Some of boxing's greatest fighters ruled the lightweight division at one time or another during their careers. The question is, who was the greatest lightweight champion of them all?

No Joe Gans, Battling Nelson? Shame, shame, shame...

Where is Gans?

muhammad ali, without a doubt

arturo gatti, hands down

No Joe Gans, Battling Nelson? Shame, shame, shame...Why stop with those two? After all, there's no Lou Ambers, Beau Jack, or Sammy Angott! Hell, I'd love to list every titleholder that ever lived, but there's only room for (sniff) ten. Why? why? why?
:boxing:

Where is Gans?God only knows... Are you suggesting he's #1?
:boxing:

muhammad ali, without a doubtYou're either a "Smart Ass" or a "Dumb Ass." No way of telling which...
:boxing:

I had no idea ali fought as a lightweight. WOW :owned:

Needless to say, Duran will continue to lead the poll field, hands (of stone) down. For a different spin, I hereby rank my top 10 in the division (my selection coincides with the poll except for Joe Gans intead of Sweet Pea):

Roberto Durán
Benny Leonard
Henry Armstrong
Joe Gans
Barney Ross
Joe Brown
Alexis Arguello
Julio Cesar Chavez
Carlos Ortiz
Tony Canzoneri

honestly, I can see Whitaker beating them all, including Duran. but Duran mauled through his opponents, he had the most dominant run there.
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I dont think many boxing fans have seen enough of most of those fighters to judge properly.
I know for a fact many posters here havent seen Duran as lightweight, and therfore dont rate him.

Anyway, its either Duran, Leonard or Gans, who ive never seen.

muhammad ali, without a doubtyou're a ****ing idiot.

:no:

I dont think many boxing fans have seen enough of most of those fighters to judge properly.
I know for a fact many posters here havent seen Duran as lightweight, and therfore dont rate him.

Anyway, its either Duran, Leonard or Gans, who ive never seen.duran is obviously the better lightweight. :fing02:

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I dont think many boxing fans have seen enough of most of those fighters to judge properly.
I know for a fact many posters here havent seen Duran as lightweight, and therfore dont rate him.

Anyway, its either Duran, Leonard or Gans, who ive never seen.I would counter that many people have not seen Abe Lincoln as president either, but his life is well documented by HISTORY. (Is this the "Boxing History" forum, or am I disoriented?) With regard to Duran as lightweight, there's this thing called "youtube." (See example above).

Joe Gans makes many p4p lists, let alone Lightweight greats. I would select either him or Roberto Duran. Gans is documented as having been an expert on human anatomy. Not just the makeup of a person, but also on how the tendons and muscles moved while throwing a punch, and how every part of another body would react to receiving certain levels of punishment. He spent time practicing perfect punching (ie: timing, speed, force, etc.) moreso than perhaps any other fighter in history. He defeated men much larger than him, though there's really nothing to watch to compare him to other fighters.

Joe Gans makes many p4p lists, let alone Lightweight greats. I would select either him or Roberto Duran. Gans is documented as having been an expert on human anatomy. Not just the makeup of a person, but also on how the tendons and muscles moved while throwing a punch, and how every part of another body would react to receiving certain levels of punishment. He spent time practicing perfect punching (ie: timing, speed, force, etc.) moreso than perhaps any other fighter in history. He defeated men much larger than him, though there's really nothing to watch to compare him to other fighters.Duran also defeated men larger than himself - Bizarro, Moore and Barkley immediately comes to mind - way past his prime.

arturo gatti, hands down

co-sign............

Duran with Leonard a close second. However, if Joe Gans is not in the top ten, then the poll is invalid.

Duran with Leonard a close second. However, if Joe Gans is not in the top ten, then the poll is invalid.

You're right about Gans. I also have Duran as number one, there's no question in my mind.

Poet

I dont think many boxing fans have seen enough of most of those fighters to judge properly.
I know for a fact many posters here havent seen Duran as lightweight, and therfore dont rate him.

Anyway, its either Duran, Leonard or Gans, who ive never seen.

I've seen Duran at Lightweight. Which fight would you like to see? Buchannan? Bizzaro? Viuret? DeJesus I, II, and III? I have all of them.

Poet

Duran with Leonard a close second. However, if Joe Gans is not in the top ten, then the poll is invalid.Sorry, Pal... Leonard's not invited to this party. If he ever fought as a lightweight - which I doubt - he was never champion. Don't be mislead by "The Brawl in Montreal," Duran abdicated the lightweight throne to fight for Leonard's welterweight title and seized the 2nd. of 4 career championships.

Micky Ward.Who can compete?

Sorry, Pal... Leonard's not invited to this party. If he ever fought as a lightweight - which I doubt - he was never champion. Don't be mislead by "The Brawl in Montreal," Duran abdicated the lightweight throne to fight for Leonard's welterweight title and seized the 2nd. of 4 career championships.

They're talking about Benny Leonard not Ray Leonard LOL!

Poet

They're talking about Benny Leonard not Ray Leonard LOL!

PoetAnytime I see Duran/Leonard in the same sentence, I commit a Freudian slip and think "Ray." As the late Gilda Radner used to say on Saturday Night Live, "Never mind!" :footinmou

Anytime I see Duran/Leonaed in the same sentence, I commit a Freudian slip and think "Ray." As the late Gilda Radner used to say on Saturday Night Live, "Never mind!" :footinmou

Don't worry about it! Easy enough to get the wires crossed LOL!

Poet

I voted for Roberto Duran as the greatest lightweight champion ever, which hurt me to do this, because I really can't stand him at all. But on achievments and who he beat as a lightweight it has to be Duran. P4P though there are better fighters in that list, and who I would pick over duran had they ever met, but we were voting on greatest lightweight champion. Some good lightweights were missing from the list, no Joe Gans,Battling Nelson,Ike Williams,Beau Jack. There are a lot of good fighters at lightweight had some had to miss out, but Joe Gans really should have been in there. The fighters I would have picked to beat duran from the list would have been Henry Armstrong,J.C.Chavez and Pernell Whitaker, and some others to give him a good fight would be Benny Leonard,Joe Gans,Alexis Arguello but i'm still undecided on whether or not I think they could beat Duran.

I would counter that many people have not seen Abe Lincoln as president either, but his life is well documented by HISTORY. (Is this the "Boxing History" forum, or am I disoriented?) With regard to Duran as lightweight, there's this thing called "youtube." (See example above).

Youtube aint got **** on my boxing collection.
When discussing who was the best, its difficult to judge based on other peoples opinions. Or even the historical records.

Som people forget how techncally brilliant Tyson was at his best, and judge him based on his fights with Holyfield and Lewis.
Without any footage of him, his record isnt that impressive at all.

Boxing history or not, debating how great a fighter is past or present is only accurate if u know the fighter by observing him fight. We all have our own opinions of currant world champions that we have all seen fight. And many of those opinions are different.

Who was the best lightweight champion? Based on historical evidence and fact, its Duran.
There is no need for discussion.

I've seen Duran at Lightweight. Which fight would you like to see? Buchannan? Bizzaro? Viuret? DeJesus I, II, and III? I have all of them.

Poet

I have all those fights plus many more. I was thinking about posts ive read where people say how overated Duran was because he lost to Hagler, Hearns and Leonard. They dont have a ****ing clue!

Also the poll asks who was the best lightweight CHAMPION.
Which is a slightly different question from greatest lightweight.

Who had the most successful defenses? Duran
Who fought the best opposition??
etc.

Many of Gans, Leonards and Durans fights at lightweight were non-title fights.

I voted for Roberto Duran as the greatest lightweight champion ever, which hurt me to do this, because I really can't stand him at all...What'd he do, eat your lunch?! (LOL) Seriously, why can't you stand him?

"World champion Roy Jones Jr. proclaimed, after Mosley knocked out John John Molina, "He's the best lightweight in history, maybe after Roberto Duran."

"World champion Roy Jones Jr. proclaimed, after Mosley knocked out John John Molina, "He's the best lightweight in history, maybe after Roberto Duran."

A nods as good as a wink to a blind bat.

What'd he do, eat your lunch?! (LOL) Seriously, why can't you stand him?

Nah he refused to give me a title shot, never liked him since

Mosley didn't find a way to fight, much less beat, the best fellow lightweight of his time (Johnston) not to mention he NEVER would have fought at 35 in the era of same day weigh-ins

Nah he refused to give me a title shot, never liked him sinceOh yeah? I heard differently... I understand you're pissed because he (Durán) refused to let you carry his jock strap. :ugh:

Duran, i think he matches up really well with any other great lightweight and could of beat them all at one point or another

Other than the fact that they were both champions in the same division, what does Benny Leonard and Roberto Durán share in common?

Other than the fact that they were both champions in the same division, what does Benny Leonard and Roberto Durán share in common?

They both had Ray Arcel as trainer.

Poet

Other than the fact that they were both champions in the same division, what does Benny Leonard and Roberto Durán share in common?

Although Benny Leonard had Arcel as trainer when he made his ill-fated comeback.

Poet

Duran also defeated men larger than himself - Bizarro, Moore and Barkley immediately comes to mind - way past his prime.

I was not stating that Gans' ability to beat larger men placed him above Duran; simply that Gans is ignored without video footage, and accomplished feats ahead of his time that would be replicated later on by other greats at Lightweight.

Also, I voted for Duran, though Joe should be on the list.

BTW...Great avatar.

They both had Ray Arcel as trainer.

PoetCorrectomundo! But that's not remarkable in and of it self, as many fighters have shared the same trainer. The remarkable thing is Arcel's longevity in the fight game, as he trained Durán and Leonard (Benny, that is) sixtyn years apart! He also trained other boxing luminaries, such as Tony Zale, Ezzard Charles, Barney Ross and Larry Holmes (for the Cooney fight).

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdCeA-FpdiI

Henry Armstrong was the greatest to fight in the division but I'm pretty sure he was not a natural lightweight. After that I give it to Roberto Duran. That guy was sick with it. A really great fighter and fun to watch.

sweat pea and duran tied i say

Armstrong was quite natural top lightweight and its against lightweights that the bulk of his best wins came.

Armstrong was quite natural top lightweight and its against lightweights that the bulk of his best wins came.

** And jr welt. Armstrong was a monster at those weights and could hold his own against any in history.

Armstrong's most overrated weight is welter despite his amazing reign; it is unlikely that he could have done that in a deeper pool of natural welters the size og Rob or Leonard. Griffith-Armstong would have been a WOW

i have heard of henry armstrong i guess a lot of people have not

Duran #1, Whitaker #2, Armstrong #3.

Duran is the obvious answer.

...Also the poll asks who was the best lightweight CHAMPION.
Which is a slightly different question from greatest lightweight...Wrong! "Best" is your word. The thread title is "The Greatest Lightweight Champion Ever." The poll question is "Whose reign was the most dominant?"

Wrong! "Best" is your word. The thread title is "The Greatest Lightweight Champion Ever." The poll question is "Whose reign was the most dominant?"


Duran probably had the most dominant reign at 135, but I believe both Leonard and Gans fought the tougher comp. It is difficult to compare era's so far apart though. Neither of these guys get the p4p recognition they deserve by fans today, but both were just as impressive as Duran. Leonards level of competition overall was near equal to Durans. And I don't think Gans is very far behind either of them. What is surprising to me is that Gans doesn't have more losses. As a black man fighting at the turn of the century he must have been absolutely dominant to have only had 10 losses in 201 fights, as blacks were routinely jobbed against white fighters if the contest was close. Blacks were sometimes paid better to take a dive to a white fighter, which was the case with Gans vs Terry McGovern.
All in all, any order you have these 3 in at lightweight I can live with. In the lower weight classes these men fought in (135, 147) Duran had the best championship reign, Leonard fought the best competition, and Gans in all likelyhood was the most dominant. Just my opinion.

Duran probably had the most dominant reign at 135, but I believe both Leonard and Gans fought the tougher comp. It is difficult to compare era's so far apart though. Neither of these guys get the p4p recognition they deserve by fans today, but both were just as impressive as Duran. Leonards level of competition overall was near equal to Durans. And I don't think Gans is very far behind either of them. What is surprising to me is that Gans doesn't have more losses. As a black man fighting at the turn of the century he must have been absolutely dominant to have only had 10 losses in 201 fights, as blacks were routinely jobbed against white fighters if the contest was close. Blacks were sometimes paid better to take a dive to a white fighter, which was the case with Gans vs Terry McGovern.
All in all, any order you have these 3 in at lightweight I can live with. In the lower weight classes these men fought in (135, 147) Duran had the best championship reign, Leonard fought the best competition, and Gans in all likelyhood was the most dominant. Just my opinion.Easier read on preceeding post

Easier read on preceeding post

Im not following, you've lost me.

Easier read on preceeding post

Im not following, you've lost me."Easier read" means that your post (well worth repeating) is easier to read, due to the bigger bolder print in which I quoted you.

Got it? :)

"Easier read" means that your post (well worth repeating) is easier to read, due to the bigger bolder print in which I quoted you.

Got it? :)

Lol, got it!

The best lightweight as in skills and ability, i would have to say Pernell Whitaker by far. When it comes to being the greatest at lightweight by going by accomplishments, then i would have to say Duran. He was the greatest there.

Think the pole says it all, Duran by a mile.

some of the guys mentioned in the poll had short and inconsistent reigns at 135 ibs. duran made a name and career at lightweight alone. his victories over leonard and barkley were just icing on the cake

duran to me is top 3 P4P fighter

arturo gatti, hands down

did you just say arturo gatti you a wast you dont know boxing.

Think the pole says it all, Duran by a mile.

I think Armstrong held the lightweight, welterweight & middleweight championships simultaniously 135 lb. champ & 160 lb. champ at the same time.
Huge accomplishment never been done before of after.

Having said that I saw Duran fight Buchanan when he was only 20 and gave a good champ a savage & unexpected beating. Duran kept on giving those beatings for 7 years in the division. Therefore Duran is my pick by a mile also.

I think Armstrong held the lightweight, welterweight & middleweight championships simultaniously 135 lb. champ & 160 lb. champ at the same time.
Huge accomplishment never been done before of after.

Having said that I saw Duran fight Buchanan when he was only 20 and gave a good champ a savage & unexpected beating. Duran kept on giving those beatings for 7 years in the division. Therefore Duran is my pick by a mile also.

Armstrong first won the featherweight, then welterweigh(I think) and lightweight titles and held them simultaneously. He had also attempted to win a part of the middleweight championship from a fighter he had previously beaten, only to get a disputed draw. Can't think of the guys name right now without looking it up. No matter what, Armstrongs accomplishment is probably the greatest feat in boxing history. First because the was basicly one recognized title, and second because there were basicly only 8 recognized divisions. Because of boxing politics and multiple organizations today, it is something no other fighter will achieve again.

Armstrong first won the featherweight, then welterweigh(I think) and lightweight titles and held them simultaneously. He had also attempted to win a part of the middleweight championship from a fighter he had previously beaten, only to get a disputed draw. Can't think of the guys name right now without looking it up. No matter what, Armstrongs accomplishment is probably the greatest feat in boxing history. First because the was basicly one recognized title, and second because there were basicly only 8 recognized divisions. Because of boxing politics and multiple organizations today, it is something no other fighter will achieve again.


I knew he held 3 belts simultaneously but had the weight classes mixed up.
Armstrongs accomplishment is probably the greatest feat in boxing history.
Agree completely.

1A. Duran
1B. Armstrong

some of the guys mentioned in the poll had short and inconsistent reigns at 135 ibs. duran made a name and career at lightweight alone. his victories over leonard and barkley were just icing on the cake

duran to me is top 3 P4P fighterInteresting! You're the first (maybe only) person (I've observed) on this forum to rate Duran p4p higher than me. I'm curious, who are the other two and in what order do you place them?

Personally, I rate Duran 4th., after Robinson, Louis and Ali.

Interesting! You're the first (maybe only) person (I've observed) on this forum to rate Duran p4p higher than me. I'm curious, who are the other two and in what order do you place them?

Personally, I rate Duran 4th., after Robinson, Louis and Ali.


Just curious as to why you wouldn't rank Greb and Langford higher?

...Personally, I rate Duran 4th., after Robinson, Louis and Ali.

Just curious as to why you wouldn't rank Greb and Langford higher?Two reasons: First (and foremost), I'm not you. Secondly, in my view (to which I'm entitled) the four above are better. Any more questions?

Duran, but Benny Leonard is #1 for me. BTW, is there any actual footage of Harry Greb fights?

Two reasons: First (and foremost), I'm not you. Secondly, in my view (to which I'm entitled) the four above are better. Any more questions?

Yeah, I got a couple more questions. First, why the hostility? And second, what in your opinion makes Duran better than Greb and Langford? competition, ferocity, titles, longevity.....what?

Yeah, I got a couple more questions. First, why the hostility? And second, what in your opinion makes Duran better than Greb and Langford? competition, ferocity, titles, longevity.....what?I may be blunt, but I'm not hostile. I'm not in the mood for an essay right now, but feel free to tell me why those guys are better than Duran. Like I said, I'm blunt, and brevity lends itself to said bluntness.

I may be blunt, but I'm not hostile. I'm not in the mood for an essay right now, but feel free to tell me why those guys are better than Duran. Like I said, I'm blunt, and brevity lends itself to said bluntness.

Hey Panamaniac my man! Jab is a good guy and he actually sincerly wants to know your views as opposed to picking an argument like a lot of people do. He's trying to learn as much as he can about boxing from everyone he posts with.

Poet

Hey Panamaniac my man! Jab is a good guy and he actually sincerly wants to know your views as opposed to picking an argument like a lot of people do. He's trying to learn as much as he can about boxing from everyone he posts with.

PoetI have no doubt that Jab's a good man and that he's sincere in wanting to know my views; it's just that I'm "burnt-out" from extolling the virtues of Roberto Duran on this forum. Besides, given the fact that I'm a fan, I'm probably perceived as a biased fanatic blowhard. Maybe some other time, though.

I have no doubt that Jab's a good man and that he's sincere in wanting to know my views; it's just that I'm "burnt-out" from extolling the virtues of Roberto Duran on this forum. Besides, given the fact that I'm a fan, I'm probably perceived as a biased fanatic blowhard. Maybe some other time, though.

I don't know your views to consider you either a fanatic or a die hard. I can understand you being a fan of Duran, as I am too. I just don't rank him as high as you p4p.
Take your time though. If you want to talk Duran or another fighter but not on the forum, e-mail me, I'd love to hear what you have to say. That goes for any other ojective poster also. Poet, SlickSouthPaw, etc. JAB5239@aol.com just make sure you put the subject down as I may not recognize your e-mail address. Peace.

Oh and Poet.....thanks man.

Some of boxing's greatest fighters ruled the lightweight division at one time or another during their careers. The question is, who was the greatest lightweight champion of them all?
I'm awfully dissapointed that the poll doesn't include the guy in my avatar :grumpy:.

Where's Bat??? The conquerer of the great Joe Gans who's missing from the poll as well :crying:

But I think I'll go with either Benny Leonard or Duran of those mentioned.