i don't even know what to say just want your opinions
who wins?:beerchug: :beerchug:

Marciano, he hit harder, was more aggressive and had a better chin.

Marciano, he hit harder, was more aggressive and had a better chin.

I agree but I'll take it a step further. I think Marciano would have early-mid problems because of the fact Johnson was a boxer who moved and relied on defense. Everyone knows of the problems Rock was with boxers.

I don't think conditioning would be a factor because both were conditioned to go the distance. But like apples said Marciano wasa different animal than Johnson had ever faced before plus I don't think Jack had the power to effectively keep Marciano at bay, not in the least bit.

Rock wasn't technically pretty watch but he was super aggressive, hit with bad intentions and would eventually get the better of Papa Jack.

Little Rocky gets man handled like Tommy Burns, while Johnson stands there smiling and riping hard fast shots on the inside. LOL

Marciano would have to score a KO, cause theirs no way he could outbox Johnson.


It could go either way.

Marciano would have to score a KO, cause theirs no way he could outbox Johnson.


It could go either way.


Rocky never outboxed anyone in his life, unless you count the heavy bag, and I don't think this would be the exception. lol

Little Rocky gets man handled like Tommy Burns, while Johnson stands there smiling and riping hard fast shots on the inside. LOL

Let's see, Johnson lost to Bob Thompson (??????) in his 3rd pro fight, then got knocked out by John Haines (??????) in the 5th when he was 21, then got knocked out in the 3rd by Joe Choynski (??????) when he was 22, then lost to Hank Griffin (???????) when he was 23, then lost to Marvin Hart (???????) when he was 27. You are somehow comparing Tommy Burns, a 5'7" guy with 3 losses and 8 draws already on his record to Rocky Marciano? C'mon, be real.

Let's see, Johnson lost to Bob Thompson (??????) in his 3rd pro fight, then got knocked out by John Haines (??????) in the 5th when he was 21, then got knocked out in the 3rd by Joe Choynski (??????) when he was 22, then lost to Hank Griffin (???????) when he was 23, then lost to Marvin Hart (???????) when he was 27. You are somehow comparing Tommy Burns, a 5'7" guy with 3 losses and 8 draws already on his record to Rocky Marciano? C'mon, be real.

Johnson was half-starved in most of his early fights. Plus those names you are mentioning were well known in Johnson's day. Just because you never heard of them doesn't mean they weren't any good.

Johnson was half-starved in most of his early fights. Plus those names you are mentioning were well known in Johnson's day. Just because you never heard of them doesn't mean they weren't any good.


I agree!

Just to let you know, most Boxing Historians and Experts rate Johnson higher then Rocky. Also, if your interested in the results of the two on "Boxing Data" I ran it several times using 100 bouts and Johnson came out on top 2/3 of the time.

Let's see, Johnson lost to Bob Thompson (??????) in his 3rd pro fight, then got knocked out by John Haines (??????) in the 5th when he was 21, then got knocked out in the 3rd by Joe Choynski (??????) when he was 22, then lost to Hank Griffin (???????) when he was 23, then lost to Marvin Hart (???????) when he was 27. You are somehow comparing Tommy Burns, a 5'7" guy with 3 losses and 8 draws already on his record to Rocky Marciano? C'mon, be real.
Hey, at least I put something out there, you didn't. I don't know if it would have been as simple as I described it, but I could definitely see the fight going somewhere along those lines. Let me guess, you think Marciano would have knocked Johnson out too? Do you think Marciano fighting with his relentless assault could have sustained it for 45 rounds? LOL

Jack Johnson would present Rocky Marciano with more than a decent challenge considering his marvelous defensive abilities. He usually handled fighters coming at him with relative ease, and I believe he would control the fight early on.

How ever, Johnson was best fighting at a fairly controlled pace. Against Marciano he would have to adjust to someone coming at him at all times, always throwing punches with bad intentions. And Marciano had more power than anyone Johnson ever faced. Further, Marciano would not tire, nor would he get discouraged from Johsons tendency to tie up his foes. In fact, I believe he would have a hard time tying up Marciano, considering Marcianos short arms, busy workrate and superior power.

I see this fight ending in a brutal fashion for Johnson. After controlling the first 5-7 rounds, Marciano would start to seriously connect with those bombs. Keeping his power throughout any fight, Marciano would begin to hurt Johnson at this time, pounding his upperbody with jolting shots. Hurting and bruised, I envision Johnson going down for keeps somewhere after the 10th round.

Rocky Marciano by late ko.

Jack Johnson would present Rocky Marciano with more than a decent challenge considering his marvelous defensive abilities. He usually handled fighters coming at him with relative ease, and I believe he would control the fight early on.

How ever, Johnson was best fighting at a fairly controlled pace. Against Marciano he would have to adjust to someone coming at him at all times, always throwing punches with bad intentions. And Marciano had more power than anyone Johnson ever faced. Further, Marciano would not tire, nor would he get discouraged from Johsons tendency to tie up his foes. In fact, I believe he would have a hard time tying up Marciano, considering Marcianos short arms, busy workrate and superior power.

I see this fight ending in a brutal fashion for Johnson. After controlling the first 5-7 rounds, Marciano would start to seriously connect with those bombs. Keeping his power throughout any fight, Marciano would begin to hurt Johnson at this time, pounding his upperbody with jolting shots. Hurting and bruised, I envision Johnson going down for keeps somewhere after the 10th round.

Rocky Marciano by late ko.

I feel the same way. I also think Frazier would whack him out of there.

Johnson fought at a measured pace and I see the likes of Marciano and Frazier who would swarm all over him, crowd him and be throwing hard punchers at a rate that Johnson just wouldn't like. Not that Johnson wasn't a great defensive fighter, it's just that guys like rocky had unending stamina and threw bombs none stop. After early success, Johnson would be worn down and hurt.

Rocky Marciano

I think your not giving credit to Johnson on his stamina. He boxed 13 bouts that went 20 rounds or more. He did lose 14 bouts in his career, BUT 7 of them were after he turned 48 years old. The other losses were mostly at the start of his career. When he was in his prime, he ruled the Heavyweight division. Those who saw him box stated that he was in a class of his own.

Just look at the boxers he beat, Sam McVea, Joe Jeannette and Sam Langford, this was during the Black Era when the Balck boxers had to box each other over and over again. He was way ahead of his time.

Hey, at least I put something out there, you didn't. I don't know if it would have been as simple as I described it, but I could definitely see the fight going somewhere along those lines. Let me guess, you think Marciano would have knocked Johnson out too? Do you think Marciano fighting with his relentless assault could have sustained it for 45 rounds? LOL

I can guarantee it wouldn't last 45 rounds, yes.

Like I stated before, Most Boxing Historians and Experts have Johnson a head of Marciano. Here's some of them:

James Slater:

1. Muhammad Ali - Simply The Greatest, he fought every deserving contender in an era absolutely crammed with them. Also, earns points as the first man in history to win the title three times.

2. Jack Johnson - Way ahead of his time, he was a defensive master. Neither before or since has a heavyweight champion been so blessed in the ability of avoiding blows. Also had hurtful punching power.

3. Jack Dempsey - Revolutionised the sport with his savage fighting style. Also had an absolutely granite jaw.

4. Joe Louis - The longest reign in heavyweight history - an astonishing, never to be beaten, record 25 title defences. Pure one punch KO power, never wasted a shot.

5. Rocky Marciano - Retired unbeaten! Seemingly impossible to hurt. Also had endless stamina and vicious punching power.

6. George Foreman - The oldest heavyweight champion in history. Had freakish strength and thudding punch power. Also had more stamina in later career. Only ever stopped once, by the guy at the top of this list.

7. Larry Holmes - Vastly underrated, second only to Louis in number of title defences. Possibly possessed the finest jab in heavyweight history.

8. Sonny Liston - Had sheer brute force and power. Also a decent boxer, with a ramrod of a jab. Was at his peak in late 1950’s, an old man against Clay/Ali.
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9. Joe Frazier - Owned probably the best left hook in heavyweight boxing. Also had amazing heart and an unlimited ability at taking punishment.

10. Evander Holyfield - Proved all his critics wrong when they said he wasn’t big enough. Used incredible guts and courage to defeat the huge Riddick Bowe. Also shocked the world by smashing Tyson. Finally, earns points for becoming the only four time heavyweight champ (although only twice in linear terms).


Monte D. Cox

THE TOP 20 HEAVYWEIGHTS OF ALL TIME

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Jack Dempsey
Sonny Liston
Jim Jeffries
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Riddick Bowe
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Gene Tunney
James J. Corbett
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Max Schmeling<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> BERT SUGAR'S TOP 10 FIGHTERS

1. Sugar Ray Robinson, welterweight-middleweight, 1940-65
2. Henry Armstrong, featherweight-lightweight-welterweight, 1931-45
3. Willie Pep, featherweight, 1940-59
4. Joe Louis, heavyweight, 1934-51
5. Harry Greb, middleweight, light heavyweight, 1913-26
6. Benny Leonard, lightweight, 1911-32
7. Muhammad Ali, heavyweight, 1960-81
8. Roberto Duran, lightweight, welterweight, junior middleweight, 1967-2001
9. Jack Dempsey, heavyweight, 1914-27
10. Jack Johnson, heavyweight, 1897-1928
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Source: "Boxing's Greatest Fighters," 2006

Sugar's top 10 heavyweights

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes

Source: "Ringside: The Ten Greatest Heavyweights," ESPN Classic
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Nat Fleischer, Founder of Ring Magazine, 1958, 1971.

1.Jack Johnson
2.Jim Jeffries
3.Bob Fitzsimmons
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Jim Corbett
6.Joe Louis
7.Sam Langford
8.Gene Tunney
9.Max Schemling
10.Rocky Marciano
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Charley Rose, 1968
1.Sam Langford
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Joe Louis
5.Jim Jeffries
6.Gene Tunney
7.Sam McVey
8.Rocky Marciano
9.Jim Corbett
10.Max Baer

World Boxing 1974 Readers Poll
1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Dempsey
3.Rocky Marciano
4.Jack Johnson
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Joe Frazier
7.Gene Tunney
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Sonny Liston
10.Ezzard Charles
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Nat Loubet, 1975
1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Dempsey
3.Jim Jeffries
4.Jack Johnson
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Gene Tunney
7.Bob Fitzsimmons
8.James J. Corbett
9.Muhammad Ali
10.Joe Frazier
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John Durant -Author of "The Heavyweight Champions" (1976)

1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Muhammad Ali
5.Gene Tunney
6.Joe Frazier
7.Jim Jeffries
8.James J. Corbett
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Max Schemling
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Bill Brennan 1978 (Former President of the WBA)

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Jim Jeffries
7.Max Schemeling
8.Rocky Marciano
9.James J. Corebett
10.Bob Fitzsimmons



Big Book of Boxing Reader Poll, 1978

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Rocky Marciano
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Jack Johnson
6.Gene Tunney
7.Joe Frazier
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Ezzard Charles
10.Sonny Liston
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->Bert Sugar, 1991

1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson

Arthur Harris, 1992 (Nov 1992 Boxing Scene)

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Larry Holmes
8.Jersey Joe Walcott
9.Joe Frazier
10.Sonny Liston
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->Nigel Collins, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Evander Holyfield
4.Larry Holmes
5.George Foreman
6.Jack Johnson
7.Rocky Marciano
8.Joe Frazier
9.Jack Dempsey
10.Sonny Liston



Herbert Goldman, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Sonny Liston
4.Mike Tyson
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Johnson
7.Jack Dempsey
8.George Foreman
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Joe Frazier
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Herbert Goldman, 1987
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1.Muhammad Ali
2.Sonny Liston
3.Larry Holmes
4.Jack Johnson
5.Jack Dempsey
6.Joe Louis
7.Rocky Marciano
8.Harry Wills
9.George Foreman
10.Joe Frazier
11.Mike Tyson
12.Joe Jeannette
13.Jersey Joe Walcott
14.Max Baer
15.Max Schmeling

Steve Farhood, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Johnson
4.Larry Holmes
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Jim Jeffries
8.Evander Holyfield
9.Mike Tyson
10.George Foreman



BBC Sports, 2004

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Johnson
4.Larry Holmes
5.Jack Dempsey
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Lennox Lewis
8.Mike Tyson
9.George Foreman
10.Evander Holyfield
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IBRO Member Poll, 2005

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Larry Holmes
7.James Jeffries
8.George Foreman
9.Sonny Liston
10.Joe Frazier

Tracy Callis
Heavyweights:

1.Jim Jeffries
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Joe Louis
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Gene Tunney
7.Jim Corbett
8.Sonny Liston
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Larry Holmes

Lou Duva
1- Rocky Marciano. (Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Billy Conn, Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Sonny Liston, Ernie Shavers, Jim Braddock and Max Baer. Special mention: Max Schmelling and 'Jersey' Joe Walcott)


Jimmy Glenn
1- Joe Louis. (Jack Johnson, Muhammad Ali, Rocky Marciano, 'Jersery' Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Larry Holmes, Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey and Floyd Patterson).

Al Certo
1- Rocky Marciano, 2- Joe Louis, 3- 'Jersey' Joe Walcott. (Muhammad Ali, Roland LaStarza, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Jim Braddock, Max Baer and Max Schmelling. Special mention: Billy Conn).

Angelo Dundee
1- Muhammad Ali. (Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Jack Demspey, Max Schmelling and Jim Braddock).

Gil Clancy
1- Joe Louis, 2- Rocky Marciano, 3- Muhammad Ali. (Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Jack Johnson, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson).

Buddy McGirt
1- Muhammad Ali. (Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, 'Jersey' Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes, Jack Johnson and Evander Holyfield).

Kevin Rooney
1- Joe Louis, 2- Rocky Marciano, 3- Muhammad Ali, 4- Mike Tyson, 5- George Foreman, 6- Floyd Patterson, 7- Joe Frazier, 8- Jack Dempsey, 9- Evander Holyfield, 10- Jack Johnson.

Freddie Roach
1- Joe Louis, 2 Muhammad Ali, 3- Larry Holmes, 4- Joe Frazier, 5- Evander Holyfield, 6- Jack Johnson, 7- Rocky Marciano, 8- Mike Tyson, 9- George Foreman, 10- James Toney.

Manny Steward
1- Muhammad Ali, 2- Joe Louis, 3- Larry Holmes, 4- George Foreman, 5- Lennox Lewis, 6- Gene Tunney, 7- Jack Johnson, 8- Rocky Marciano, 9- Sonny Liston, 10- Mike Tyson.

David Martinez
#1 JACK JOHNSON
#2 MUHAMMAD ALI
#3 JOE LOUIS
#4 JACK DEMPSEY
#5 ROCKY MARCIANO
#6 GENE TUNNEY

I'm glad Mike Tyson was in a lot of those lists, he often gets left behind by the "boxing critics" due to his upset.

Like I stated before, Most Boxing Historians and Experts have Johnson a head of Marciano. Here's some of them:

James Slater:

1. Muhammad Ali - Simply The Greatest, he fought every deserving contender in an era absolutely crammed with them. Also, earns points as the first man in history to win the title three times.

2. Jack Johnson - Way ahead of his time, he was a defensive master. Neither before or since has a heavyweight champion been so blessed in the ability of avoiding blows. Also had hurtful punching power.

3. Jack Dempsey - Revolutionised the sport with his savage fighting style. Also had an absolutely granite jaw.

4. Joe Louis - The longest reign in heavyweight history - an astonishing, never to be beaten, record 25 title defences. Pure one punch KO power, never wasted a shot.

5. Rocky Marciano - Retired unbeaten! Seemingly impossible to hurt. Also had endless stamina and vicious punching power.

6. George Foreman - The oldest heavyweight champion in history. Had freakish strength and thudding punch power. Also had more stamina in later career. Only ever stopped once, by the guy at the top of this list.

7. Larry Holmes - Vastly underrated, second only to Louis in number of title defences. Possibly possessed the finest jab in heavyweight history.

8. Sonny Liston - Had sheer brute force and power. Also a decent boxer, with a ramrod of a jab. Was at his peak in late 1950’s, an old man against Clay/Ali.
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9. Joe Frazier - Owned probably the best left hook in heavyweight boxing. Also had amazing heart and an unlimited ability at taking punishment.

10. Evander Holyfield - Proved all his critics wrong when they said he wasn’t big enough. Used incredible guts and courage to defeat the huge Riddick Bowe. Also shocked the world by smashing Tyson. Finally, earns points for becoming the only four time heavyweight champ (although only twice in linear terms).


Monte D. Cox

THE TOP 20 HEAVYWEIGHTS OF ALL TIME

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Jack Dempsey
Sonny Liston
Jim Jeffries
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Riddick Bowe
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Gene Tunney
James J. Corbett
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Max Schmeling<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> BERT SUGAR'S TOP 10 FIGHTERS

1. Sugar Ray Robinson, welterweight-middleweight, 1940-65
2. Henry Armstrong, featherweight-lightweight-welterweight, 1931-45
3. Willie Pep, featherweight, 1940-59
4. Joe Louis, heavyweight, 1934-51
5. Harry Greb, middleweight, light heavyweight, 1913-26
6. Benny Leonard, lightweight, 1911-32
7. Muhammad Ali, heavyweight, 1960-81
8. Roberto Duran, lightweight, welterweight, junior middleweight, 1967-2001
9. Jack Dempsey, heavyweight, 1914-27
10. Jack Johnson, heavyweight, 1897-1928
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->
Source: "Boxing's Greatest Fighters," 2006

Sugar's top 10 heavyweights

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes

Source: "Ringside: The Ten Greatest Heavyweights," ESPN Classic
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Nat Fleischer, Founder of Ring Magazine, 1958, 1971.

1.Jack Johnson
2.Jim Jeffries
3.Bob Fitzsimmons
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Jim Corbett
6.Joe Louis
7.Sam Langford
8.Gene Tunney
9.Max Schemling
10.Rocky Marciano
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Charley Rose, 1968
1.Sam Langford
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Joe Louis
5.Jim Jeffries
6.Gene Tunney
7.Sam McVey
8.Rocky Marciano
9.Jim Corbett
10.Max Baer

World Boxing 1974 Readers Poll
1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Dempsey
3.Rocky Marciano
4.Jack Johnson
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Joe Frazier
7.Gene Tunney
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Sonny Liston
10.Ezzard Charles
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Nat Loubet, 1975
1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Dempsey
3.Jim Jeffries
4.Jack Johnson
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Gene Tunney
7.Bob Fitzsimmons
8.James J. Corbett
9.Muhammad Ali
10.Joe Frazier
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John Durant -Author of "The Heavyweight Champions" (1976)

1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Muhammad Ali
5.Gene Tunney
6.Joe Frazier
7.Jim Jeffries
8.James J. Corbett
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Max Schemling
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Bill Brennan 1978 (Former President of the WBA)

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Jim Jeffries
7.Max Schemeling
8.Rocky Marciano
9.James J. Corebett
10.Bob Fitzsimmons



Big Book of Boxing Reader Poll, 1978

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Rocky Marciano
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Jack Johnson
6.Gene Tunney
7.Joe Frazier
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Ezzard Charles
10.Sonny Liston
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->Bert Sugar, 1991

1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson

Arthur Harris, 1992 (Nov 1992 Boxing Scene)

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Larry Holmes
8.Jersey Joe Walcott
9.Joe Frazier
10.Sonny Liston
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->Nigel Collins, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Evander Holyfield
4.Larry Holmes
5.George Foreman
6.Jack Johnson
7.Rocky Marciano
8.Joe Frazier
9.Jack Dempsey
10.Sonny Liston



Herbert Goldman, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Sonny Liston
4.Mike Tyson
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Johnson
7.Jack Dempsey
8.George Foreman
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Joe Frazier
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Herbert Goldman, 1987
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1.Muhammad Ali
2.Sonny Liston
3.Larry Holmes
4.Jack Johnson
5.Jack Dempsey
6.Joe Louis
7.Rocky Marciano
8.Harry Wills
9.George Foreman
10.Joe Frazier
11.Mike Tyson
12.Joe Jeannette
13.Jersey Joe Walcott
14.Max Baer
15.Max Schmeling

Steve Farhood, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Johnson
4.Larry Holmes
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Jim Jeffries
8.Evander Holyfield
9.Mike Tyson
10.George Foreman



BBC Sports, 2004

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Johnson
4.Larry Holmes
5.Jack Dempsey
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Lennox Lewis
8.Mike Tyson
9.George Foreman
10.Evander Holyfield
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IBRO Member Poll, 2005

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Larry Holmes
7.James Jeffries
8.George Foreman
9.Sonny Liston
10.Joe Frazier

Tracy Callis
Heavyweights:

1.Jim Jeffries
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Joe Louis
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Gene Tunney
7.Jim Corbett
8.Sonny Liston
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Larry Holmes

Lou Duva
1- Rocky Marciano. (Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Billy Conn, Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Sonny Liston, Ernie Shavers, Jim Braddock and Max Baer. Special mention: Max Schmelling and 'Jersey' Joe Walcott)


Jimmy Glenn
1- Joe Louis. (Jack Johnson, Muhammad Ali, Rocky Marciano, 'Jersery' Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Larry Holmes, Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey and Floyd Patterson).

Al Certo
1- Rocky Marciano, 2- Joe Louis, 3- 'Jersey' Joe Walcott. (Muhammad Ali, Roland LaStarza, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Jim Braddock, Max Baer and Max Schmelling. Special mention: Billy Conn).

Angelo Dundee
1- Muhammad Ali. (Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Jack Demspey, Max Schmelling and Jim Braddock).

Gil Clancy
1- Joe Louis, 2- Rocky Marciano, 3- Muhammad Ali. (Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Jack Johnson, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson).

Buddy McGirt
1- Muhammad Ali. (Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, 'Jersey' Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes, Jack Johnson and Evander Holyfield).

Kevin Rooney
1- Joe Louis, 2- Rocky Marciano, 3- Muhammad Ali, 4- Mike Tyson, 5- George Foreman, 6- Floyd Patterson, 7- Joe Frazier, 8- Jack Dempsey, 9- Evander Holyfield, 10- Jack Johnson.

Freddie Roach
1- Joe Louis, 2 Muhammad Ali, 3- Larry Holmes, 4- Joe Frazier, 5- Evander Holyfield, 6- Jack Johnson, 7- Rocky Marciano, 8- Mike Tyson, 9- George Foreman, 10- James Toney.

Manny Steward
1- Muhammad Ali, 2- Joe Louis, 3- Larry Holmes, 4- George Foreman, 5- Lennox Lewis, 6- Gene Tunney, 7- Jack Johnson, 8- Rocky Marciano, 9- Sonny Liston, 10- Mike Tyson.

David Martinez
#1 JACK JOHNSON
#2 MUHAMMAD ALI
#3 JOE LOUIS
#4 JACK DEMPSEY
#5 ROCKY MARCIANO
#6 GENE TUNNEY

Jack Johnson ahead of Joe Louis is just rediculous.

Jack Johnson ahead of Joe Louis is just rediculous.
I agree, and a lot of those lists are ridiculous to me.

Most of these guys are so called experts and they do know their boxing. No two Boxing Historians or Experts will ever agree on a Top 10 rating. Some of the Greatest Boxing people I know of or heard of, rate Johnson very high on their list. I think if you count them all up Louis was a head of Johnson on 22 of the 27 lists.

I have done a lot of research and I also went through old newspapers for years and when Dempsey became Champion, boxing people would say, Dempsey is good but he is no Jack Johnson. When Louis was the Champion they said the same thing, Louis is the best we have now but he would look like an Amateur if he ever fought guys like Johnson or Dempsey. I heard the same thing when Ali was the Champion.

Johnson was known as the Greatest defensive boxer of all-times. Nat Fleischer, Founder of Ring Magazine, rated him #1 and Louis #6, and he saw both when they were at their best. Most Boxing Historians and Experts rate Louis a little higher, BUT most of them never saw Johnson in his prime.

Just for the record, I have Ali, then Louis as my 1 and 2, with Johnson somewhere further down, BUT higher then Rocky.

Some of these lists are kind of farfetched. LOL Gotta respect them tho' just for the fact of who authored them.

Here's some others on a pound for pound basis:

Max Kellerman:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Harry Greb
5. Sam Langford
6. Pernell Whitaker
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Benny Leonard
10. Ezzard Charles
10a. Jimmy Wilde
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Tony Atlas:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Benny Leonard
5. Sam Langford
6. Harry Greb
7. Mickey Walker
8. Roberto Duran
9. Gene Tunney
10. Carlos Monzon
10a. Joe Louis

Ring Magazine's list of the 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years
<hr align="center" color="black" noshade="noshade" size="1" width="100%">

We should note the dates, i think this is what relegates a Benny Leonard and Greb back a little from where many would have them.

I particularly like their thinking outside the box. Many modern fighters seem to be a bit descriminated against at times. Not here. We have a SRL and a Pernell Whitaker in the top 10, which IMO shows the lists ability to move with the times and not live exclusively in the days of yore. The placings of a Ross or Williams also show a recognition of the slightly underrated. A Burley above a Micheal Spinks shows the list has not descriminated against a ducked contender. They also have two Heavyweights in the top 10.

All in all i have seen far worse lists than this one.

2002

Sugar Ray Robinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray_Robinson)
Henry Armstrong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Armstrong)
Muhammad Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali)
Joe Louis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Louis)
Roberto Duran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Duran)
Willie Pep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Pep)
Harry Greb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Greb)
Benny Leonard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Leonard)
Sugar Ray Leonard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray_Leonard)
Pernell Whitaker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernell_Whitaker)
Carlos Monzon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Monzon)
Rocky Marciano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Marciano)
Ezzard Charles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezzard_Charles)
Archie Moore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Moore)
Sandy Saddler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Saddler)
Jack Dempsey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Dempsey)
Marvin Hagler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Hagler)
Julio César Chávez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julio_C%C3%A9sar_Ch%C3%A1vez)
Eder Jofre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eder_Jofre)
Alexis Arguello (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Arguello)
Barney Ross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Ross)
Evander Holyfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evander_Holyfield)
Ike Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ike_Williams_%28boxer%29)
Salvador Sanchez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Sanchez)
George Foreman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Foreman)
Kid Gavilan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Gavilan)
Larry Holmes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Holmes)
Mickey Walker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Walker)
Ruben Olivares (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruben_Olivares)
Gene Tunney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Tunney)
Dick Tiger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tiger)
Fighting Harada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Harada)
Emile Griffith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emile_Griffith)
Tony Canzoneri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Canzoneri)
Aaron Pryor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Pryor)
Pascual Perez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascual_Perez_%28boxer%29)
Miguel Canto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Canto)
Manuel Ortiz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Ortiz_%28boxer%29)
Charley Burley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_Burley)
Carmen Basilio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_Basilio)
Michael Spinks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Spinks)
Joe Frazier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Frazier)
Khaosai Galaxy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaosai_Galaxy)
Roy Jones, Jr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Jones%2C_Jr.)
Tiger Flowers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Flowers)
Panama Al Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Al_Brown)
Kid Chocolate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Chocolate)
Joe Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Brown_%28boxer%29)
Tommy Loughran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Loughran)
Bernard Hopkins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Hopkins)
Felix Trinidad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Trinidad)
Jake LaMotta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_LaMotta)
Lennox Lewis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennox_Lewis)
Wilfredo Gómez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfredo_G%C3%B3mez)
Bob Foster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Foster)
Jose Napoles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Napoles)
Billy Conn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Conn)
Jimmy McLarnin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_McLarnin)
Pancho Villa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Villa_%28boxer%29)
Carlos Ortiz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ortiz)
Bob Montgomery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Montgomery_%28boxer%29)
Freddie Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Miller_%28boxer%29)
Benny Lynch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Lynch)
Beau Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beau_Jack)
Azumah Nelson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azumah_Nelson)
Eusebio Pedroza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebio_Pedroza)
Thomas Hearns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hearns)
Wilfred Benitez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfred_Benitez)
Antonio Cervantes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Cervantes)
Ricardo Lopez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Lopez)
Sonny Liston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Liston)
Mike Tyson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Tyson)
Vicente Saldivar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Saldivar)
Gene Fullmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Fullmer)
Oscar de la Hoya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_de_la_Hoya)
Carlos Zarate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Zarate)
Marcel Cerdan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Cerdan)
Flash Elorde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Elorde)
Mike McCallum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_McCallum)
Harold Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Johnson_%28boxer%29) <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
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I have done a lot of research and I also went through old newspapers for years and when Dempsey became Champion, boxing people would say, Dempsey is good but he is no Jack Johnson. When Louis was the Champion they said the same thing, Louis is the best we have now but he would look like an Amateur if he ever fought guys like Johnson or Dempsey. I heard the same thing when Ali was the Champion.

thats the case with a lot of newer fighter's to, but what can you do.

In all honesty though, Joe Louis was clearly a batter boxer than Johnson, Johnson was innovative for his time but he was still far from being the sharpest tool in the shed.

The same goes for Ali, he was clearly a better boxer than Louis, etc it keeps going and going..I can name guys I think were better than Ali, but I won't as to not stir up trouble.

robinson
ray leonard
armstrong
pep
roberto duran
sam langford
whitaker
ali
tunney
jones jr

my list changes all the time,but i think the highlighted ones shouldn't be moved down.