1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Holmes
4 Lewis
5 Johnson
6 Dempsey
7 Frazier
8 Tyson
9 Marciano
10 Holyfield
11 Foreman
12 Tunney
13 Liston
14 Charles
15 Patterson

OK, that's 15 but there were so many good fighters. My top 4 are pretty much set in stone but 5 to 13 were very tough to rank. Hard to leave such good fighters as Tunney, Foreman and Liston out of the top 10. Big Daddy, Wlad (gasp), Jim Jefferies & Old Jersey Joe were swinging around the top top 15 too.

Ali tops, his amalgam of sustained speed, smarts, durability, courage & more than adequate power was too much to overlook. Louis had really good power, skills, defence, durability and smarts. No one could build the sort of careers that these two guys did over nearly two decades at the top without being great at the game. Larry Holmes is, in my opinion the greatest heavyweight boxer I've ever seen. On his day, at his best, he could beat any of the other great champions by utilizing all of his many skills. Lennox is pretty much in the same category as Larry in my opinion, a large man with the best right hand I've seen, good speed, ring craft and excellent combinations. He could also beat any of the other fighters more often than not on any given day.

In fact, most of these guys could score wins against any of the others, though some would win decidedly more due to physical attributes more than anything else. Some of the smaller guys would suffer against the giants of the division but it wouldn't be a given....

I gotta say that if Vitali had not taken himself out of the game during what would have been his prime years, he would likely have made this top 15. He seemed to be the heir apparent to Lewis & would have made a pretty decent champion imo....

1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Holmes
4 Lewis
5 Johnson
6 Dempsey
7 Frazier
8 Tyson
9 Marciano
10 Holyfield
11 Foreman
12 Tunney
13 Liston
14 Charles
15 Patterson


OK, that's 15 but there were so many good fighters. My top 4 are pretty much set in stone but 5 to 13 were very tough to rank. Hard to leave such good fighters as Tunney, Foreman and Liston out of the top 10. Big Daddy, Wlad (gasp), Jim Jefferies & Old Jersey Joe were swinging around the top top 15 too.

Ali tops, his amalgam of sustained speed, smarts, durability, courage & more than adequate power was too much to overlook. Louis had really good power, skills, defence, durability and smarts. No one could build the sort of careers that these two guys did over nearly two decades at the top without being great at the game. Larry Holmes is, in my opinion the greatest heavyweight boxer I've ever seen. On his day, at his best, he could beat any of the other great champions by utilizing all of his many skills. Lennox is pretty much in the same category as Larry in my opinion, a large man with the best right hand I've seen, good speed, ring craft and excellent combinations. He could also beat any of the other fighters more often than not on any given day.

In fact, most of these guys could score wins against any of the others, though some would win decidedly more due to physical attributes more than anything else. Some of the smaller guys would suffer against the giants of the division but it wouldn't be a given....

I gotta say that if Vitali had not taken himself out of the game during what would have been his prime years, he would likely have made this top 15. He seemed to be the heir apparent to Lewis & would have made a pretty decent champion imo....

Pretty good list Dazz, thanks for posing it. I think you have Dempsey and Tunney to high, and Foreman and Liston to low. Could you explain why they're at where they're at?

:- THE INDISPUTABLE H.W. All Time TOP 10 1. MARVIN HART. 2. ROCKY MARCIANO. 3. JOE LOUIS. 4. MUHAMMAD ALI. 5. JACK DEMPSEY. 6. JOHN L. SULLIVAN. 7. JACK JOHNSON. 8. GENE TUNNEY. 9. JEM MACE. 10. PETER JACKSON. , , :crazy::wtf::alcoholic:fest30: , , "You talkin' to me ???

:- THE INDISPUTABLE H.W. All Time TOP 10 1. MARVIN HART. 2. ROCKY MARCIANO. 3. JOE LOUIS. 4. MUHAMMAD ALI. 5. JACK DEMPSEY. 6. JOHN L. SULLIVAN. 7. JACK JOHNSON. 8. GENE TUNNEY. 9. JEM MACE. 10. PETER JACKSON. , , :crazy::wtf::alcoholic:fest30: , , "You talkin' to me ???
So,... is nobody going to dispute the above claim about MARVIN HART being the greatest HW,................. ???????????,............. HART ?

So,... is nobody going to dispute the above claim about MARVIN HART being the greatest HW,................. ???????????,............. HART ?
Marvin Hart is the worst undisputed champion in history, I hope you're kidding.

Marvin Hart is the worst undisputed champion in history, I hope you're kidding.
Yes I was certainly kidding,... I was 'avin a laugh,............................................ ............ ,.......... In Fact I was getting worried that NO-ONE had made a poke at me,..... in fact I know little about him, no one does !!!!!!,.... if anyone does, I'd be interested to hear it....... .... The bit that I know tempts me to put him in the "Worst HW Champions ever and a bit of a fake like the other two that I don't rate any higher than him, and they are centuries apart, first John Ruiz, we know him,.... Gentleman John Jackson who had only THREE career FIGHTS ??????,.. and of course Marvin Hart, the man who would have been a 100 to 1 chance of beating Willard and probably would have been THRASHED by GANS.............. I'm, not surprised, Barnburner, that you were the first to notice,,,,...... you knew I was kiddin'. Dinch ya !!

Yes I was certainly kidding,... I was 'avin a laugh,............................................ ............ ,.......... In Fact I was getting worried that NO-ONE had made a poke at me,..... in fact I know little about him, no one does !!!!!!,.... if anyone does, I'd be interested to hear it....... .... The bit that I know tempts me to put him in the "Worst HW Champions ever and a bit of a fake like the other two that I don't rate any higher than him, and they are centuries apart, first John Ruiz, we know him,.... Gentleman John Jackson who had only THREE career FIGHTS ??????,.. and of course Marvin Hart, the man who would have been a 100 to 1 chance of beating Willard and probably would have been THRASHED by GANS.............. I'm, not surprised, Barnburner, that you were the first to notice,,,,...... you knew I was kiddin'. Dinch ya !!

I think most of us were pretty sure you were kidding hence no shots taken :chuckle9: We'd only take shots at you if we thought you really meant it :cool9:

Poet

I think most of us were pretty sure you were kidding hence no shots taken :chuckle9: We'd only take shots at you if we thought you really meant it :cool9:

Poet
yeah,.. I've been laughing for days about it.... I like to make a bogus post now and then, it's not seemly for an Australian "Bloke" to be seen with a stiff upper lip, and we got good reasons too,..... ever seen "Breaker Morant". one of the great movies..... anyway, the Aussies told the poms at their firing squad to "shoot straight ya bastards",... and that's just one reason.

yeah,.. I've been laughing for days about it.... I like to make a bogus post now and then, it's not seemly for an Australian "Bloke" to be seen with a stiff upper lip, and we got good reasons too,..... ever seen "Breaker Morant". one of the great movies..... anyway, the Aussies told the poms at their firing squad to "shoot straight ya bastards",... and that's just one reason.

Yep, seen it.....based on a true story from the Boer War. If I remember right, the book they based the movie on was "Scapegoats Of The Empire". Pommies loved sh1tting on Aussies for some bizzare reason.

Poet

Yep, seen it.....based on a true story from the Boer War. If I remember right, the book they based the movie on was "Scapegoats Of The Empire". Pommies loved sh1tting on Aussies for some bizzare reason.

Poet
The pommies didn't like the Aussie free spirits, seems they took terms like, "toffy bastard", "Bludger", "ya stewpid Drongo;s", "Get ****ed yer ****'s and other lovely terms of endearment, after all we wanted to give our cousins a hand, but we had to open our mouths and mention the words that terrified all little English boys in those days, for every little English boy wanted to play cricket for England./////// and the words, "the Demon Bowler" Fred Spofforth, the nightmare of all England, a "Colonial" who showed 'Em up at their own invention (Australia has since perfected the game,.... are you there G.J.C. ??),............... it is all fact,..... No one from outside Australia or England (and INDIA) can understand Aussies or Pom culture without understanding the impact of Cricket,..... it's in the D.N.A.

Yes I was certainly kidding,... I was 'avin a laugh,............................................ ............ ,.......... In Fact I was getting worried that NO-ONE had made a poke at me,..... in fact I know little about him, no one does !!!!!!,.... if anyone does, I'd be interested to hear it....... .... The bit that I know tempts me to put him in the "Worst HW Champions ever and a bit of a fake like the other two that I don't rate any higher than him, and they are centuries apart, first John Ruiz, we know him,.... Gentleman John Jackson who had only THREE career FIGHTS ??????,.. and of course Marvin Hart, the man who would have been a 100 to 1 chance of beating Willard and probably would have been THRASHED by GANS.............. I'm, not surprised, Barnburner, that you were the first to notice,,,,...... you knew I was kiddin'. Dinch ya !!
Yeah I knew you were joking :lol1:

Basically when Jeffries retired he chose Jack Root and Marvin Hart to fight each other for the Heavyweight title as they were the best claimants (that weren't black). He then lost the title a few easy fights later to Tommy Burns which Johnson then took.

Although, he did beat Johnson in a 20 round decision shortly before the title fight, I'm not sure the legitimacy of this decision though. It was never avenged,

yeah,.. I've been laughing for days about it.... I like to make a bogus post now and then, it's not seemly for an Australian "Bloke" to be seen with a stiff upper lip, and we got good reasons too,..... ever seen "Breaker Morant". one of the great movies..... anyway, the Aussies told the poms at their firing squad to "shoot straight ya bastards",... and that's just one reason.
Now we're done with that what's your serious list mines is.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Jack Johnson
10. Harry Wills

Now we're done with that what's your serious list mines is.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Jack Johnson
10. Harry Wills
This is tough Barney !!!,,. I think of different criteria lists,.... mainly I try to come up with 3 lists (after I make up a shortlist of about triple as many as I need).:---- 1. - Is a Greatness List with Achievements,.. Are they the Best of their era and are they historically rated as a Legend and their pure statistics, ... and Two Head to head matchups Lists (i.e. who would Ph*** up the other guy in a real fight),... the two H to H lists are based on their sizes, first a Small Heavyweights list,.. any on from Fitzsimmons to Joe Louis or Marciano size,... and the BIG or Super HW List with say Ali to Klitschko and above....The Greatness List would tend to equally represent most eras equally and creates a nicely balanced looking List,..... BUT does that list mean anything in a real world contest between Jack Dempsey and Vitali and the like ???... Personally I don't think we can ever know,.. unless we gain admittance into Valhalla !!I will take a day or two maybe to come up with two different lists,............ one other thing, somedays I think Ali would beat Marciano and some days I go the other way,.... same with say Ali and Louis....... but I do have a few differences with your list, and will go through some again soon. Having said that I love that list because it's not gonna be everyone's cup 'O Tea and it's in yer face, so if'n they don't like it, Quote Vinnie Barbarino,... up yer nose with a ....etc.

Now we're done with that what's your serious list mines is.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Jack Johnson
10. Harry Wills
One other thing Barney, With the head to head lists, my first rule is if they both actually met, I'll usually always rate the winner of that fight or series, as long as both were within reason, reasonably matched fairly at the Time. Obviously in cases where an older fighter who was virtually gone at time of fight, or when a very young and inexperienced fighter loses to on in his Prime or near-abouts,.......................Once I have that out of the way, I'll go through some different criteria and try rating different fighters strengths and percieved weaknesses,....................................... ..... As you can see, I don't take any of this too lightly..... regards.

One other thing Barney, With the head to head lists, my first rule is if they both actually met, I'll usually always rate the winner of that fight or series, as long as both were within reason, reasonably matched fairly at the Time. Obviously in cases where an older fighter who was virtually gone at time of fight, or when a very young and inexperienced fighter loses to on in his Prime or near-abouts,.......................Once I have that out of the way, I'll go through some different criteria and try rating different fighters strengths and percieved weaknesses,....................................... ..... As you can see, I don't take any of this too lightly..... regards.
Take Lennox for instance, I think that p4p Evander was every bit as good, but Lewis's height and weight advantage was great, I'm not saying better, .... but just as good, so there's no reason to give no chance amongst the lighter half of the HW Division....................Incidentally Barney which weight would you divide the little HW's from the SHW's,...... 210 ? maybe ?..... I think having Two head to head HW divisions would give a lot more scope, depth and variation to the rest of this thread, I reckon It'd be cool.////

I would give Super-Heavy 230+ Prime weight.

As for ranking I go resume and accomplishments and use H2H or result of matches as a tie breaker.

I would give Super-Heavy 230+ Prime weight.

As for ranking I go resume and accomplishments and use H2H or result of matches as a tie breaker.
O.K. then two lists with the SmallHW's of anyone from Tommy Burns and Langford up to 230 as the cut off limit ( some can still be able to Try for the BigHW's,.......... TWO-HUNDRED and Thirty, I'll get to work on two short lists and I'll get serious and come up with the H2H lists,...... and it'll be up to you to MAKE Me change my rankings,.... if you can logically do that we may come up with GREAT Lists,.........................--Because I want to discuss the Marciano's and Langfords as well as the Foremans and Wlad/Lewis/Vitali's/Ali's and co................................................ . .. There is a 4th list possibility,..... the P4P HW ATG's.........,Later 4 that one.

O.K. then two lists with the SmallHW's of anyone from Tommy Burns and Langford up to 230 as the cut off limit ( some can still be able to Try for the BigHW's,.......... TWO-HUNDRED and Thirty, I'll get to work on two short lists and I'll get serious and come up with the H2H lists,...... and it'll be up to you to MAKE Me change my rankings,.... if you can logically do that we may come up with GREAT Lists,.........................--Because I want to discuss the Marciano's and Langfords as well as the Foremans and Wlad/Lewis/Vitali's/Ali's and co................................................ . .. There is a 4th list possibility,..... the P4P HW ATG's.........,Later 4 that one.
Small HW's first,....... a top 10 shortlist, -- Marciano, Louis, Johnson, Jeffries, Fitzsimmons, Dempsey, Frazier, Holyfield, A young Clay, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, a young Tyson, Corbett, Tunney, P. Jackson, John L. Sullivan, Joe Choynski, Harry Wills, Sam LangFord, Joe Jeannette,.. are there any more to consider before I get down to the task of rating them all as if in their prime,.... I miss any obvious one's Barney ?????

Small HW's first,....... a top 10 shortlist, -- Marciano, Louis, Johnson, Jeffries, Fitzsimmons, Dempsey, Frazier, Holyfield, A young Clay, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, a young Tyson, Corbett, Tunney, P. Jackson, John L. Sullivan, Joe Choynski, Harry Wills, Sam LangFord, Joe Jeannette,.. are there any more to consider before I get down to the task of rating them all as if in their prime,.... I miss any obvious one's Barney ?????
Tommy Burns, if you really want to. Archie Moore. Floyd Patterson, Max Schmeling. Jack Dempsey.

Tommy Burns, if you really want to. Archie Moore. Floyd Patterson, Max Schmeling. Jack Dempsey.
Also when doing this we need to go by prime weight as Prime Holmes was about 220 but, he went all the way up to around 240.

Or we can do 3 categories
<200
200><230
230>

Also when doing this we need to go by prime weight as Prime Holmes was about 220 but, he went all the way up to around 240.

Or we can do 3 categories
<200
200><230
230>
Yeah, that would be good that way, it's a lot to take in but that way we get all the main guys, I may need your help about their prime weights. I also think that the matchups are far more realistic with the three weight categories. I did forget Schmeling and Patterson and left out Aechie Moore as I consider him wasted at HW but having a UP TO 200 will bring him into the mix by widening the Cruiserweights, wow what a division, Langford, Burns, Fitz and dare I say lt, Daaarrr-SEA even. I ALSO Make you welcome into the MAFIA,... just allow me to be "The Don",... (no not Bradman).

Yeah, that would be good that way, it's a lot to take in but that way we get all the main guys, I may need your help about their prime weights. I also think that the matchups are far more realistic with the three weight categories. I did forget Schmeling and Patterson and left out Aechie Moore as I consider him wasted at HW but having a UP TO 200 will bring him into the mix by widening the Cruiserweights, wow what a division, Langford, Burns, Fitz and dare I say lt, Daaarrr-SEA even. I ALSO Make you welcome into the MAFIA,... just allow me to be "The Don",... (no not Bradman).

I'm happy to help in anyway possible.

So a set of ground rules.

- The fighters must have fought at Heavyweight before.
- We're going by prime weights and will put them into 3 categories.
- There must be footage of the fighters we are evaluating.

How are we going to do this list? Accomplishments and resume or H2H ability?

I'm happy to help in anyway possible.

So a set of ground rules.

- The fighters must have fought at Heavyweight before.
- We're going by prime weights and will put them into 3 categories.
- There must be footage of the fighters we are evaluating.

How are we going to do this list? Accomplishments and resume or H2H ability?
Head To Head first, NO fighters without footage,....... We can do a greatness list based on accomplishments, and Legacy later, that's a much easier thing to do,...... Can you help with a list of the Under 200 fighters fiirst, I know know of the obvious ones........ I think it would help if we go through strengths and weaknessess,...... Maybe a 1 to 5 points on things like Chin and power,........An Under 200 lb class will be very interesting,... I'm getting into this,.......... all on film, much less of a headache.

Under 200

Dempsey
Charles
Walcott
Moore
Patterson
Tunney
Marciano
Langford
Fitzsimmons
Darcy
Jack Sharkey
Schmeling
Tommy Burns

Over 200 Less than 230.

Joe Louis (Although he is borderline)
Muhammad Ali
Max Baer
Joe Frazier
Sonny Liston
Ken Norton
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Harry Wills
Prime Foreman
Jim Jeffries
Holyfield

Over 230
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko
Jess Williard
Riddick Bowe
Primo Carnea
Past Prime Foreman
Lennox Lewis

Under 200
PUNCH KO Power,.... Up to 5 Stars
Dempsey,......... 5 star
Charles,........... 3 1/2 stars
Walcott............4 1/2 stars
Moore.............. 4 1/2 stars
Patterson..........3 1/2 stars
Tunney.............3 stars
Marciano...........5 stars
Langford...........4 1/2 stars
Fitzsimmons.......4 stars
Darcy...............4 stars
Jack Sharkey..... 5 1/2 stars
Schmeling,.........4 1/2 stars
Tommy Burns..... 5 stars
Jim Corbett ?...3 stars..... Evander Holyfield ?.... 4 stars
Over 200 Less than 230.

Joe Louis (Although he is borderline)
Muhammad Ali
Max Baer
Joe Frazier
Sonny Liston
Ken Norton
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Harry Wills
Prime Foreman
Jim Jeffries
Holyfield

Over 230
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko
Jess Williard
Riddick Bowe
Primo Carnea
Past Prime Foreman
Lennox Lewis I think Holyfield is at his best at the lighter weight... Do you agree ??...... Corbett's film is hard to judge, but you get an idea to his style.............. Should we count SAM McVey,........ I'm sure there may be more candidates........ Let Me Know what you think of my KO Power ratings ????..... I mean ONE PUNCH KO ability here....... I await your responce....... I will rate their CHINS Next.

Under 200

Dempsey
Charles
Walcott
Moore
Patterson
Tunney
Marciano
Langford
Fitzsimmons
Darcy
Jack Sharkey
Schmeling
Tommy Burns

Over 200 Less than 230.

Joe Louis (Although he is borderline)
Muhammad Ali
Max Baer
Joe Frazier
Sonny Liston
Ken Norton
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Harry Wills
Prime Foreman
Jim Jeffries
Holyfield

Over 230
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko
Jess Williard
Riddick Bowe
Primo Carnea
Past Prime Foreman
Lennox Lewis

Are these names in order of your rankings or just who you would have at these particular splits?

I Think an important, factor is The fighters reach, and height, someone like Darcy who's short, had an enormous reach for someone 5ft 7in..... it was about 6ft 2in...... maybe the reason for his much vaunted power,.... I ranked his power lower at this weight,... I'd give him a 5 star rating at MW............. I think we need these stats ASAP....... especially comparing fighters with a big height difference........ Incidentally... does Billy Conn qualify ? ..he did fight HW's,... and a couple other LHW's.... were regular visitors to the HW's.

Are these names in order of your rankings or just who you would have at these particular splits?
No Jab, me and Barn' are just trying to come up with shortlists first,..... so we can first discuss the different attributes and factors that can help us see how they'd go,.. Head to Head........... We want to be thorough,...... and we are goin to make 3 different lists based on these weight categories................ Join in with us if you want,.... We're doing just the Small HW's first........... Have we missed any candidates ?????

Up To 200lbs.........TALE Of The TAPE..Reach & Height,.. (Height in Brackets)Jim CORBETT...(185 cm)---185Bob Fitzsimmons....(182)--182Tommy Burns....(170)---185.... WOW !!Gene Tunney....(183)---196.. also impressive !!Jack Dempsey....(185)----196...YepEzzard CHARLES....(183)----185...Jersey Joe WALCOTT...(183)---188.Floyd Patterson...(183)----180.Evander HOLYFIELD...(189)----198..Billy CONN....(187)----184.Les DARCY....5ft 7in.......74 inches ???????? Can anybody convert inches and feet to Centimeters ??????......so I can compare to the others:boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing:

Up To 200lbs.........TALE Of The TAPE..Reach & Height,.. (Height in Brackets)Jim CORBETT...(185 cm)---185Bob Fitzsimmons....(182)--182Tommy Burns....(170)---185.... WOW !!Gene Tunney....(183)---196.. also impressive !!Jack Dempsey....(185)----196...YepEzzard CHARLES....(183)----185...Jersey Joe WALCOTT...(183)---188.Floyd Patterson...(183)----180.Evander HOLYFIELD...(189)----198..Billy CONN....(187)----184.Les DARCY....5ft 7in.......74 inches ???????? Can anybody convert inches and feet to Centimeters ??????......so I can compare to the others:boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing:
Les DARCY........5.7'....6.2' = 173 cm...& 189 cm's REACH....... Now that's some reach !!!!!........ His reach is superior to Corbett's....Fitzy....Burns.....Ezzard C.,.....Walcott's...Patterson.... Marciano (Darcy has 19 cm on him).......CONN.... and JOE FRAZIER.......... ROCKY MARCIANO....180 tall & 170 in reach........ that gives Rocky a big disadvantage in reach to all the others,..... His height is superior to some (the obvious ones)/

Are these names in order of your rankings or just who you would have at these particular splits?
Just who I have, if that was my list I would hope you guys would ask me to leave the forum.

Just who I have, if that was my list I would hope you guys would ask me to leave the forum.

Lol, I was going to say that that really didn't sound like you, but I had to check! :lol1:

Up To 200lbs--Hand speed rankingsDEMPSEY ---7 and a half ---------------CHARLES---8 and a half--------------Walcott----8--------------MOORE----8------------Patterson----9---------------TUNNEY----9-------------MARCIANO----5-----------------LANGFORD----7------------Fitzsimmons----7-------------DARCY----8----------------SHARKEY----5 and a half------------SCHMELING----6--------------BURNS----7----------------CORBETT----7 and a half-----------HOLYFIELD (if he qualifies)-----------------CONN----9 and a half--------------------How did I go Barnburner ??:angel::angel::angel:

when I talk about such a list, I talk about greatness.

it seems Jack Johnson is getting his due respect, at his age he wasnt.
nowadays Mike Tyson gets lotta critic as well as Rocky. is that fair?

well, heres my:

1. Ali
2.Louis
3.Johnson
4.Dempsey
5.Jeffries
6.Rocky
7.Liston
8.Foreman
9.Smokin Joe
10.Tyson
Tunney
Holmes
Holyfield
walcott
Petterson
Ezzard
Schmeling
Lennox

when I talk about such a list, I talk about greatness.

it seems Jack Johnson is getting his due respect, at his age he wasnt.
nowadays Mike Tyson gets lotta critic as well as Rocky. is that fair?

well, heres my:

1. Ali
2.Louis
3.Johnson
4.Dempsey
5.Jeffries
6.Rocky
7.Liston
8.Foreman
9.Smokin Joe
10.Tyson
Tunney
Holmes
Holyfield
walcott
Petterson
Ezzard
Schmeling
Lennox

Walcott over Charles? whaaat?

Walcott over Charles? whaaat?

what what?

havent rank them, but charles and joes body of work at HW is noteable also
could add moore.

jes problem?

How is Jack Johnson not better then Joe Louis? Im a big Louis fan but i just watched a documentary on johnson and i honestly think he woulda destroyed Louis. Johnson should also be ahead of Dempsey. He was 37 when he lost to Jess Willard, before that it sounds like he was close to untouchable, but the interpretations of some of the fights back then seem very unclear...most likely because of the racism that existed in the world back then.

It seems like most of yall put louis ahead of johnson because he fought some fighters that were probably better then the competition johnson had, and they were alot more well known. But I think a prime Jack Johnson woulda beat Louis and anybody he ever fought

How is Jack Johnson not better then Joe Louis? Im a big Louis fan but i just watched a documentary on johnson and i honestly think he woulda destroyed Louis. Johnson should also be ahead of Dempsey. He was 37 when he lost to Jess Willard, before that it sounds like he was close to untouchable, but the interpretations of some of the fights back then seem very unclear...most likely because of the racism that existed in the world back then.

It seems like most of yall put louis ahead of johnson because he fought some fighters that were probably better then the competition johnson had, and they were alot more well known. But I think a prime Jack Johnson woulda beat Louis and anybody he ever fought

You're rating on fantasy h2h match ups instead of actual proven facts. Johnson was great, I believe I have him third or fourth all time. But Louis beat better fighters while never losing to fighters as inferior as Johnson lost to. Add in the 25 consecutive defenses and the fact the Johnson ducked Langford when Sam was clearly his most dangerous challenger and I don't think there should even be a debate as to who was greater heavyweight. Of course this is all just my opinion.

^^ thats respectable

The only thing you can really do with any comparison is go by the proven facts. Its just that what i have seen of jack johnson i believe that he woulda beat joe louis and everyone joe fought. When he was at his very best, he was very hard to hit because of the way he tied up his opponents so much and his movement. I've watched alotta old school legends like willie pep, sugar ray, louis, dempsey, etc. They all impressed me alot, i got ray robinson at #1 all time, but as far as heavyweights go i was amazed by jack johnson. Its too bad he didnt come around a little later, Id love to watch him fight louis, schmeling, baer, conn, walcott, etc. But the fact that i just named 5 real good heavyweights from that era and left out a few names says something about Louis's era. Im gonna have to put more thought into this and look for more jack johnson footage

^^ thats respectable

The only thing you can really do with any comparison is go by the proven facts. Its just that what i have seen of jack johnson i believe that he woulda beat joe louis and everyone joe fought. When he was at his very best, he was very hard to hit because of the way he tied up his opponents so much and his movement. I've watched alotta old school legends like willie pep, sugar ray, louis, dempsey, etc. They all impressed me alot, i got ray robinson at #1 all time, but as far as heavyweights go i was amazed by jack johnson. Its too bad he didnt come around a little later, Id love to watch him fight louis, schmeling, baer, conn, walcott, etc. But the fact that i just named 5 real good heavyweights from that era and left out a few names says something about Louis's era. Im gonna have to put more thought into this and look for more jack johnson footage

This isn't the right thread for it, but while we're on the subject....what are your thoughts of Greb or Langford rating higher than Robinson p4p? I wouldn't belittle anyone with Ray at #1, but in the last 18-24 months I've done quite a bit of reading and research and have elevated both ahead of Robby.

I'd have to do more research on both of them but Id love to read about them and watch the little bit of footage thats available. I plan on doing so...

I'd have to do more research on both of them but Id love to read about them and watch the little bit of footage thats available. I plan on doing so...

If you can get these two books. Both put the era's and competition into great perspective. You may not change your mind about where you rate SRR, and thats fine, but you'll have a greater understanding and appreciation of two guys who undoubtedly (in my opinion) belong at the very least in the p4p top 5 all time.

http://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Harry-Greb-Biography-Tragic/dp/0786440163

http://www.amazon.com/Sam-Langford-Greatest-Uncrowned-Champion/dp/1934733024

Heres my updated top 100. I moved Wlad up several spots to #78 after his win against Haye.


1. Lennox Lewis
2. Max Schmelling
3. Joe Louis
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. George Foreman
6. John L Sullivan
7. Max Baer
8. Sonny Liston
9. Mike Tyson
10. Vitali Klitschko
11. Muhammad Ali
12. Harry Wills
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Jack Dempsey
16. Riddick Bowe
17. Joe Frazier
18. Larry Holmes
19. Jack Johnson
20. Samuel Langford
21. Gentleman Jim Corbett
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Jim Jeffries
24. Oliver Mccall
25. Earnie Shavers
26. David Tua
27. Young Stribling
28. Tommy Morrison
29. Paddy Ryan
30. Frank Bruno
31. Peter Jackson
32. Primo Carnera
33. Jersey Joe Walcott
34. George Chuvalo
35. Buster Douglas
36. Buddy Baer
37. Jess Willard
38. Jerry Quarry
39. James Braddock
40. Ike Ibeabucci
41. Ezzard Charles
42. Floyd Patterson
43. Jack Sharkey
44. Ingemar Johannsen
45. Joe Jeanette
46. Kenneth Norton
47. Sir Henry cooper
48. Jimmy Young
49. Razor Ruddock
50. Two-Ton Tony Galento
51. Tommy Farr
52. Tim Witherspoon
53. Lou Nova
54. Earnie Terell
55. Michael Spinks
56. Marvin Hart
57. Bruce Wood****
58. Peter Maher
59. Tony Tucker
60. Corrie Sanders
61. Bob Pastor
62. Trevor Berbick
63. Tami Moriello
64. Lamon Brewster
65. Willie Meehan
66. Tommy Burns
67. Ray Mercer
68. Don ****ell
69. Billy Miske
70. Shannon Briggs
71. Ross Puritty
72. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
73. Hasim Rahman
74. Fireman Jim Flynn
75. Lamar Clark
76. Bob Foster
77. Fred Fulton
78. Wladimir Klitschko
79. Andrew Golota
80. KO Sweeny
81. Leon Spinks
82. Lou Nova
83. Charley Mitchell
84. David Haye
85. Timo Hoffmann
86. Tom Sharkey
87. Brian London
88. Jack London
89. Oscar Bonavena
90. Michael Grant
91. Jack Burke
92. Charles Kidd mccoy
93. Chris Byrd
94. Zora Folley
95. John Ruiz
96. Sam Peter
97. Charlie retzlaff
98. Nikolai Valuev
99. Pinklon Thomas
100. Tomasz Adamek

Heres my updated top 100. I moved Wlad up several spots to #78 after his win against Haye.


1. Lennox Lewis
2. Max Schmelling
3. Joe Louis
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. George Foreman
6. John L Sullivan
7. Max Baer
8. Sonny Liston
9. Mike Tyson
10. Vitali Klitschko
11. Muhammad Ali
12. Harry Wills
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Jack Dempsey
16. Riddick Bowe
17. Joe Frazier
18. Larry Holmes
19. Jack Johnson
20. Samuel Langford
21. Gentleman Jim Corbett
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Jim Jeffries
24. Oliver Mccall
25. Earnie Shavers
26. David Tua
27. Young Stribling
28. Tommy Morrison
29. Paddy Ryan
30. Frank Bruno
31. Peter Jackson
32. Primo Carnera
33. Jersey Joe Walcott
34. George Chuvalo
35. Buster Douglas
36. Buddy Baer
37. Jess Willard
38. Jerry Quarry
39. James Braddock
40. Ike Ibeabucci
41. Ezzard Charles
42. Floyd Patterson
43. Jack Sharkey
44. Ingemar Johannsen
45. Joe Jeanette
46. Kenneth Norton
47. Sir Henry cooper
48. Jimmy Young
49. Razor Ruddock
50. Two-Ton Tony Galento
51. Tommy Farr
52. Tim Witherspoon
53. Lou Nova
54. Earnie Terell
55. Michael Spinks
56. Marvin Hart
57. Bruce Wood****
58. Peter Maher
59. Tony Tucker
60. Corrie Sanders
61. Bob Pastor
62. Trevor Berbick
63. Tami Moriello
64. Lamon Brewster
65. Willie Meehan
66. Tommy Burns
67. Ray Mercer
68. Don ****ell
69. Billy Miske
70. Shannon Briggs
71. Ross Puritty
72. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
73. Hasim Rahman
74. Fireman Jim Flynn
75. Lamar Clark
76. Bob Foster
77. Fred Fulton
78. Wladimir Klitschko
79. Andrew Golota
80. KO Sweeny
81. Leon Spinks
82. Lou Nova
83. Charley Mitchell
84. David Haye
85. Timo Hoffmann
86. Tom Sharkey
87. Brian London
88. Jack London
89. Oscar Bonavena
90. Michael Grant
91. Jack Burke
92. Charles Kidd mccoy
93. Chris Byrd
94. Zora Folley
95. John Ruiz
96. Sam Peter
97. Charlie retzlaff
98. Nikolai Valuev
99. Pinklon Thomas
100. Tomasz Adamek

Dude, we're cool and all but that some frankenfrank type stuff right there.

Ali, Louis, Lewis, , Marciano, Dempsey,Holyfield, Wladimir Klitschko, Foreman, Tunney, Vitali Klitschko,Frazier

My top 11. . . Based on a combination of accomplishments and who would win based on completely subjective opinion. . . I simply can't see anybody aside from Ali and Lewis clearly having a chance of beating the Klitschko Brothers

I simply can't see anybody aside from Ali and Lewis clearly having a chance of beating the Klitschko Brothers

Funny, but at one point in the 1930s people were saying the similer things about Primo Carnera.....and we know how that movie ends.

Poet

Funny, but at one point in the 1930s people were saying the similer things about Primo Carnera.....and we know how that movie ends.

Poet
Carnera was a mafia circus freak. :dunce:

The Brothers Klitschko are the real article.

get with the program, swine

Carnera was a mafia circus freak. :dunce:

The Brothers Klitschko are the real article.

get with the program, swine

The Klits are Soviet circus freaks. :dunce:

get with the program, nuthugger :bottle:

Heres my updated top 100. I moved Wlad up several spots to #78 after his win against Haye.


1. Lennox Lewis - not top 10.
2. Max Schmelling - not top 20
3. Joe Louis - YAY !!
4. Bob Fitzsimmons You kidding ?... Jeffries is better for a start.........
5. George Foreman - not top 10.
6. John L Sullivan at least 6 spots too high.
7. Max Baer BAER at 7 ???.... how did you arrive at this ???
8. Sonny Liston TOO HIGH. Quitters are not in a top 10.
9. Mike Tyson - Holyfield ?????
10. Vitali Klitschko
11. Muhammad Ali So you don't rate this guy ????
12. Harry Wills
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano Got to be 7 places too low at least 49-0..42 K.O.'s ???????????????????????????
15. Jack Dempsey At least 10th, and if you think Tunney better than a prime Dempsey... you must be reading funny books.
16. Riddick Bowe 30 places too high.... where are his achievements ????
17. Joe Frazier at least 5 places TOO LOW. he beats Scmeling, Fitz and Baer big time.
18. Larry Holmes
19. Jack Johnson Underrated here.
20. Samuel Langford
21. Gentleman Jim Corbett
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Jim Jeffries Oh come on man.... this guy was one of THE BEST...... the opinions of the old-timers mean nothing ???
24. Oliver Mccall Should be no more than 100th..... the big CRY-BABY.
25. Earnie Shavers
26. David Tua Your'e saying that he was greater than Peter Jackson ??
27. Young Stribling NEWS FLASH !!!.. Stribling a better fighter than Peter Jackson too. ?????... what the ????
28. Tommy Morrison Peter Jackson was 10 times better than morrison.
29. Paddy Ryan
30. Frank Bruno
31. Peter Jackson Man you underrate Peter don't you ???
32. Primo Carnera
33. Jersey Joe Walcott
34. George Chuvalo
35. Buster Douglas
36. Buddy Baer This guy was nowhere near great, and nowhere near this high.
37. Jess Willard
38. Jerry Quarry
39. James Braddock
40. Ike Ibeabucci
41. Ezzard Charles
42. Floyd Patterson
43. Jack Sharkey
44. Ingemar Johannsen
45. Joe Jeanette
46. Kenneth Norton
47. Sir Henry cooper
48. Jimmy Young
49. Razor Ruddock
50. Two-Ton Tony Galento
51. Tommy Farr
52. Tim Witherspoon
53. Lou Nova
54. Earnie Terell
55. Michael Spinks
56. Marvin Hart
57. Bruce Wood****
58. Peter Maher
59. Tony Tucker
60. Corrie Sanders
61. Bob Pastor
62. Trevor Berbick
63. Tami Moriello
64. Lamon Brewster
65. Willie Meehan
66. Tommy Burns
67. Ray Mercer
68. Don ****ell
69. Billy Miske
70. Shannon Briggs
71. Ross Puritty
72. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
73. Hasim Rahman
74. Fireman Jim Flynn
75. Lamar Clark
76. Bob Foster
77. Fred Fulton
78. Wladimir Klitschko
79. Andrew Golota
80. KO Sweeny
81. Leon Spinks PADDY SLAVIN IS BETTER THAN spinks........ you should have Slavin at least about 60th.... but did you name him in your 100 ??????
82. Lou Nova
83. Charley Mitchell
84. David Haye
85. Timo Hoffmann
86. Tom Sharkey
87. Brian London
88. Jack London
89. Oscar Bonavena
90. Michael Grant
91. Jack Burke
92. Charles Kidd mccoy
93. Chris Byrd
94. Zora Folley
95. John Ruiz
96. Sam Peter
97. Charlie retzlaff
98. Nikolai Valuev
99. Pinklon Thomas
100. Tomasz Adamek

I will give you some credit for compiling a list of 100 HW's..... that is a great effort, but, I can't get over that top 10.............. I think you are having me on, this is not like any HW list I've ever seen......... it's a very original list.:haha::439:

I will give you some credit for compiling a list of 100 HW's..... that is a great effort, but, I can't get over that top 10.............. I think you are having me on, this is not like any HW list I've ever seen......... it's a very original list.:haha::439:



-Lennox is top ten on most reasonable lists.
-Foreman is top 10 on everyones list
-Schmelling is definitely top 20, beat Prime Joe Louis
-John L is top 10, The Moses of Heavyweights
-Baer killed mothafockas, thats why. Literally.
-Liston was a destroyer

-Holyfield is a cheater inside and out. Headbutts, Roids, etc.

-Ali got full marks in all criteria except for POWER, just missed it.

-Marciano fought too many old &/or small guys. Then retired at 32.

-Tunney and Dempsey are practically the same size, age, weight and Dempsey still couldnt win. Sorry.

- Fitz is better than Jeffries. Fitz was old and outweighed by 40 lbs when they fought. Prime Fitz smokes him.

-Frazier is good but not better than those guys.

-Mccall never been down or stopped

-paddy slavin has a losing record lol

-Need more video of Peter Jackson and his opponents

-Stribling: 250 fights and only loss 1 by KO(Schmelling)

Yes this is a real list with a consistent formula. Punching Power, Quality opponents, Quality of Era, Dominance, Accomplishment. Punching power is weighted heavily. If Ali had it he couldve ended fights a lot sooner and may be a healthier man today.

The Klits are Soviet circus freaks. :dunce:

get with the program, nuthugger :bottle:
raincheck, the soviet union hasn't existed for two decades

get with the program

raincheck, the soviet union hasn't existed for two decades

get with the program

Guess where The Klits grew up? Apparently you don't count real well either :dunce:

Poet

yes, because Russians and countries from the former soviet union don't rack in dozens upon dozens of Olympic gold medals every 4 years

:dunce:

yes, because Russians and countries from the former soviet union don't rack in dozens upon dozens of Olympic gold medals every 4 years

:dunce:

All the while racking up failed steroid tests.....try again Junior.

Poet

All the while racking up failed steroid tests.....try again Junior.

Poet

How does a Phd of Sports medicine fail a drug test?

Either he is the dumbest Doctor ever to walk Earth, or he was so roided out of his mind that he forgot to cycle off.

Either way, a circus creation.

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Larry Holmes
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Evander Holyfield
8. Max Baer
9. Mike Tyson
10. George Foreman

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Larry Holmes
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Evander Holyfield
8. Max Baer
9. Mike Tyson
10. George Foreman

A sensible list, and based on your posts i am sure you have intelligent reasons for ranking fighters places. But one question, Max Baer over Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, and Johnson? Do explain.

A sensible list, and based on your posts i am sure you have intelligent reasons for ranking fighters places. But one question, Max Baer over Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, and Johnson? Do explain.
I am a big fan and I couldn't "Baer" to leave him out of my top 10. If I weren't such a fan I'd probably replace him with Johnson. But I do think he was a very good HW, maybe not top 10 but top 15/20.

Also he had a huge amount of potential so I'm partly putting him there on talent.

I am a big fan and I couldn't "Baer" to leave him out of my top 10. If I weren't such a fan I'd probably replace him with Johnson. But I do think he was a very good HW, maybe not top 10 but top 15/20.

Also he had a huge amount of potential so I'm partly putting him there on talent.

Very Punny. :)

I do think that his resume and his inability to reach his full potential leave him top 15, but not top 10.

I am a big fan and I couldn't "Baer" to leave him out of my top 10. If I weren't such a fan I'd probably replace him with Johnson. But I do think he was a very good HW, maybe not top 10 but top 15/20.

Also he had a huge amount of potential so I'm partly putting him there on talent.

George Foreman was a huge Max Baer fan, and admired his raw power.

He's in my top 10 as well.

I don't consider Baer an ATG level fighter but it's nice seeing him get a little love for a change.

Poet

1. Muhammed Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Sam Langford
4. Jack Johnson
5. Larry Holmes
6. Lennox Lewis
7. Rocky Marciano
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike Tyson

I wasnt sure about ranking Holmes above Lewis but i felt i had to. Thats my top 10 anyhow.

1. Muhammed Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Sam Langford
4. Jack Johnson
5. Larry Holmes
6. Lennox Lewis
7. Rocky Marciano
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike Tyson

I wasnt sure about ranking Holmes above Lewis but i felt i had to. Thats my top 10 anyhow.

Im a big fan of Langford but find it interesting you not only have him in the top 10, but over Johnson. Jack clearly avoided Sam the second go round, but he has as good a resume, the h2h win and became the champion. P4p I see Sam or Greb as the best ever. But at heavyweight I can't find to many reasons to have him in the top 10. Other than that I think you have a very good list. :fing02:

1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Foreman
4.Holmes
5.Lewis
6.Frazier
7.Johnson
8.Marciano
9.Dempsey
10.Sonny

I find the more time I spend on Cox's Corner, the harder it gets to separate Louis, Ali and especially Johnson from each other on a top 10 list.

Anyone else?

(Also seeing Johnson miss a top 10 list makes me want to commit murder-suicide)

Im glad we have guys like Poet and JAB on BS. Ive learnt much from reading their comments in regards to boxing and it greats. I feel very lonely when i talk Jack Johnson with my friends and their like...who?....same goes for Willie Pep and other oldies.

I find the more time I spend on Cox's Corner, the harder it gets to separate Louis, Ali and especially Johnson from each other on a top 10 list.

Anyone else?

(Also seeing Johnson miss a top 10 list makes me want to commit murder-suicide)

I definitely have a hard time separating Ali and Louis, but I just can't include Johnson in ther with them. IMO, Muhammad and Joe are the first tier of heavyweights.

JJ was without a doubt an ATG, but his resume seems to fall short of GHWOAT status.

My top 10HW list:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Dempsey
6. Johnson
7. Liston
8. Marciano
9. Frazier
10. Lewis

Then what criteria do you have for Holmes being in third? As far as I'm aware his resume is nothing special.

Then what criteria do you have for Holmes being in third? As far as I'm aware his resume is nothing special.

Holmes resume is pretty solid even though his era was pretty weak. Holmes situation was very much like what Wladimirs is today, Holmes was clearly the best heavy during the late 70s - mid 80s and H2H he could be argued for being at the very top of the list, not to mention his pretty decent comeback racking up wins over Mercer, Ribalta and giving a very good account of himself against a peak Holyfield.

My top 10

1.Louis
2.Ali
3.Holmes
4.Marciano
5.Foreman
6.Lewis
7.Johnson
8.Dempsey
9.Frazier
10Liston

Thread starter here, haven't been around for a while and good to see this still going.

I haven't evaluated my list for a good few years now and it needs updating.

Like it or not it's about time we start mentioning the Klitchkos. With their achievments they have to be talked about alongside such other all time greats.
Also on H2H they have such huge advantages.

Will we ever see a good 6ft 215lb heavyweight evenly compete with a good 6ft 8" 250+lb heavyweight.

As much as we'd all hate it, isn't it time for a superheavyweight division.

Thread starter here, haven't been around for a while and good to see this still going.

I haven't evaluated my list for a good few years now and it needs updating.

Like it or not it's about time we start mentioning the Klitchkos. With their achievments they have to be talked about alongside such other all time greats.
Also on H2H they have such huge advantages.

Will we ever see a good 6ft 215lb heavyweight evenly compete with a good 6ft 8" 250+lb heavyweight.

As much as we'd all hate it, isn't it time for a superheavyweight division.

What up my friend? Good to see you creeping around the history section!

Head to head they're contenders in any era. As far as all time ranking at heavyweight.....I base my criteria mostly on resume. In that department Vitaly doesn't make the top 20. While impressive in his wins, the guys he has beaten have really accomplished nothing at heavyweight. A few decent names, but nothing to push him into the top 20.

Wlad, as boring as I find him, can make a case for top 15 all time. He's on a good streak and has been running through the division and beating the top contenders. Had he done this in a stronger era he'd probably be a shoe in for top 10. As it stands the era is weak and with lousy talent. This isn't his fault, but I can't justify bumping fighters who were just as if not more accomplished against fighters from tougher era's. Jmo.

Hi everyone, just joined and I know this has probably been done a million times, but just letting everyone know what I think.

Top 10 Greatest Heavyweights of all-time

1> Muhammad Ali
2> Larry Holmes
3> Lennox Lewis
4> Joe Louis
5> Evander Holyfield
6> Jack Johnson
7> George Foreman
8> Rocky Marciano
9> Joe Frazier
10>Mike Tyson

Ok let's be a little serious: what criterium is this list based on? Logic? Let's do some logic then. This above, is your top-10 favorite list, not the top-10 greatest.
Anyone who ever saw a boxing match on TV (I'm not talking about experts, only about non-blinded people), can't avoid from placing these boxers as a top 3 of all time. Anything else is questionable and arguable, but the top-3 ever boxers of all time is UN-ARGUABLY this one:

1. Joe Louis - technically as good as Ali, but -> he had a defense. <- The man had all the repertoire and in his prime he could have beaten any heavyweight of any era.

2. Rocky Marciano - By his own statement, and I agree with him, prime Louis was too much for him. Louis with his own great technique, reach advantage, speed, defense and power skills combined was the only heavyweight you can think of that could prevail on Marciano. 49-0 with 43 knockouts in 15-rounds fights, coming from a guy who averagely weighed 10lbs less than his opponents: consider that Wladimir Klistcko fights at averagely 210 lbs, Marciano fought averagely at 180. He was actually a light-heavyweight. So, the the record speaks for itself. Did he face the best opposition in history? Of course not. Did he fight bums? The "Marciano fought bums and old guys" catchphrase is useless haters' material, just like the "Calzaghe is a joke" and "Floyd Mayweather jr. is a coward" catchphrases are. Guess what's the little thing those 3 fighters have in common that drives the envious crazy? They stand undefeated. Enough said.

3. Muhammad Ali - He was the greatest at boxing but not at fighting if you get what I mean: guy had no defense. Lightning fast hands, who were never there to cover up his chin. And the parkinson disease is the unmistakeable proof that Ali took too much punishment in his career. Ali had a style which clearly couldn't match with Marciano's slickness nor with Louis power. I even doubt he could have made it against one like Jack Dempsey... But Dempsey's times came when boxing technique was too inaccurate compared to post-WW2 boxing. If you watch a video of Jess Willard shadowboxing, you'll most certainly get what I mean.
Anyway, for the quality of opponents he beat and the way he did that, Ali deserves this place.

I beg your pardon for sounding maybe a little too haughty, I don't want to sound like I'm the Gospel, but I'm not going to argue on the top-3 list. It's just too perfect: Louis, Marciano, Ali. It's just unarguably the all time boxing heavyweight top 3. I can't be defeated with any logic so it's all up for imagination & other odds. Example: Ali beats Marciano for a cut over the eye etc. etc. you get my point.

The rest of the list is of course arguable and here's mine:

4. Sam Langford - look at one of his highlight videos and see how brilliant he was, and how skilled despite the rough technique of the era. Then look at his record and see why I ranked him so high.

5. Jack Dempsey - he had that poor, rough, pre-WW1 technique, but the guy was a genius: think about the Dempsey roll, falling step and double shift, all techniques invented by Dempsey: he had a huge talent and was a pioneer in boxing techniques. If he was trained by one of today's trainers, he would demolish both the Kltschko's on the same night.

6. George Foreman

7. Sonny Liston

8. Mike Tyson

9. Jack Johnson

10. Floyd Patterson

The position from 4 on are all arguable, but the top-3 is absolutely unmodifiable untile the next great heavyweight era which is not the one we're in. :)

Ok let's be a little serious: what criterium is this list based on? Logic? Let's do some logic then. This above, is your top-10 favorite list, not the top-10 greatest.
Anyone who ever saw a boxing match on TV (I'm not talking about experts, only about non-blinded people), can't avoid from placing these boxers as a top 3 of all time. Anything else is questionable and arguable, but the top-3 ever boxers of all time is UN-ARGUABLY this one:

1. Joe Louis - technically as good as Ali, but -> he had a defense. <- The man had all the repertoire and in his prime he could have beaten any heavyweight of any era.

2. Rocky Marciano - By his own statement, and I agree with him, prime Louis was too much for him. Louis with his own great technique, reach advantage, speed, defense and power skills combined was the only heavyweight you can think of that could prevail on Marciano. 49-0 with 43 knockouts in 15-rounds fights, coming from a guy who averagely weighed 10lbs less than his opponents: consider that Wladimir Klistcko fights at averagely 210 lbs, Marciano fought averagely at 180. He was actually a light-heavyweight. So, the the record speaks for itself. Did he face the best opposition in history? Of course not. Did he fight bums? The "Marciano fought bums and old guys" catchphrase is useless haters' material, just like the "Calzaghe is a joke" and "Floyd Mayweather jr. is a coward" catchphrases are. Guess what's the little thing those 3 fighters have in common that drives the envious crazy? They stand undefeated. Enough said.

3. Muhammad Ali - He was the greatest at boxing but not at fighting if you get what I mean: guy had no defense. Lightning fast hands, who were never there to cover up his chin. And the parkinson disease is the unmistakeable proof that Ali took too much punishment in his career. Ali had a style which clearly couldn't match with Marciano's slickness nor with Louis power. I even doubt he could have made it against one like Jack Dempsey... But Dempsey's times came when boxing technique was too inaccurate compared to post-WW2 boxing. If you watch a video of Jess Willard shadowboxing, you'll most certainly get what I mean.
Anyway, for the quality of opponents he beat and the way he did that, Ali deserves this place.

I beg your pardon for sounding maybe a little too haughty, I don't want to sound like I'm the Gospel, but I'm not going to argue on the top-3 list. It's just too perfect: Louis, Marciano, Ali. It's just unarguably the all time boxing heavyweight top 3. I can't be defeated with any logic so it's all up for imagination & other odds. Example: Ali beats Marciano for a cut over the eye etc. etc. you get my point.

The rest of the list is of course arguable and here's mine:

4. Sam Langford - look at one of his highlight videos and see how brilliant he was, and how skilled despite the rough technique of the era. Then look at his record and see why I ranked him so high.

5. Jack Dempsey - he had that poor, rough, pre-WW1 technique, but the guy was a genius: think about the Dempsey roll, falling step and double shift, all techniques invented by Dempsey: he had a huge talent and was a pioneer in boxing techniques. If he was trained by one of today's trainers, he would demolish both the Kltschko's on the same night.

6. George Foreman

7. Sonny Liston

8. Mike Tyson

9. Jack Johnson

10. Floyd Patterson

The position from 4 on are all arguable, but the top-3 is absolutely unmodifiable untile the next great heavyweight era which is not the one we're in. :)
In no conceivable way is Marciano better than Ali.

In no conceivable way is Marciano better than Ali.

Lack of defense is a more than conceivable way, it's just logic: Ali relied too much on his chin, he had his guard always down regardless of the punches he took and therefore his opponents always took a lot from him: the Parkinson disease/punch-drunk syndrome he caught from the punches is the proof that he took too many of them. If Frazier was able to KD him, then imagine what Marciano would have done to him.
Ali's technique was just as good as it gets, but there's no way he'd have survived 15 rounds against Marciano. It's just out of logic.

Lack of defense is a more than conceivable way, it's just logic: Ali relied too much on his chin, he had his guard always down regardless of the punches he took and therefore his opponents always took a lot from him: the Parkinson disease/punch-drunk syndrome he caught from the punches is the proof that he took too many of them. If Frazier was able to KO him, then imagine what Marciano would have done to him.
Ali's technique was just as good as it gets, but there's no way he'd have survived 15 rounds against Marciano. It's just out of logic.

When exactly did Frazier KO Ali? :dunno:

When exactly did Frazier KO Ali? :dunno:

I meant KD sorry :)
Frazier was able to hit Ali with too much ease. In truth I believe that Ali's defense was too careless to work against Marciano's tremendous stamina, and relentless power.
Ali could evade punches very well, but that technique requires a lot of energy, so a fighter with such stamina as Marciano would have weared Ali down and caught him flush just like Frazier did in round 15 in the first fight.

Ali relied too much on his own chin, and he caught the punch-drunk syndrome: that shows how big a mistake he did: he should've worked much more on his defense and guard. Marciano had a slick defense, and so did Joe Louis: a solid defense is what misses Ali to be the best EVER.

Lack of defense is a more than conceivable way, it's just logic: Ali relied too much on his chin, he had his guard always down regardless of the punches he took and therefore his opponents always took a lot from him: the Parkinson disease/punch-drunk syndrome he caught from the punches is the proof that he took too many of them. If Frazier was able to KD him, then imagine what Marciano would have done to him.
Ali's technique was just as good as it gets, but there's no way he'd have survived 15 rounds against Marciano. It's just out of logic.

Willie Pep, Wilfred Benitez, and Nicolino Locche all had/have pugilistic dementia.
Pernell Whitaker slurs his words pretty badly.

I suppose that's because they all had poor defense, right?

Which Top 10 list is more valid?

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Mike Tyson
3. Max Schmelling
4. Max Baer
5. Marvin Hart
6. Michael Moorer
7. Michael Spinks
8. Michael Grant
9. Michael Dokes
10. Monte Barett

1. Joe Louis
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Jack Johnson
4. Joe Frazier
5. John L Sullivan
6. James Jeffries
7. James J Corbett
8. James Buster Douglas
9. Jersey Joe Walcott
10. Jess Willard

I meant KD sorry :)
Frazier was able to hit Ali with too much ease. In truth I believe that Ali's defense was too careless to work against Marciano's tremendous stamina, and relentless power.
Ali could evade punches very well, but that technique requires a lot of energy, so a fighter with such stamina as Marciano would have weared Ali down and caught him flush just like Frazier did in round 15 in the first fight.

Ali relied too much on his own chin, and he caught the punch-drunk syndrome: that shows how big a mistake he did: he should've worked much more on his defense and guard. Marciano had a slick defense, and so did Joe Louis: a solid defense is what misses Ali to be the best EVER.

You talk as if Marciano and Louis never got hit. Neither are known for their defense.

Which Top 10 list is more valid?

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Mike Tyson
3. Max Schmelling
4. Max Baer
5. Marvin Hart
6. Michael Moorer
7. Michael Spinks
8. Michael Grant
9. Michael Dokes
10. Monte Barett

1. Joe Louis
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Jack Johnson
4. Joe Frazier
5. John L Sullivan
6. James Jeffries
7. James J Corbett
8. James Buster Douglas
9. Jersey Joe Walcott
10. Jess Willard

I'll take the J's over the M's. Of course including Monte Barrett killed any chance for the M's.

I'll take the J's over the M's. Of course including Monte Barrett killed any chance for the M's.
Then adding Marvin Hart mutilated it's dead body.

Willie Pep, Wilfred Benitez, and Nicolino Locche all had/have pugilistic dementia.
Pernell Whitaker slurs his words pretty badly.

I suppose that's because they all had poor defense, right?

Pernell Whitaker slurs his words just like James Toney, that doesn't mean they have Parkinson.

Locche, Pep, Roy Jones jr (he's gonna have dementia too if he keeps on fighting): they all had their hands down all the match long... They slip one punch to please the crowd and then get caught flush for not paying enough attention to the opponent... That's what happens when showboating becomes more important than fighting : that's the weakness of many talented fighters: they rely too much on their talent, lose humility, their ego grows, they lose control and get hurt. Louis and Marciano didn't have those ego-issues: that's why they were the best.

I've read a fùcker calling Marciano "a flat footed slow ass"... That's what Marciano might look to a bored, ignorant spectator with no attention span: Marciano had little ego, he didn't like showboating, he respected his opponents, and he beat hard. Unlike Ali. Ali called himself "the greatest of all times", but he came to show he just had the greatest ego of all times.

Pernell Whitaker slurs his words just like James Toney, that doesn't mean they have Parkinson.

Locche, Pep, Roy Jones jr (he's gonna have dementia too if he keeps on fighting): they all had their hands down all the match long... They slip one punch to please the crowd and then get caught flush for not paying enough attention to the opponent... That's what happens when showboating becomes more important than fighting : that's the weakness of many talented fighters: they rely too much on their talent, lose humility, their ego grows, they lose control and get hurt. Louis and Marciano didn't have those ego-issues: that's why they were the best.

I've read a fùcker calling Marciano "a flat footed slow ass"... That's what Marciano might look to a bored, ignorant spectator with no attention span: Marciano had little ego, he didn't like showboating, he respected his opponents, and he beat hard. Unlike Ali. Ali called himself "the greatest of all times", but he came to show he just had the greatest ego of all times.
One of these days you might come to terms with the fact Ali is greater than Marciano.

Marciano died young he might have got Parkinsons etc in his later years.

Also you realise it's the consistent heavy sparring that causes damage not fighting. Unless you fight 300 bouts or something. I doubt Ali showboated during sparring when the tapes were off.

You talk as if Marciano and Louis never got hit. Neither are known for their defense.

Man, they were human: do you know a boxer who never got hit? Even Money Mayweather gets hit sometimes. :)

Marciano died young he might have got Parkinsons etc in his later years.
Marciano died at 46, Ali was diagnose Parkinson at 42. Roach even in his 20's. If Marciano had Parkinson, it would certainly have shown earlier.


Also you realise it's the consistent heavy sparring that causes damage not fighting. Unless you fight 300 bouts or something. I doubt Ali showboated during sparring when the tapes were off.
Good point there. Probably Marciano had also the wit to cover up better in sparring... Probably Ali had underestimated that. :)

One of these days you might come to terms with the fact Ali is greater than Marciano.
As a communicator and humanitarian? Maybe. As a fighter? I don't think so. (same goes for Joe Louis btw).

Marciano died at 46, Ali was diagnose Parkinson at 42. Roach even in his 20's. If Marciano had Parkinson, it would certainly have shown earlier.
Not necessarily, different people different means. For example in hereditary conditions it can show up in the son before the father.

Good point there. Probably Marciano had also the wit to cover up better in sparring... Probably Ali had underestimated that. :)
I'm unaware of either's sparring habits.


As a communicator and humanitarian? Maybe. As a fighter? I don't think so. (same goes for Joe Louis btw).
I've always thought Rocky was a better human than Ali but, a worse fighter.



Also parkinsons does not directly relate to getting punched in the head hard repeatedly for everyone. Look at Jake LaMotta he speaks alright and his brain seems fine. Let's not say LaMotta took less punishment than Freddie Roach.

Not necessarily, different people different means. For example in hereditary conditions it can show up in the son before the father.
That's correct. That doesn't change the fact that Parkinson's disease never showed up on Marciano.


I'm unaware of either's sparring habits.
Me too, you brought in the subject. :)



I've always thought Rocky was a better human than Ali but, a worse fighter.
Maybe he was a better human and a better fighter than Ali :)


Also parkinsons does not directly relate to getting punched in the head hard repeatedly for everyone. Look at Jake LaMotta he speaks alright and his brain seems fine. Let's not say LaMotta took less punishment than Freddie Roach.
That's correct. But maybe La Motta was really able to take a punch and didn't care to show he had an "iron chin" :D

Also, let me add one thing: the main reason people considers Ali better than Marciano is the opposition he faced: Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton... But let's remember that Ali had a considerable size advantage on Marciano: Rocky never fought over the 190 lbs... He often weighed just 180 or even less... Ali went on to weigh even 220 lbs... and he was often taller and heavier than his opponents.

Marciano fought the older Walcott but Walcot weighed a over 10lbs more than him. Joe Louis weighed 20lbs more than him at the time.

Ali beat Liston and Patterson, but Liston was 10 years older than him: a prime Liston could have knocked Ali out in in my opinion. Patterson was 8 years older and 15 lbs lighter than Ali...

So the opposition Ali faced was better than Marciano's but not enough to make him a greater fighter than Marciano. I'm not underrating Ali, I'm just recognizing Rocky his own credit.

Also, let me add one thing: the main reason people considers Ali better than Marciano is the opposition he faced: Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton... But let's remember that Ali had a considerable size advantage on Marciano: Rocky never fought over the 190 lbs... He often weighed just 180 or even less... Ali went on to weigh even 220 lbs... and he was often taller and heavier than his opponents.

The best people on Rocky's resume were CW anyway. Charles, Moore, Walcott.

Marciano fought the older Walcott but Walcot weighed a over 10lbs more than him. Joe Louis weighed 20lbs more than him at the time.
Walcott was a late bloomer as well so fighting him late isn't really a detractor.

Joe Louis was also quite a bit past prime. He was still a very good fight but, a shade of his former self.

Ali beat Liston and Patterson, but Liston was 10 years older than him: a prime Liston could have knocked Ali out in in my opinion. Patterson was 8 years older and 15 lbs lighter than Ali...
Where do you consider Liston's prime? Liston always loses to Ali in my opinion.

So the opposition Ali faced was better than Marciano's but not enough to make him a greater fighter than Marciano. I'm not underrating Ali, I'm just recognizing Rocky his own credit.

Both were Undisputed HW Champion. Ali making 19 defences to Rocky's 4.
Ali fought a higher percentage of Top 10 opponents throughout his career than anyone in history and in a better era than Rocky.

Has great wins such as prime George Foreman, a win which decimates any on Rocky's resume.

Also did amazing past prime beating Norton and as I said earlier Foreman.

Locche, Pep, Roy Jones jr (he's gonna have dementia too if he keeps on fighting): they all had their hands down all the match long... They slip one punch to please the crowd and then get caught flush for not paying enough attention to the opponent...


No, no they didn't, Locche had his arms up as much as he had them down and please show me where Locche or Pep slip one punch and get hit by another, for every 1 you show me I'll show you 3 of them avoiding / blocking combinations. That's if the opponent has a chance too start a combo and they aren't already out of the way.

Man, they were human: do you know a boxer who never ghot hit? Even Money Mayweather gets hit sometimes. :)

Then stop talking about their defense as if they never got hit.


Both took more punishment than Ali did. Marciano's nose was split in half by Charles and please show me any fight where Ali got hit as much as Louis did against Schmeling in the first fight.

That's correct. That doesn't change the fact that Parkinson's disease never showed up on Marciano.


Me too, you brought in the subject. :)



Maybe he was a better human and a better fighter than Ali :)


That's correct. But maybe La Motta was really able to take a punch and didn't care to show he had an "iron chin" :D

Also, let me add one thing: the main reason people considers Ali better than Marciano is the opposition he faced: Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton... But let's remember that Ali had a considerable size advantage on Marciano: Rocky never fought over the 190 lbs... He often weighed just 180 or even less... Ali went on to weigh even 220 lbs... and he was often taller and heavier than his opponents.

Marciano fought the older Walcott but Walcot weighed a over 10lbs more than him. Joe Louis weighed 20lbs more than him at the time.

Ali beat Liston and Patterson, but Liston was 10 years older than him: a prime Liston could have knocked Ali out in in my opinion. Patterson was 8 years older and 15 lbs lighter than Ali...

So the opposition Ali faced was better than Marciano's but not enough to make him a greater fighter than Marciano. I'm not underrating Ali, I'm just recognizing Rocky his own credit.


You're really not worth responding to so this will be my last one. I'll end it by saying your comments about Ali "wanting" to get hit by the likes of Shavers, Liston, Foreman,or Frazier are just ignorant.

The best people on Rocky's resume were CW anyway. Charles, Moore, Walcott.


Walcott was a late bloomer as well so fighting him late isn't really a detractor.

Joe Louis was also quite a bit past prime. He was still a very good fight but, a shade of his former self.


Where do you consider Liston's prime? Liston always loses to Ali in my opinion.



Both were Undisputed HW Champion. Ali making 19 defences to Rocky's 4.
Ali fought a higher percentage of Top 10 opponents throughout his career than anyone in history and in a better era than Rocky.

Has great wins such as prime George Foreman, a win which decimates any on Rocky's resume.

Also did amazing past prime beating Norton and as I said earlier Foreman.


We all agree that Ali faced a better opposition. Yet he's got in his record two losses against Frazier and Norton, who both were in a lower class than Marciano. Let alone the latest losses against Holmes and Berbick (which still are a proof that Ali trespassed the border, while Marciano choose the right moment to retire), if Ali was able to lose against Frazier and Norton, how could he have beaten someone like Rocky? Well, anything can happen in boxing so Ali could have had an upsetting win, but I find it really hard to picture :)

So, let's get back to pure logic (the rest, as I said, is up for imagination and will never be unveiled): Rocky was a better fighter than Ali and that's out of argument (altho smaller he had better punching power, stamina and defense), but if according to your logic, Ali deserves to be ranked higher than Marciano due to his better resume, then Larry Holmes deserves to be ranked higher than both Ali and Marciano since he has a better resume than both of them.

You're really not worth responding to so this will be my last one. I'll end it by saying your comments about Ali "wanting" to get hit by the likes of Shavers, Liston, Foreman,or Frazier are just ignorant.

I never said he wanted to get hit, I just believe he relied too much on his chin and not enough on his defense.

No, no they didn't, Locche had his arms up as much as he had them down and please show me where Locche or Pep slip one punch and get hit by another, for every 1 you show me I'll show you 3 of them avoiding / blocking combinations. That's if the opponent has a chance too start a combo and they aren't already out of the way.

Locche liked too much to tease his opponent and he paid that habit by getting hit a little too often and unexpectedly.

Both took more punishment than Ali did. Marciano's nose was split in half by Charles and please show me any fight where Ali got hit as much as Louis did against Schmeling in the first fight.

Against Schmeling, Louis didn't take a beating because he was busy taunting and talking to his opponent, like Ali did against Frazier for example (that is a BAD habit for a boxer and Ali paid dearly for it)...
Let's put it this way: Ali showed a more solid chin than Louis, but Louis showed a more accurate and responsible defense with his chin always covered up by his left shoulder. Louis took a beating against legendary Max Schmeling who was one heck of a fighter at the time and by the way that was more of a psychological failure than anything: I believe he just adopted the wrong tactics because he didn't expect such a recklessly violent approach from Schmeling and was unable to respond: but he then recovered from that beating and made a superb comeback against Schmeling himself. Somehow like Ali did against Frazier: I'm not intentioned to make Ali look like a loser..
In the end the quality of Louis' opposition, the number of his title defenses combined with his technical and athletic skills are enough to rank him higher than both Marciano and Ali in my opinion.

As for he rest: how could Marciano take more punishment than Ali if he never lost a fight in his career?? Also, a punch on the nose is less damaging than a punch on the head: Ali had a pretty nose, and he never took a beating (he was too fast and good) but he took too many punches to the chin (blows to the chin rebound directly on the nervous system) and to the temples: even among amateurs I see a lot of boxers taking punches to the temple because they don't hurt immediately, but they are very dangerous. Also, Ali was known to have let his sparring partner beat hard on him to get used to the real-fight bruise. That was also probably a mistake of his.

Bottom line - I don't wanna let you guys down so I'll give you this: Marciano might have been a better fighter than ali, but Ali was the prettiest heavyweight ever to step in a ring!! :D :D

We all agree that Ali faced a better opposition. Yet he's got in his record two losses against Frazier and Norton, who both were in a lower class than Marciano. Let alone the latest losses against Holmes and Berbick (which still are a proof that Ali trespassed the border, while Marciano choose the right moment to retire), if Ali was able to lose against Frazier and Norton, how could he have beaten someone like Rocky? Well, anything can happen in boxing so Ali could have had an upsetting win, but I find it really hard to picture :)



Marciano isn't better than Joe Frazier in ANY category except possibly chin. Frazier is bigger, faster, stronger, has better footwork, had stamina and heart equal to Marciano, and hit every bit as hard.

Against Schmeling, Louis didn't take a beating because he was busy taunting and talking to his opponent, like Ali did against Frazier for example (that is a BAD habit for a boxer and Ali paid dearly for it)...
Let's put it this way: Ali showed a more solid chin than Louis, but Louis showed a more accurate and responsible defense with his chin always covered up by his left shoulder. Louis took a beating against legendary Max Schmeling who was one heck of a fighter at the time and by the way that was more of a psychological failure than anything: I believe he just adopted the wrong tactics because he didn't expect such a recklessly violent approach from Schmeling and was unable to respond: but he then recovered from that beating and made a superb comeback against Schmeling himself. Somehow like Ali did against Frazier: I'm not intentioned to make Ali look like a loser..
In the end the quality of Louis' opposition, the number of his title defenses combined with his technical and athletic skills are enough to rank him higher than both Marciano and Ali in my opinion.

As for he rest: how could Marciano take more punishment than Ali if he never lost a fight in his career?? Also, a punch on the nose is less damaging than a punch on the head: Ali had a pretty nose, and he never took a beating (he was too fast and good) but he took too many punches to the chin (blows to the chin rebound directly on the nervous system) and to the temples: even among amateurs I see a lot of boxers taking punches to the temple because they don't hurt immediately, but they are very dangerous. Also, Ali was known to have let his sparring partner beat hard on him to get used to the real-fight bruise. That was also probably a mistake of his.

Bottom line - I don't wanna let you guys down so I'll give you this: Marciano might have been a better fighter than ali, but Ali was the prettiest heavyweight ever to step in a ring!! :D :D

If you've actually seen Louis-Schmeling I (or even read about it), you'd see that it was a defensive lapse on Louis' end that allowed Maxie to continually pop him with the right hand.

We all agree that Ali faced a better opposition. Yet he's got in his record two losses against Frazier and Norton, who both were in a lower class than Marciano. Let alone the latest losses against Holmes and Berbick (which still are a proof that Ali trespassed the border, while Marciano choose the right moment to retire), if Ali was able to lose against Frazier and Norton, how could he have beaten someone like Rocky? Well, anything can happen in boxing so Ali could have had an upsetting win, but I find it really hard to picture :)

So, let's get back to pure logic (the rest, as I said, is up for imagination and will never be unveiled): Rocky was a better fighter than Ali and that's out of argument (altho smaller he had better punching power, stamina and defense), but if according to your logic, Ali deserves to be ranked higher than Marciano due to his better resume, then Larry Holmes deserves to be ranked higher than both Ali and Marciano since he has a better resume than both of them.
How does Marciano beat Ali after he goes tooth and nail with La Starza.

And you seem to be forgetting, firstly: that was not a prime version of Ali and secondly he avenged both losses twice.

Holmes doesn't have a better resume than Ali...

Against Schmeling, Louis didn't take a beating because he was busy taunting and talking to his opponent, like Ali did against Frazier for example (that is a BAD habit for a boxer and Ali paid dearly for it)...
Let's put it this way: Ali showed a more solid chin than Louis, but Louis showed a more accurate and responsible defense with his chin always covered up by his left shoulder. Louis took a beating against legendary Max Schmeling who was one heck of a fighter at the time and by the way that was more of a psychological failure than anything: I believe he just adopted the wrong tactics because he didn't expect such a recklessly violent approach from Schmeling and was unable to respond: but he then recovered from that beating and made a superb comeback against Schmeling himself. Somehow like Ali did against Frazier: I'm not intentioned to make Ali look like a loser..
In the end the quality of Louis' opposition, the number of his title defenses combined with his technical and athletic skills are enough to rank him higher than both Marciano and Ali in my opinion.

As for he rest: how could Marciano take more punishment than Ali if he never lost a fight in his career?? Also, a punch on the nose is less damaging than a punch on the head: Ali had a pretty nose, and he never took a beating (he was too fast and good) but he took too many punches to the chin (blows to the chin rebound directly on the nervous system) and to the temples: even among amateurs I see a lot of boxers taking punches to the temple because they don't hurt immediately, but they are very dangerous. Also, Ali was known to have let his sparring partner beat hard on him to get used to the real-fight bruise. That was also probably a mistake of his.

Bottom line - I don't wanna let you guys down so I'll give you this: Marciano might have been a better fighter than ali, but Ali was the prettiest heavyweight ever to step in a ring!! :D :D
You can win and still take beatings, here's a list.

Frazier vs Ali I
Ali vs Frazier III
Corrales vs Castillo
Pacquiao vs Marquez
LaMotta vs Dauthuille.

You can win and still take beatings, here's a list.

Frazier vs Ali I
Ali vs Frazier III
Corrales vs Castillo
Pacquiao vs Marquez
LaMotta vs Dauthuille.

You can have a battered face and not have suffered much brain damage. You can have a rather clean face and DIE from brain damage like Benny Paret... What argument does that bring?

Marciano isn't better than Joe Frazier in ANY category except possibly chin. Frazier is bigger, faster, stronger, has better footwork, had stamina and heart equal to Marciano, and hit every bit as hard.

Frazier had a great left hook but his right didn't cope with it. Marciano had knockout power in both hands. The only advantage Frazier had on Marciano was his size.

How does Marciano beat Ali after he goes tooth and nail with La Starza.

AHAHAH LaStarza... Dude clinched Marciano all the way until he ran into his right hand and was knocked through the ropes... "tooth and nail"... Come on, what match are you talking about? :)


And you seem to be forgetting, firstly: that was not a prime version of Ali and secondly he avenged both losses twice.
That's very honorable for him, comeback is what makes one boxer a champion... That doesn't change the fact that he made two big mistakes, and they came after he had talked crap to (I'd even say "underestimated") his opponents. Marciano hit harder than both Norton and Frazier, he'd have made Ali pay his own mistakes at a higher price than Norton or Frazier.


Holmes doesn't have a better resume than Ali...

He made more title defenses, and faced dangerous boxers (Shavers, Norton, Berbick, Spinks) as well, none as big as Frazier and Foreman but he did notable things Ali didn't do such as beating prime Ray Mercer at the age of 43... He also virtually ended Ali's career. In a rather brutal fashion I'd say. That fight could have been avoided.
20 consecutive title defenses... We're talking about world titles in the heavyweight division. That means he didn't make one mistake for 7 years against top contenders. That's one hell of a resume.

I'll give you this: Ali had the chance to face the best at their peak. he didn't always win, but he had that chance and took it. That stands alone as a great thing. Marciano didn't have that chance to feed his own legend. But he beat nonetheless opponents that would have given hard times to any champion (Charles, Walcott and Moore). And he beat all of them (more than once), without mistakes, without lapses of style: that is the best resume a boxer could get. I only put Joe Louis above Marciano because of his record of defenses (25) and also for the quality of the opposition. That's good logic to me. The rest is up for imagination. :)

AHAHAH LaStarza... Dude clinched Marciano all the way until he ran into his right hand and was knocked through the ropes... "tooth and nail"... Come on, what match are you talking about? :)

Maybe the first one which was close on all the judges scorecards, you know. The split decision?


That's very honorable for him, comeback is what makes one boxer a champion... That doesn't change the fact that he made two big mistakes, and they came after he had talked crap to (I'd even say "underestimated") his opponents. Marciano hit harder than both Norton and Frazier, he'd have made Ali pay his own mistakes at a higher price than Norton or Frazier.
That was a past prime Ali though and he avenged both losses twice, winning the series...



He made more title defenses, and faced dangerous boxers (Shavers, Norton, Berbick, Spinks) as well, none as big as Frazier and Foreman but he did notable things Ali didn't do such as beating prime Ray Mercer at the age of 43... He also virtually ended Ali's career. In a rather brutal fashion I'd say. That fight could have been avoided.

The ****tier version of Norton than Ali beat, He lost to Spinks. Wow Trevor Berbick really shouting out HOF names here. Ali also beat Shavers, not getting dropped in the process. Maybe you don't remember?

20 consecutive title defenses... We're talking about world titles in the heavyweight division. That means he didn't make one mistake for 7 years against top contenders. That's one hell of a resume.
Top contenders in a weaker era than Ali. And I've already pointed out the Ali contenders stat.
I'll give you this: Ali had the chance to face the best at their peak. he didn't always win, but he had that chance and took it. That stands alone as a great thing.
He won the series against Frazier and Norton while past prime. Liston, Foreman etc etc.
Marciano didn't have that chance to feed his own legend. But he beat nonetheless opponents that would have given hard times to any champion (Charles, Walcott and Moore). And he beat all of them (more than once), without mistakes, without lapses of style: that is the best resume a boxer could get.
More like didn't have the chance to lose once in a while like Ali. Yeah those guys are hard fights for anyone but, Charles is not nearly stopping Ali with a half torn off nose, nor is Walcott outboxing him. Yeah he beat "all of them" former LHW/CW, or washed up greats. Nice resume.
I only put Joe Louis above Marciano because of his record of defenses (25) and also for the quality of the opposition. That's good logic to me. The rest is up for imagination. :)
At least you're consistent.

I think we're simply wasting our time.

Nick, if you're going to insist that there is "logic" in ranking Marciano ahead of Ali, despite the fact that Ali had over three times the number of successful title defenses, beat twice the number of hall of famers, and was a vastly more versatile and skilled fighter, who was nearly unhittable in his prime...

And regarding defense... Ali was down four times in his career, a career that spanned 541 rounds, for an average of one knockdown every 135 rounds.

Marciano was down twice in 241 rounds, an average of one knockdown every 120 rounds.

Maybe the first one which was close on all the judges scorecards, you know. The split decision?

I haven't seen that fight... I'll check it out if I find it around. Anyway LaStarza was a tough upcoming fighter who stood 37-0 at the time, he was a slick clincher and sure knew the craft... Rocky won the fight anyway, and made quick work of him in the rematch. It's not easy boxing against grabbers and clinchers. Ali also had a split decision victory over Norton, that's not a shame. A victory is still a victory.



The ****tier version of Norton than Ali beat, He lost to Spinks. Wow Trevor Berbick really shouting out HOF names here. Ali also beat Shavers, not getting dropped in the process. Maybe you don't remember?
Ali faced better opposition thanks to the Foreman and Frazier fights, but Holmes balanced that by doing 20 consecutive title defenses and beating strong prime fighters when he was past his 40's. :)




Top contenders in a weaker era than Ali. And I've already pointed out the Ali contenders stat.
Alo faced the best opposition any heavyweght has ever faced. That's why I gave him the third place on an all.time list.
1. The heavyweight fighter who made more consecutive title defenses than anyone (Joe Louis)
2. The only unbeaten heavyweight champion, and we're talking about 49-0, not 20 or so (Marciano)
3. The heavyweight who had to face the tougher opposition. (Ali)
That's a good criterium to me.


More like didn't have the chance to lose once in a while like Ali. Yeah those guys are hard fights for anyone but, Charles is not nearly stopping Ali with a half torn off nose, nor is Walcott outboxing him. Yeah he beat "all of them" former LHW/CW, or washed up greats. Nice resume.
The nose has quite a fragile structure and it's easy to break. Also, black people's nose is less prominent and therefore less exposed to punches. Props to Rocky for winning the fight with a nose like that. You got to admit he had an inner strenght that no one had in the history of boxing. Also I don't see Norton or Frazier winning over Marciano.

Nick, if you're going to insist that there is "logic" in ranking Marciano ahead of Ali, despite the fact that Ali had over three times the number of successful title defenses, beat twice the number of hall of famers, and was a vastly more versatile and skilled fighter, who was nearly unhittable in his prime...

Well if you don't like the term"logic" then call it "criterium"... If the number of title defenses is a good criterium to rate one fighter higher than another, than Holmes must be rated higher than both Ali and Marciano... Would you rate Larry Holmes higher than Marciano?
Also, if beating the highest number of hall-of-famers is a rating criterium, then Ezzard Charles (who beat 9 hall of famers), Sam Langford (11) and Joe Louis (8) are all to be rated higher than Ali... Also Jack Johnson defeated 7 hall of famers, who do you rate higher, Johnson or Ali? And anyway, the hall of fame is just a recognition based on the people's opinion, there are sure boxers who deserve to be in the hall of fame and aren't inducted, it's like the Oscars: there are lots of mediocre movies that won the Oscar and great movies that didn't win.
Also, Marciano was a better fighter than Ali: he was hit less often, he had more punching power, stamina and focus. Ali was better on handspeed and footwork, but his defense was irresponsible at best, he used to talk to his opponent in the ring, tease him and then lose the fight! Ali used to take punishment on himself for the sake of showboating, when the first and most simple rule of boxing that the referee repeats on every fight is "protect yourself at all times"... How can a fighter who underrates this basic and simple rule of boxing be considered a better fighter than Rocky Marciano? In the first Frazier fight, Ali spent precious energy talking to Frazier, he lost stamina and was knocked down in the 15th round... Was that smart to you? On second thought, was that even professional? He lost that fight like a kid. You just cannot call Ali a better fighter than Marciano when Marciano never did any of that sh1t. Fighting Rocky with an attitude like that, Ali woulda been caught FLUSH by Rocky and you can imagine what that would mean.



And regarding defense... Ali was down four times in his career, a career that spanned 541 rounds, for an average of one knockdown every 135 rounds.

Marciano was down twice in 241 rounds, an average of one knockdown every 120 rounds.

That's an interesting figure: Ali stood 15 rounds more than Marciano without going down despite his five losses. He just stood up and took punches...

I think we're simply wasting our time.
Why do you keep writing then? You have time to waste? :)

I haven't seen that fight... I'll check it out if I find it around.
Don't think it's on film, easy to find anyway.

Anyway LaStarza was a tough upcoming fighter who stood 37-0 at the time, he was a slick clincher and sure knew the craft... Rocky won the fight anyway, and made quick work of him in the rematch.
Ali stopped Frazier convincingly the third time, beat him the second time.
And again, past prime Ali. Prime Marciano.

It's not easy boxing against grabbers and clinchers. Ali also had a split decision victory over Norton, that's not a shame. A victory is still a victory.
LaStarza wasn't as good as Norton or Frazier though.

Ali faced better opposition thanks to the Foreman and Frazier fights, but Holmes balanced that by doing 20 consecutive title defenses and beating strong prime fighters when he was past his 40's. :)
Toughest opposition is the main criteria, does Joe Calzaghe rank high on your ATG list for past prime wins and title defences?

Alo faced the best opposition any heavyweght has ever faced. That's why I gave him the third place on an all.time list.
1. The heavyweight fighter who made more consecutive title defenses than anyone (Joe Louis)
2. The only unbeaten heavyweight champion, and we're talking about 49-0, not 20 or so (Marciano)
3. The heavyweight who had to face the tougher opposition. (Ali)
That's a good criterium to me.
It's about who you beat not the piece of jewellery you are wearing when you do it. And again, you place so much on title defences in your reasoning for having Louis at #1, then have Marciano above Ali. Despite Ali having 4 times as many defences and more consecutively than Marciano, and you justify this by saying "Marciano is unbeaten." Again, screams Joe Calzaghe or Floyd Mayweather fanboy.

The nose has quite a fragile structure and it's easy to break. Also, black people's nose is less prominent and therefore less exposed to punches. Props to Rocky for winning the fight with a nose like that. You got to admit he had an inner strenght that no one had in the history of boxing. Also I don't see Norton or Frazier winning over Marciano.
I'm pretty certain black people have naturally larger noses...
"Lets rank him higher for inner strength." Ali fought with a broken jaw, he had guts too you know.

Rocky beats Norton KO3 in my opinion due to Norton not taking good to being backed up , however Frazier TKO's Rocky. More skilled, bigger.

Well if you don't like the term"logic" then call it "criterium"... If the number of title defenses is a good criterium to rate one fighter higher than another, than Holmes must be rated higher than both Ali and Marciano... Would you rate Larry Holmes higher than Marciano?
You're mixing criteria and not sticking to the same for your list as I pointed out earlier. It's all to suit your agenda. Also, you're from Italy which explains a bit.

Also, if beating the highest number of hall-of-famers is a rating criterium, then Ezzard Charles (who beat 9 hall of famers), Sam Langford (11) and Joe Louis (8) are all to be rated higher than Ali... Also Jack Johnson defeated 7 hall of famers, who do you rate higher, Johnson or Ali?
Johnsons HOF wins consisting of pre prime, washed up or lighter fighters. Ali's legitimate good Heavyweights. HOF is just a term it can be used to band all of them in it. There are levels in the Hall of Fame. Do you rank a win against Henry Armstrong at FW the same as a win against Barry McGuigan at FW?

Also, Marciano was a better fighter than Ali: he was hit less often, he had more punching power, stamina and focus. Ali was better on handspeed and footwork, but his defense was irresponsible at best, he used to talk to his opponent in the ring, tease him and then lose the fight! Ali used to take punishment on himself for the sake of showboating, when the first and most simple rule of boxing that the referee repeats on every fight is "protect yourself at all times"... How can a fighter who underrates this basic and simple rule of boxing be considered a better fighter than Rocky Marciano? In the first Frazier fight, Ali spent precious energy talking to Frazier, he lost stamina and was knocked down in the 15th round... Was that smart to you? On second thought, was that even professional? He lost that fight like a kid. You just cannot call Ali a better fighter than Marciano when Marciano never did any of that sh1t. Fighting Rocky with an attitude like that, Ali woulda been caught FLUSH by Rocky and you can imagine what that would mean.

I suppose you could say Rocky was hit less if it was actually true. Same it wasn't. Ali's stamina was maybe just as good as Rocky's. Only marginally worst at the best. Fair enough Rocky had more punching power but, he wasn't as fast, accurate or as clever with his.

When did Ali talking in the ring ever make him lose the fight, and when did he take punishment for the sake of showboating?

Stop talking like Rocky was a textbook fighter, he was far from it.

Your last point is irrelevant unless you come up with some evidence for my above question.


That's an interesting figure: Ali stood 15 rounds more than Marciano without going down despite his five losses. He just stood up and took punches...
So he had a better chin than Rocky then, more heart? Using the logic you've used throughout this debate then I think I can make claims like this.

Muhammad Ali TKO12 Rocky Marciano.

Deal with it.

Muhammad Ali / Cassius Clay is the Best Heavyweight

Mike Tyson is the Best Puncher of all time.

As there is little a HW can do to advance his pound-for-pound status, I tend to put more emphasis on Ability/Skills/H2H.

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Joe Louis
03. George Foreman
04. Larry Holmes
05. Sonny Liston
06. Lennox Lewis
07. Mike Tyson
08. Joe Frazier
09. Rocky Marciano
10. Jack Johnson

LaStarza wasn't as good as Norton or Frazier though.

A lot of ringside observers thought LaStarza got robbed in the first go around with Marciano.

Poet

A lot of ringside observers thought LaStarza got robbed in the first go around with Marciano.

Poet
Yeah, I feel if that decision actually went the other way Marciano would not get rated as high as he does. Half the reason for ranking Marciano high (as you can see when I'm "debating" with that guy a few pages back." is he is "undefeated."

It's all well and good being undefeated but, when only 7 out of your 49 opponents are that good then what should it matter?

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Larry Holmes
5. Jack Johnson
6. George Foreman
7. Evander Holyfield
8. Mike Tyson
9. Joe Frazier
10. Rocky Marciano

headache!

it takes decades of researching and passion to do a credible list.

Monte Cox's ratings, updated February 2012:

Heavyweight Ratings

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Jack Dempsey
Joe Frazier
Jack Johnson

Best Overall Boxer: Muhammad Ali
Fastest: Muhammad Ali
Best Fundamentally: Joe Louis
Best Jab: Larry Holmes
Best Left Hook: Jack Dempsey, Joe Frazier
Best Right Cross: Joe Louis
Best Uppercut: George Foreman, Mike Tyson
Best Counter Puncher: Joe Louis
Best Knockout Puncher (Power AND Accuracy): Joe Louis
Best Combination Punching: Joe Louis
Hardest One Punch: Mike Tyson
Best Body Puncher: Joe Frazier
Best Finisher: Joe Louis
Best Footwork: Muhammad Ali
Best at Feinting: Jack Johnson
Best Defense: Jack Johnson
Strongest Physically: George Foreman
Best Conditioned: Rocky Marciano
Best Chin: Muhammad Ali
Best Competition: Muhammad Ali

In order to be historically accurate, Holyfield's cruiserweight scalps have to count for something which means HOFer Dwight Muhammad Qawi (x2) adds to his resume. Riddick Bowe (Top 10 H2H), Larry Holmes (goes without saying well past, but coming off a UD of Mercer),George Foreman (who would regain the title three years later). People conveniently forget Mike Tyson came into the fight November 1996 as a huge favorite. It was Holyfield - four years older - who was considered done having battled various health issues. This was a fantastic win and nobody is to take it from him with revisionist drivel. He wouldve stopped him again in the rematch and was the last time a win over Tyson would bear much significance. There's also Michael Dokes, Michael Moorer (avenged defeat), Ray Mercer (before Lewis' dubious MD victory).

Only a damn fool would disregard the abilities of Bowe. While he lacked a consistent work ethic and was fairly easy to hit, his strengths are obvious: Immense size, excellent jab, superb inside (particularly for a big man), crisp combination punching and a great chin. Holyfield was woefully outsized, and against a very talented superheavyweight unlike the sloths today.

Pretty phenomenal resume, really. I'd argue it's comfortably up to par with Lennox Lewis who seems to be rated quite highly around these parts.

1. Arreola
2. Chisora
3. Wlad
4. Chagaev
5. Esch
6. Botha
7. Vitali
8. Douglas
9. Ali
10. Fury