mining towns! There were really only a handful of men who fought for a living and we all know it.

One fighter Demspey REFUSED to get into the ring with, was Sam "The Boston Tar Baby" Langford who fought against Sam McVea no less than 15 times between 1911 and 1920. Just one example, as I too can back my stuff up. Boxing is a sport of records, it's just too easy with the internet now, so I am not impressed by statements of "I'll name guys if I have to" save the macho stat finding internet nerd crap.

Let's talk boxing, if you think fighters with a 60lb. weight advantage belong in the same division, then YOU should get into the ring with a guy that much bigger than you and give it a go, I say you will have your mind changed for you in the 1st round!! LOL

Soundtraveler

10-29-2004, 01:41 PM

I do agree with you that really big guys don't usually stay on top for long, just look at the "Brothers Klitchko", who I have NEVER been impressed with, they will both be history in a couple of years. Lennox Lewis however, was an exception to the rule as he dominated the division for about a decade. I would like to see smaller guys in there up to a point, but 60lbs. is just too much.

Moon

10-29-2004, 02:15 PM

He had a chance to cement his legacy as a Definite top-tenner, but did not show-up on game day with Vitali. I am a true Lennox fan, but can accept some arguments that he's actually just outside the top-ten group, despite his amazing record of defences, Olympics etc.

Italian250

10-29-2004, 02:32 PM

Uh, let's see...was either a champion or top contender for 13 years of his career, held the world heavyweight title or 8 years total, destroyed Michael Grant, Andrew Golota, Mike Tyson, Tommy Morrison, and Razor Ruddock when ALL were deemed be be a valid threat..Overrated?? U gotta be kidding! Top 7-8 at the VERY LEAST.

whdempsey

10-29-2004, 03:48 PM

Just because you don't think the Cruiserweight class exists doesn't make it disappear, because I announce plenty of them. It is recognized by the major sanctioning bodies, whether the fight fans approve or not is of no matter.

Second Dempsey fought in a time that you must admit did not feature the talent of boxers today, back then fighters who faced Demspey ranged from guys who were trying to make a dollar to feed themselves to drunks in mining towns! There were really only a handful of men who fought for a living and we all know it.

One fighter Demspey REFUSED to get into the ring with, was Sam "The Boston Tar Baby" Langford who fought against Sam McVea no less than 15 times between 1911 and 1920. Just one example, as I too can back my stuff up. Boxing is a sport of records, it's just too easy with the internet now, so I am not impressed by statements of "I'll name guys if I have to" save the macho stat finding internet nerd crap.

Let's talk boxing, if you think fighters with a 60lb. weight advantage belong in the same division, then YOU should get into the ring with a guy that much bigger than you and give it a go, I say you will have your mind changed for you in the 1st round!! LOL

I never said it doesn't exist, I said it shouldn't. Furthermore, try KO Bill Brennan, Fred Fulton, Carl Morris, Jess Willard, Luis Angel Firpo. All of them were bigger than Dempsey, all of them were valid contenders at the time, and all of them were knckout victims.

And as for fighting guys that are bigger than me, mebbe you should talk to anyone at my gym. Those are the only ones I'll fight.

Furthermore, what in the world does Sam Langford have to do with Jack Dempsey beating bigger men? Langford was being beaten blind when Jack was champ, although I'll gladly admit it's a shame he never got a title chance.

And as for trying to impress anyone here, who's trying impress whom, o great announcer? Why don't you leave your announcing bull **** somewhere else? No one here gives a ****. It proves nothing about your boxing knowledge. And you're too condescending for words, little man.

Frankly, I would have left names in the original post except I didn't feel like going to boxrec.com and finishing it. After all, you should just be able to accept the fact that Dempsey is a Giant-killer. That's boxing convention, and if there's anyone who should know about boxing, you seem to think it's a two-bit fight announcer.

semjasa

10-29-2004, 03:51 PM

Id like to know everyones opinions on Lennox Lewis. Theres been a horrible void in the heavyweight scene lately, but after years of not getting respected, does Lennox now deserve to be regarded in the top 10 all time heavyweights?
Top 5 easy

Soundtraveler

10-29-2004, 04:23 PM

C'mon Dempsey!
You did say, "Besides which, you sidestepped my overall argument about the cruiserweight class not existing."

Well,excuse me if I read that as you saying the Cruiserweight division doesn't exist!

You are the one who brought up Dempsey in the 1st place, as the thread was about Marciano vs Lewis. I merely added another name to show an example of the lack of talented full-time fighters in the era of Dempsey, which was why Langford fought McVea 15 times!Get it?! By the way, I meant to type "Let's save the macho stat finding internet nerd crap" I simply forgot to type the word "let's". But if that is all it takes to get you miffed, I can say for sure I have seen enough fights as a "Ring Announcer" to tell you won't go far in the sport - you need to learn to keep your cool dude!

Frankly, I am proud to be a ring announcer, I consider it a time honored tradition and I love having the best seat in the house.

I will make no opologies for what I do for a living. Not too many people can get up there and do what ring announcers do on live t.v. and in front of thousands of people. DEAL WITH IT - I DO!
:eek:

marvdave

10-29-2004, 04:27 PM

tracylee

10-29-2004, 04:27 PM

SonnyG8R

10-29-2004, 04:34 PM

1) ali
foreman
lewis
tyson
frasier
norton
toney

No offense but except for Ali at #1 this list is a joke.

Soundtraveler

10-29-2004, 04:49 PM

Thank you Tracylee and to answer MarvDave, No celeb here but maybe one day - I mostly work on the Gulf Coast, and I had the pleasure of working the entire undercard of the RJJ vs Johnson fight a few weeks ago in Memphis - Mr. Buffer of course worked the Main Event as he is under contract with HBO. The undercard was televised in Europe but not the U.S..(bummer!)

An HBO contract is something that I am hoping to achieve myself one day.
I have worked entire events on ESPN, Foxsports, etc. also did a gig on Showtime. It is a blast to work big crowds, I love it!

Soundtraveler

10-29-2004, 05:31 PM

By the way Dempsey, Langford had nearly 200 wins - mostly by ko during the "Great Jack Dempsey era", so when was he getting "beaten blind" as you put it? Just wondering...

whdempsey

10-29-2004, 05:43 PM

By the way Dempsey, Langford had nearly 200 wins - mostly by ko during the "Great Jack Dempsey era", so when was he getting "beaten blind" as you put it? Just wondering...
He was beaten blind during the years that Jack Dempsey was champion. I mean it literally, it's not an indictment of Sam's skill. He could no longer see. Sam Langford was as tough as they came, and he would have had a better chance at beating Dempsey than Harry Wills. Well, except for that bit about him not being able to see.

Excuse me for misunderstanding your statement, and forgive me for insulting you. You have every right to be proud of your career. I went too far. Forgive me. Also, I did not mean to type that it doesn't exist. Mea culpa. Furthermore, I can understand why such a statement would bother you, since it irritates me when people insist that so-and-so "beat" another fighter, just because the official verdict was controversial. I meant to type should not exist. I'm sure you know how these things go.

But you have to admit, you are pretty condescending a lotta the time.

Nonetheless, I stand by my arguments. The cruiserweight class is depriving us of a much more competitive heavyweight class, as evidenced by the success which fighters such as Jack Dempsey had against larger men. If you don't agree, so be it. I will simply always believe you're wrong.

As for my ring career, we'll have to wait and see. I actually have very tight control over my emotions. It's harder to tell through a monitor.

whdempsey

10-29-2004, 06:02 PM

By the way Dempsey, Langford had nearly 200 wins - mostly by ko during the "Great Jack Dempsey era", so when was he getting "beaten blind" as you put it? Just wondering...
His record read 164-35-33 (115) 48 ND's and 3 NC's. That's a kayo rate of 41%. Not that impressive. Of course, the Ring rates him as the second best puncher of the last century, and they tend to know what they're talking about. I wouldn't rank him as high as that, but I do respect their opinions.

RussianArm

10-29-2004, 09:43 PM

He's up there with Joe Frazier and Louis.

Sir_Jose

10-29-2004, 10:22 PM

just in case anyone is wondering yes Lewis and Tyson did spar with eachother when they were kids.
http://www.boxingscene.com/media/data/500/8918251lewis1.jpg

Now lets be realistic here. No way in hell Dempsey or Marciano would make it out alive against Lennox Lewis.

SweetScience

10-29-2004, 11:26 PM

Was never a Lewis fan but even I would put him in the top 10...he beat everyone in his era.

Silverfox

10-30-2004, 12:19 AM

FistoftheDallasStar

10-30-2004, 01:19 AM

Overrated in the fact that many compare him to Ali. Lewis was great in his day but to compare him to "The Greatest" is going a little overboard.

Soundtraveler

10-30-2004, 06:32 AM

Apologies accepted Dempsey, and I do not mean to come off condescending, I never realized that I was being taken as such.

I do not post with the intent of sounding that way, when I type a sentence, like everyone else, it is just my train of thought at the time - nothing personal. I don't even read what I type, at least not very thoroughly, and only edit to add something. Also, I am prone to misspelling from time to time, oh well, it's just me being me. Mi wife r a genius sew I don't have to b 1. lol!

Like I said earlier, I would like to see smaller guys fighting big boys, but 60lbs is just too much. Oh, and, Dempsey would still be a Cruiserweight today! :p :D

Soundtraveler

10-30-2004, 06:54 AM

It's great that we have someone on this forum, who is so close to the game. You must have seen & heard a hell of a lot behind the scenes, that never reach the ears of many.

A question, that you may be equipped to answer. I live in South Africa: ESPN shows fights that are always weeks behind. Why is this so? Except for the live satellite fights, we get crap from ESPN.

It's good to see that Buffer finally realised that he looks better with grey hair! You should tell a few of the refs to quit the hair & moustache dye as well. What actually happened to Teddy Atlas...was he involved in a car accident...or was his defense that bad? ;)

Good luck in your career!

Thanks my friend, and to try to answer for ESPN would be hard for me to do, but the next time I work an event for them I will ask the producer if he knows why they would be weeks behind. I had no idea that was the case.

That said, I do have to add the fact is, alot of my fight cards are "tape delays" as they call it, but usually it is only for a day or two, maybe a week at most.

Perhaps ESPN wants to make sure they have a show every week where you live, to do that would require some tape delays because they don't have a Friday Night Fight to film EVERY Friday, they may go a week or two without seeing a card worth their while in their estimation.

As for the gray hair, well, I think I'll stay clear of that one with Mr Buffer - as he can be a bit of a "prima donna" I have been told. (by more than a few people) He was a former male model when he was a bit younger. Did you know he was also a used car salesman in Germany?! It's true!

He was nice enough to me though, and people had told me that he wouldn't be. Perhaps it was because I had also worked with his brother Bruce years ago, but he was polite to me, so I give him props...http://img60.exs.cx/img60/7774/JDMichaelBufferresized.jpg

Soundtraveler

10-30-2004, 02:00 PM

Just a couple more things, first, thank you Jose for the great pic of the young Mr. Lewis and the Tyson camp - you solidified a point for me!

Second, I agree with you that neither Marciano or Dempsey could take a Lewis if all were in their primes - no way. Both of the fighters of the past were tough, but damn, they were my size.

Third, WHDempsey, I did not know that Langford actually went blind - thank you, I learn something everyday.

Fourth, when I stood next to Lewis in Memphis, I said to myself "Jesus, this guy is huge, how is Tyson going to whip him?"!!

Shortly thereafter we all found out the answer and I lost my money....

dempseyfire

10-30-2004, 02:11 PM

Jack Dempsey was 6'1, 190 lbs of pure muscle. Tyson didn't lose to Lewis b/c he was smaller-he lost b/c he was an old, shot pressure fighter who had lost the skills and reflexes of his youth-he just sat there and walked into jabs all night. If you aren't using foot movement or moving your upperbody, I don't care if you're 7 ft or 5'8, you aren't going to beat a top HW, esp. a jabber like Lennox Lewis. Dempsey knocked out men, top HWs (Carl Morris, Fred Fulton, Jess Williard etc.) who were as big or bigger then Lewis. The size thing is an issue to a certain extent but only to a certain degree. Dempsey was a big man with broad shoulders and large hands. He was not a 'blown up' middle or a Chris Byrd sized fighter. Here's a good article:
http://www.15rounds.com/Columns/apaloka/thenextbigthing.htm

and here's another http://coxscorner.tripod.com/jdempsey.html

RobbieD

10-30-2004, 03:34 PM

All time great in my eyes. At the end of the day, he never ducked anyone and beat everyone put in front of him. Can't argue with that record.

GasPed

10-30-2004, 07:15 PM

Ok. First post (on my way to 100 ;) ). My 2c - LL was (and is) all time top 10 in the heavies, but only just. He was either THE MAN, or THE PREVIOUS MAN for 10 years straight, and everyone knew he was the quality of the division. A couple sucker losses drop him out of the top 5, but the fact he avenged those puts him in the top 10. History will perhaps judge him a little more fairly than many do today...

GasPed

10-30-2004, 07:21 PM

Also, whoever thinks Jack Dempsey or Rocky Marciano could somehow walk out of the 1920s or 1950s and dominate today needs a little head shake and some medicinal help. They would be pygmies today - as SoundTraveller points out, they might be dominant cruisers, but that would be it.

Even Sonny Liston and George Foreman would dwarved by today's standards. You can't compare heavies from different eras IMO, simply because of the size progression of the human race in general.

SonnyG8R

10-30-2004, 08:45 PM

Foreman

10-31-2004, 12:39 AM

Of the group of fighters bandied about as top ten greats, who besides Lennox has that bad of a chin? Nobody

Size matters eh? I guess Michael Grant, Primo Carnera and Butterbean are up there as well? A little guy can't beat a big guy? Tyson beat a lot of guys who were bigger than him sometimes by a good bit, and Tyson's greatness has been suspect.

Lennox is top twenty, maybe top fifteen, no more than that. He was big, had some skills and a very craftily guided career.

So he avenged one of his losses(McCall doesn't count) big deal. He did to Rahman what the Rock did to him. The score is 1 to 1. Why does Lennox get credit for that? Did they have a rubber match I'm not aware of?

My opinion as to a top ten in no particular order:
Ali
Louis
Holmes
Dempsey
Foreman
Frazier
Liston
Holyfield
Marciano
Johnson