Goddamn, I just saw a documentary about the Incans and their downfall - ****ing interesting ****.

For those who don't know, the Incans were an amazingly advanced civilization of the South Americas, they lived high in the Andes mountains, which afforded them an unbiased visage of the stars come twilight.

Devoid of all light, the heavenly bodies were plain to see, impossible for us of continual urban lights to fathom...the milky way itself was bright as a fire, and ironically it would play a role in the downfall of this advanced culture.

The Incans are an extraordinary story of how situational factors, can reach to the very hearts of a society and can even alter the fate of the people who are in the shadow of these factors.

Perhaps the Incans were too advanced for their own good, they were a culture which already had taxes, welfare, jobs, trade, etc when other cultures in the world were just awakening. They had firmly in place religion, laws etc, and astronomy was a large part of everything, since it was so brilliantly displayed every night.

Naturally, astronomy became a large part of Incan culture, religion was closely connected to it - the milky was was seen as a river running between the physical world, and the land of the gods.

Over the course of time, the Incans drew parallels between what happened in the stars, and what happened on earth - the shifting of the milky way coincided with the end of hundreds of years of peace, and marked the beginning of civil unrest, wars and general unpleasantries.

Over time, certain star pattern coincided with other events deemed important to the Incans, and hence as in human nature, the Incans believed that their fate was written in the stars - the will of the gods was right there for them to read at the pinnicle of the world. In time, the Incans believed that they had learned how to read it, and foolhardy or not believed that the could fortell fate through reading the alignments.

What they read chilled them to the bone - that when the twelth monarch/ruler came to power...he would be the last of the Incan rulers, and their way of life would be destroyed forever. This ruler was named Tupac Amaru (yeah, Tupac Amaru Shakur copied his name...), and he came into power in early 1570s.

In 1573, the spanish conquistadors and their catholic priest came from lands afar, and the Incan people trembled with fear, for the dreaded prophecy had come true - in reality, there were 170 Spanish soldiers who could have been easily crushed by the 40, 000 strong incan army on the many vulnerable paths the spanish had to ascend.

In a single day, the 170 Conquistadors killed 7000 Incans...not a single one of them raised their weapon in defence, in their mind they were already dead - it was after all the will of the gods as told by the stars.

The Spanish then went on to pillage the Incan city of all the gold on their magnificent buildings, they built their churches atop these buildings pronouncing their victory and the priest sought to "salvage" these people's souls by catholising them.

The spanish conquerers had their gold, the priests had their souls - the prophecy had come true.

- m

Aztec's is where it's at. **** the Inca.

did you read it? It's actually pretty interesting how they were ****ed over by the Spaniards even ith VASTLY superior numbers.

I know the history of the inca. I have studied them before.

Well then, how accurate is what I wrote? I only saw one show on them really, done some other reading before, but not much.

Also, have you ever had sex with an Incan?

great read -MM

Originally posted by Magic Man
Well then, how accurate is what I wrote? I only saw one show on them really, done some other reading before, but not much.

Also, have you ever had sex with an Incan?

Most inca have been crossing breeding with other people of south america and thier is really no such thing as one any more. So you could do somebofy that is like 1/48 inca. But I don't think I have.

One thing I really wish I knew more about is central and south american history. I have tried to read up on this stuff as much as possible but the story of the Mayans, Aztecs, Toltecs and Incas have been largely ignored by many. More documentaries like the one you watched are needed.

Just remember one thing.....don't get Spain mad. They are a sleeping giant.

yeah my people killed many, spain rules.

Originally posted by HockeyFighter
One thing I really wish I knew more about is central and south american history. I have tried to read up on this stuff as much as possible but the story of the Mayans, Aztecs, Toltecs and Incas have been largely ignored by many. More documentaries like the one you watched are needed.

Just remember one thing.....don't get Spain mad. They are a sleeping giant.

Everybody is always rome this and germania that. It's a shame.

the romans are easily the most documented conquerors and civilization of antiquated times, and its well deserved, they were the beacon of the civilized world until corruption destroyed them - the Egyptians are also up there.

I'd like to personally see more documentaries on the South American civilizations, the Mongolian conquerers and Khans.

Though, one reason why the South American civilisations aren't reported on so much, is because most of their history is not well documented, most of it was passed by stories from the older to younger generation, so it makes it harder.

I like all anicent civilization really. I've studied alot but I like the egyptians and south american ones too. Romain is too boring and all about governemnt really.

stupid pizzaro...

history is my favorite class, if you really think about it, everything you've ever learned is based on history.

I know some about the Incas, Mayans, ect.

I love how all ancient cultures have some sort of monolithic stone structures. And many of them are in pyramid form. Intersestng.

Also, mosst of these people had advanced concepts of math and astronomy. They say that from S. America to Egypt to Ankor Wat - that all the stone structures are aligned to diffrent constelations in the sky.

speecheless

Ankor Wat has always blown me away.

On another subject, weren't the majority of the Incas killed off by disease as is almost always the cast when native people encountered Europeans? I also recall something about the Incas being afraid of horses for some spiritual reason. I could be pulling it out of my ass though.

As for the Incas being afraid of the horses, 'I would say that its probobly true.

i know the spaniards brought disease to south and latin america and that lead to alot of their demise

Varicocha is the main deity of the Incas and I ll say as I saw photo in the book from Joseph Campbell "The Hero with a thousand masks" (wich I strongly recommend it for any of you)
Varicocha is crying, crying for the beings he have created and the suffering this will cause, so basically thats the main point of their religion compasion. This will shut the mouth of all those ****ing pseudo intellectualls who claim that cristianity or buddhism are the doctrines of truth.

How are you guys forgetting the greatest civlization of all time..................THE GREEKS! OPA

If you are sick of always hearing about Rome,Egypt, Greece and such as far as ancient civilisations are concerned you may want to check out stuff like the "Indus Valley" civ. in India that features famous sites such as Harappa and Mohenjo Daro. Or then again have a go at Sumer and Mesopotamia or Shang China or some of the nomadic steppe cultures of Eurasia....

Chirst MM you really aren't just about excrement and penises are you!?!:lol2:

And go to your uni library and check out periodicals like:
Archeology Magazine
http://www.archaeology.org/

History Today
http://www.historytoday.com/

And so on...

There's a lot of advanced cultures which were ahead of their times.

The Incas are one of the less documented, less talked about but by no means less impressive.

For instance, it is thought that the civilisation of Atlantis was based around a culture on the island of Crete (presumably living upon the island of Thera, not far from Crete). This culture had many developments, two big ones were a proper irrigation and sewerage system. The other is fresh running water. You won't hear much about this one unless you do a lot of research on ancient civilisations and read up about Atlantis, Crete, Thera, etc.

Going back to the Mongolians, the reason they conquered so much of the world was not superior numbers but the fact that their fighting tactics were organised, formations tight and they knew how to fight. Rather than shout commands over the battlefield like the dumbarse Europeans they learned to signal each other through the use of flags. The Mongals rode a special type of war pony which was bred for speed and maneuverability. All Mongols were trained to fire their bows whilst mounted on horseback, and could even shoot behind them whilst going at full gallop.

Meanwhile the Europeans are lining up like lemmings to get shot at and slaughtered, especting the enemy to charge at them. Instead they avoided direct conflict until they nailed half the enemy and the CO's (who could be seen shouting orders) and avoided charging and when they did, they kept formation whilst the Europeans either just went crazy and attacked like mad, or fled. This is why for the most part, not only did the Mongols kick ass, despite behind being outnumbered for a large portion of the time but they left **** all survivors, if any.

- The Jake

Originally posted by The Jake
For instance, it is thought that the civilisation of Atlantis was based around a culture on the island of Crete (presumably living upon the island of Thera, not far from Crete). This culture had many developments, two big ones were a proper irrigation and sewerage system. The other is fresh running water. You won't hear much about this one unless you do a lot of research on ancient civilisations and read up about Atlantis, Crete, Thera, etc.


I was reading about Atlantis the other day, and how it was first mentioned in a dialogue between Socrates and Cretias, and supposedly recorded by Plato - or some say it was a complete creation of the mind by Plato to bring some point across (something about greed I think - that is after all how the demise of Atlantis supposedly came about, after the gods deemed the people of atlantis too greedy and invirtuous).

Some believe that Atlantis is in modern day Cuba, but according to geographical descriptions and size garnered from the cretias dialogue, that it is infact not.

Still, if Atlantis ever did exist, it's like the ice is now destroying whatever existed of it, so it will forever remain a myth.

Magic I think your original post was very correct and in accordance w/ a lot of wha i studied and read. Exacept, there's non "n" t the end of the word. The Spanish are often downpalyed though. People write them of as whatever they can. Spain had soem bad motehr****ers, Pizarro was a pimp in the sense that he was a great general (he was really religious otherwise and supposedly real chaste). W/ like less than 500 guys against some million people. Sure disease killed a lot, but in actual confrontations Spanish advancements and experience was over-whelming. The cool thing about the Spanish as opposed to so many other Super owers is that htey had a sense of right and wrong. They set up a lot of good institutions. A lot of the focus on he neative coems from the English, who were real dicks in their handling of Empirialism. Spaniards hardly ever used hirelings either, just Irish, but they viwed them as Spanish who'd crossed the sea and unfairly oppressed. Remember Spain was in the hands of A-rabs for 800 years. he Reconquista was justa reaction and very cool. Spain was probably the 3rd best Empire ever, defiantely my favorite. the 2nd best would be France. It was Gallo-Romans from modern day france and Vandals from Spain who beat Atilla at Chalois and if they wanted to, could have made huns an extinct people. Polotics lead Aetulia, the Gaulish general to hault his advacements though. The under German leadership the French score another big win in 733(?), they rout the Muslims at Tours. They eventually rack up some big wins, but liek everyone else get owned by England. Firstthey're made a kingdom, then they're territories. Even after the final English expulsions the French would be at English mercy. So of course, eh pinnacle of Imperialists are the English. Saxon might is almsot unbeleivable, if you want to talk about underexplored and discussed the ENglish are quite remarkable. Issac Newton is almost unanimously cited as the second most influential man ever, only Christ exceeds him.

But back to the original post. Icas are fascianting they were regarded as scholars by people in Rome, many ere snet to see the Pope. Jesuits studied their customs and atronomy and that's where we get a lot of today's info. The truth is that soo much goes in to pointless lessons in history that the real fascinating stuff is overlooked and people lose interest in it. Honestly, how can you lose interest in other people? You cna't culture and humans naturally incite interest in other humans. It is our nature, but poor teaching kills this. History is incredibly appliable to everyday lfe. You should make more of these threads MM.

BTW, Rome,was so-so. They were bright but stole much from the Greeks, and both were too much into sodomy for my taste. Besides they were only good in their pool. When this big fish was plopped ino the ocean w/ Sharks they were only so good.Rome for one used an abundance of hirelings to impose their power. Spain only really used Irish, but considered Irish brethern and gave them positions as chances for asylum. France again did best by themselves, England always had an english majority in eh ranks. Ceasar was incredibly fortuante in his vicotry over the Celts and it was the fact that Rome could make bribes that this important territory was kept. Persia was feasibly subduable, but the Huns and Germns were too much. Eventually the Germans would turn the tide on the huns and beat them and it would become the Germanic era. If you look, ever since 400 or so, the world hasbecome more and ore germanic. In fact it's a Germanic language that is most spoken. Germanic institutuions have enjoyed the most power. Mongols and Ottomans had great Empire's but to explain why they're subordinate to the Western Europeans is fo anotehr post, but anyone who's interested should explore their history.

Originally posted by Magic Man
I was reading about Atlantis the other day, and how it was first mentioned in a dialogue between Socrates and Cretias, and supposedly recorded by Plato - or some say it was a complete creation of the mind by Plato to bring some point across (something about greed I think - that is after all how the demise of Atlantis supposedly came about, after the gods deemed the people of atlantis too greedy and invirtuous).

Some believe that Atlantis is in modern day Cuba, but according to geographical descriptions and size garnered from the cretias dialogue, that it is infact not.

Still, if Atlantis ever did exist, it's like the ice is now destroying whatever existed of it, so it will forever remain a myth.

Plato wrote about it in two texts, Criteas and Timeas IIRC.

In Plato's account, most scholars tend to believe it is 'fictional' however it was adapted from real civilisations (or so the story goes). The island of Thera fit the timeline very closely because it was the only island in the Mediterranean that was said to have been destroyed by a volcanic explosion in approximately 1500BC (again, IIRC, it's been a long time).

The civilization that was said to populate Thera was an offshoot of those on Crete. So a lot of the foremost Atlantis scholars look to the Mediterranean civilisations for clues to the fate of Atlantis.

The problem however was the Plato was notoriously off on a lot of his dates so scholars tend to remain quite skeptical when referring to Plato's works as a source of information so they take it with a grain of salt.

I can't say I heard of the Cuba theory. Most of the stuff I've ever read strongly suggests that if Atlantis was 'real', it would be in the Mediterranean. This makes sense since the Mediterranean is a lot closer to the cradle of civilisation than Cuba.

On a side note, do you know where the cradle of civilisation is? Where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers meet which runs into.... yes you guessed it, modern day Iraq.

- The Jake

Thanks Mr. Jake for that...one thing though, I never read alot of the Timeas dialogue, but from what I saw, most of it was about politics of the day and more setting the scene than any real description about Atlantis.

As for the cradle of civilisation, what sources confirmed that it was in fact the cradle of society? Or is it just an unbased theory mate?

- m

PS. rock dog, thanks for that post mate, very interesting - I didn't realise that about the Spanish, I was always of the impression they were all heartless mofos :D . Never crossed my mind it was biased reporting - its true though, a lot of the English conquerers were black hearted mo****ers.

And I also agree about the history thing, a lot of what is taught nowadays is a boring crock of ****, but I also think a lot of it is due to the stigma attached to "history lessons" :D Also, a lot of countries tend to focus ONLY on their own culture's histories.

Lets not forget the Norse people.

We ruled.

SPAIN PWNS. WE KILLED EVERYONE!

Originally posted by Magic Man
Thanks Mr. Jake for that...one thing though, I never read alot of the Timeas dialogue, but from what I saw, most of it was about politics of the day and more setting the scene than any real description about Atlantis.

As for the cradle of civilisation, what sources confirmed that it was in fact the cradle of society? Or is it just an unbased theory mate?

- m


It's true that most of Plato's references were rather indirect by my understanding, which is yet another reason why scholars don't rely on his stuff entirely.

As for the cradle of civilisation, IIRC again, that archaeologists and scholars tracked the migration patterns of all the tribes and different cultures around the world and that just about all of them originated from that area (I dunno how South African and Aboriginal cultures fit into that, I thought they were older than all of the others IMHO). Also examining and carbon dating early artifacts and corpses recovered in digs around that region as well appear to be a lot older than anything else discovered elsewhere.

I will have to try and do some searching on the web and post it here. Don't let this thread die.

- The Jake

PS: Xaidaix, thanks for the av. :)

Here's some good links I found on Atlantis

I tried to find ones with a listed bibliography that makes it easier to authenticate:

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Atlantis.html

http://www.atlantisquest.com/Myth.html

http://www.imh.ru/atlan4_e.htm

The last one looks the most interesting although admittedly I haven't had time to read his theory....

- The Jake

Originally posted by xaidaix
SPAIN PWNS. WE KILLED EVERYONE!

I'm sorry scotland rules. We let other countries take over and then fight for our freedom.

To learn more about the Inca civilization try to read something edited by the Fondo de Cultura Económica if possible translated to english.

ttt for Dave Hoyak! :)

can you feel the sadness?

did someone die volgar? :(

yes. Me inside.

I am like robo, I make little inside vulgar come back to life.

lol , don't waste your time it will be dead again in 5 min.

GAY.

dead

stop the whoring.

I can't, ITS MAGIC TIME!

OH, WAIT A MINUTE! I'M PARTY BOY!

you are

I DON'T NEED MY FORTUNE TO BE READ! I KNOW MY FUTURE!

I'M PARTY BOY!