I would like to ask your opinion on something.

Why was Sonny Liston considered invincible after destroying Floyd Patterson? Nothing on Floyd's resume (other than a win over Archie Moore) points to the fact that he was a world beater.

As a champion ,I dare say ,he was protected from opponents considered dangerous. I he was a great offensive fighter but he was very easy to hit. If Ingemar could tee off on him at will, why in the world would anyone be suprised that he got demolished my Liston?

Not taking anything away from either fighter, but it doesn't look like a lopsided victory by Sonny Liston would be that shocking.Nor does it look like a victory over Floyd Patterson would signify the coming of an invincible champion.

It's how Sonny won the fights. Both 1 round KO's. I think Cus almost had to carry Floyd out of the ring.

It's how Sonny won the fights. Both 1 round KO's. I think Cus almost had to carry Floyd out of the ring.

Well I understand. But surely someone of Liston's caliber was a heavy favorite over Floyd because it was a huge leap in competition for him. Plus factor in what Ingemar did to him and it should not have been a surpise.

Does anyone know the odds for the Patterson-Liston I fight?

I would like to ask your opinion on something.

Why was Sonny Liston considered invincible after destroying Floyd Patterson? Nothing on Floyd's resume (other than a win over Archie Moore) points to the fact that he was a world beater.

As a champion ,I dare say ,he was protected from opponents considered dangerous. I he was a great offensive fighter but he was very easy to hit. If Ingemar could tee off on him at will, why in the world would anyone be suprised that he got demolished my Liston?

Not taking anything away from either fighter, but it doesn't look like a lopsided victory by Sonny Liston would be that shocking.Nor does it look like a victory over Floyd Patterson would signify the coming of an invincible champion.

I can't see why anyone would think he was invincible, Liston had some huge flaws, one being to slow.

Whether you see it or not, he was considered unbeatable. Just like George Foreman after him. Foreman I can see, because he destroyed one of the toughest to ever lace up the gloves in Joe Frazier....I just don't understand exactly why Liston was afforded that as well because as much as I admire Floyd, he's no Joe Frazier.

Whether you see it or not, he was considered unbeatable. Just like George Foreman after him. Foreman I can see, because he destroyed one of the toughest to ever lace up the gloves in Joe Frazier....I just don't understand exactly why Liston was afforded that as well because as much as I admire Floyd, he's no Joe Frazier.

Liston also KOd Cleveland Williams early in brutal fashion, and it's no secret Floyd ducked him for a while. Plus the whole ex con added to it too I think.

Liston also KOd Cleveland Williams early in brutal fashion, and it's no secret Floyd ducked him for a while. Plus the whole ex con added to it too I think.

Yea, Cus was adament about not fighting Liston for the longest time. You may have something with the ex con bit. He was seen as quite the thug back in the day, being a kneebreaker for the mob and all.

Yea, Cus was adament about not fighting Liston for the longest time. You may have something with the ex con bit. He was seen as quite the thug back in the day, being a kneebreaker for the mob and all.

Yeah, a lot of controversy surrounding Liston, his REAL age, the second Ali fight, his death.

Yeah, a lot of controversy surrounding Liston, his REAL age, the second Ali fight, his death.

I think his associate with the mob is what held him back, that and everything else swirling around him. Had it not been for all of those 'whispers' he would have gotten a crack at the crown long before he actually did.

I rember Liston use to beat people up in prison for money.


He had a good jab to.:boxing:

hahaha, thats funny, sonny beating up guys in prison.

as floyd patterson is my favourite fighter i have to stick up for him a bit. Obviously he had that win over moore i have seen this fight and patterson completely destroyed moore much more impressively than rocky had managed. but floyds standing in the publics eye had increased significantly after winning back the title and he did it very impressively. Floyd had great offensive ability's and was possible the fastest heavyweight of all time. and many people thought that his hand speed would cause liston lots of problems. I wouldn’t agree with the opinion that many people have about him ducking other fighters. In fact from what i remember Tommy Jackson was the number 1 contender, Roy Harris was ranked in the top 5 and Ingemar Johansson was the number 1 contender. Floyd would have been more than willing to fight liston early in his career but cus refused you have to remember that patterson wanted to pay his way into a 3rd fight with liston.
I also disagree that johanson was able to tee of on patterson he only landed one good punch in the whole of there 2nd fight.
Another reason that liston was made out to be invincible was because floyd was one of the most popular sports man in america and no one could believe that america's favourite boxer could be KO'd in just 1 round.
Read the patterson book victory over my self to get a better insight into his career and i seriously recommend getting a patterson collection its great viewing.

Floyd was only stopped once, and was rated so highly because he was a explosive KO fighter. It would be impressive for anyone to KO him in the 1st round twice.
Add to that Listons size and incredibly intimidating 'aura' and u have a heavyweight monster.

I rember Liston use to beat people up in prison for money.


He had a good jab to.:boxing:

An underrated jab, that's for sure, with a VERY long reach for his height, 6'1", listed at 33 inches.

Floyd was only stopped once, and was rated so highly because he was a explosive KO fighter. It would be impressive for anyone to KO him in the 1st round twice.
Add to that Listons size and incredibly intimidating 'aura' and u have a heavyweight monster.



I'm not taking anything away from Floyd. I'm just shocked that alot of people were suprised that Floyd got dominated like he did. It doesn't take a boxing mastermind to look at Floyd's style and see where he is susceptible against anyone who has decent fundamentals and a good punch.

Floyd was made to order to be demolished by Liston.

I'm not sure how accurate they are, but the betting odds I found were :

Patterson-Liston I - Liston was a 9-3 favorite.
Patterson-Liston II - Liston was a 5-1 favorite.

Patterson remained a contender until 1970.. Liston had him devoured and destroyed within 30 seconds, both times.

Why was Sonny Liston considered invincible after destroying Floyd Patterson?
I have no idea. It's obvious Liston just overpowered him that had very little to do with out classing him. Kind of like Tyson vs Spinks. IMO

I have no idea. It's obvious Liston just overpowered him that had very little to do with out classing him. Kind of like Tyson vs Spinks. IMO

I didn't mean it in reference to outclassing him. But look at Floyd, he comes straight at you. Granted he has the speed to make up for some of his deficiencies but thats a huge detrement when facing someone like Liston.

Liston is in the Foreman mold, anyone that comes forward is made to order for you and that was Floyd. Combine that with his lack of a credible defense and subpar chin and you have a recipe for total destruction.

I didn't mean it in reference to outclassing him. But look at Floyd, he comes straight at you. Granted he has the speed to make up for some of his deficiencies but thats a huge detrement when facing someone like Liston.

Liston is in the Foreman mold, anyone that comes forward is made to order for you and that was Floyd. Combine that with his lack of a credible defense and subpar chin and you have a recipe for total destruction.
Yeah, your right about all that. It's hard to see how Liston would have been propelled in the minds of boxing experts from that type of match up.

Yeah, your right about all that. It's hard to see how Liston would have been propelled in the minds of boxing experts from that type of match up.

I'm thinking that Cus had once told Tyson that his worst nightmare would be someone like Liston or Foreman because Mike's MO was to come straight ahead. Maybe that is why Cus kept Floyd from fighting Liston for so long.

I'm thinking that Cus had once told Tyson that his worst nightmare would be someone like Liston or Foreman because Mike's MO was to come straight ahead. Maybe that is why Cus kept Floyd from fighting Liston for so long.
Maybe it's just me but Patterson didn't look as defensively skilled as Tyson, even though they were both trained by Cus. But yeah, I think a bigger stronger hevyweight would be a nightmare for Tyson just like an Ali would have. I also think Tyson would have been Foreman and Listons worst nightmare as well. No matter who it is, a big puncher is always going to be worried about another big puncher.

I'm thinking that Cus had once told Tyson that his worst nightmare would be someone like Liston or Foreman because Mike's MO was to come straight ahead. Maybe that is why Cus kept Floyd from fighting Liston for so long.

I heard Foreman would be a bad match up, but I never heard Liston? My only reason being is Tyson was a better version of Liston.

I also don't think Foreman would have been "Tyson's worst nightmare" Foreman weighed the same as Tyson, but was taller (making him lanky) and Tyson stocky, but over all the size is the same. Foreman was to clumsy to take out a young Tyson. Patterson however, would have huge problems with Foreman.

Ali I could see trying to tie Tyson up constantly, but losing in a 12 round decision for running the entire time.

your best bet for a prime Tyson killer would be a large (240+ lbs) fighter with over all rounded skills (ex: late lennox lewis)

I heard Foreman would be a bad match up, but I never heard Liston? My only reason being is Tyson was a better version of Liston.

I also don't think Foreman would have been "Tyson's worst nightmare" Foreman weighed the same as Tyson, but was taller (making him lanky) and Tyson stocky, but over all the size is the same. Foreman was to clumsy to take out a young Tyson. Patterson however, would have huge problems with Foreman.

Ali I could see trying to tie Tyson up constantly, but losing in a 12 round decision for running the entire time.

your best bet for a prime Tyson killer would be a large (240+ lbs) fighter with over all rounded skills (ex: late lennox lewis)

Well I think the quote at the time, and this came from Don King's matchmaker Bobby Goodman, was that Tyson was "scared ****less of George Foreman" and that is why the fight never materialized.

But thats beside the point, my original reason for mentioning that was Patterson-Liston. Liston was like Foreman in the aspect that the ideal fighter to beat him was a tall fighter with good reach and movement - in essence a fighter that could fight from a distance and then move away. The smaller swarming types were made to order and that theory was proven correct.

I heard Foreman would be a bad match up, but I never heard Liston? My only reason being is Tyson was a better version of Liston.

I also don't think Foreman would have been "Tyson's worst nightmare" Foreman weighed the same as Tyson, but was taller (making him lanky) and Tyson stocky, but over all the size is the same. Foreman was to clumsy to take out a young Tyson. Patterson however, would have huge problems with Foreman.

Ali I could see trying to tie Tyson up constantly, but losing in a 12 round decision for running the entire time.

your best bet for a prime Tyson killer would be a large (240+ lbs) fighter with over all rounded skills (ex: late lennox lewis)

So you have a prime Tyson beating primes Ali, Liston and Foreman but losing to the greatest of all time: Buster Douglas.

So you have a prime Tyson beating primes Ali, Liston and Foreman but losing to the greatest of all time: Buster Douglas.

Well I think there are two types of fighters that would have beaten a prime Tyson. First a big strong puncher who would rain down the pain when Tyson came inside to set up his combinations. Hard punchers like Foreman, who also had a jackhammer of a jab, would have been classic at this. Those big shots would keep Tyson off balance and ripe for the others that would follow.

Foreman wouldn't need to land a shot on the jaw to knock him off balance, just as long as he was throwing Tyson would feel the power.

Second, someone who shows no fear and comes at Tyson. Boxes him and counter punches him and isn't intimidated.

Buster had a grand game plan that night, but if the Tyson of the Berbick fight had shown up it may have been a different ball game.

Well I think there are two types of fighters that would have beaten a prime Tyson. First a big strong puncher who would rain down the pain when Tyson came inside to set up his combinations. Hard punchers like Foreman, who also had a jackhammer of a jab, would have been classic at this. Those big shots would keep Tyson off balance and ripe for the others that would follow.

Foreman wouldn't need to land a shot on the jaw to knock him off balance, just as long as he was throwing Tyson would feel the power.

Second, someone who shows no fear and comes at Tyson. Boxes him and counter punches him and isn't intimidated.

Buster had a grand game plan that night, but if the Tyson of the Berbick fight had shown up it may have been a different ball game.

I totally agree with your assessment of a Tyson-Foreman matchup, and in no way do I put Buster Douglas on the level of Tyson, though I do give him credit for fighting one hell of a fight that night. Foreman, Liston, and a post-Emanuel Steward Lewis, I would have bet money on against Tyson, though he presents a hard night for pretty much everyone else.

I totally agree with your assessment of a Tyson-Foreman matchup, and in no way do I put Buster Douglas on the level of Tyson, though I do give him credit for fighting one hell of a fight that night. Foreman, Liston, and a post-Emanuel Steward Lewis, I would have bet money on against Tyson, though he presents a hard night for pretty much everyone else.

Plus with Foreman and Liston the intimidation factors would not work. I think it would work in reverse actually had they fought Tyson. I think Tyson would be the one intimidated.

Plus with Foreman and Liston the intimidation factors would not work. I think it would work in reverse actually had they fought Tyson. I think Tyson would be the one intimidated.
I think in that situation, they all would have been scared.

I think in that situation, they all would have been scared.

Nah, not with Foreman or Liston. They were the originators of the intimidation factor in the modern era.

I'm not taking anything away from Floyd. I'm just shocked that alot of people were suprised that Floyd got dominated like he did. It doesn't take a boxing mastermind to look at Floyd's style and see where he is susceptible against anyone who has decent fundamentals and a good punch.

Floyd was made to order to be demolished by Liston.

I'm not sure how accurate they are, but the betting odds I found were :

Patterson-Liston I - Liston was a 9-3 favorite.
Patterson-Liston II - Liston was a 5-1 favorite.

In hindsight its easy to see Liston dominating Patterson. I dont think its ever as easy before a fight. Especially not in that devastating fashion.

Im sure many people thought Patterson had the ability, speed and power to make it a real fight. Even after the Liston fight Patterson fought some big punchers and did well.
Who simply walks through the heavyweight champion? It took Tyson 2 rounds to stop Berbick.
To win the title in a matter of seconds, is simply awesome. Liston did it twice. It was probably more devastating than any of Tysons wins.

yeah most people thought that pattersons speed would give liston real trouble. and pattersons did have the best defence but he was very good at slipping punches. watch the archie moore fight patterson was brilliant. I think i will have to upload some of patterson's early fights so you can have a better look at him.

Well all of the betting odds I could find place Sonny as the clear favorite in each bout hence the reason I asked the question. Surely those at the time could see the clear problems Sonny presented to Floyd. True Floyd had the speed advantage but that doesn't change the fact he's a straight ahead fighter.