View Full Version : BOXING'S GREATEST FIGHTERS - Bert Randolph Sugar


Panamaniac
07-20-2007, 02:47 AM
"Bert Sugar has a passion for the sport that is rivaled only by his talent for writing about it" - New York Sportscene


FOREWORD
Bert Randolph Sugar, known as the "unofficial historian" and "the guru" of boxing, is one of the most charismatic writers ever to capture the drama of fights and fighters on paper. One of the most recognizable personalities in the sport, Sugar - with his trademark fedora and cigar - has been called "entertaining, insightful, and eminently colorful." A member of the International Boxing Hall of Fame, he has served as the editor of The Ring, Boxing Illustrated, and Fight Game magazines, and is the author of more than fifty books.

Bert Randolph Sugar
http://www.strategyboxing.com/Images/bert.jpg

"...No amount of fistic bookkeeping could account for "greatness" absent other elements in the equation." - Bert Sugar

100 Greatest Boxers of All Time


Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Willie Pep
Joe Louis
Harry Greb
Benny Leonard
Muhammad Ali
Roberto Duran
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Mickey Walker
Tony Canzoneri
Gene Tunney
Rocky Marciano
Joe Gans
Sam Langford
Julio Cesar Chavez
Jimmy Wild
Stanley Ketchel
Barney Ross
Jimmy McLarnin
Archie Moore
Marcel Cerdan
Ezzard Charles
Sugar Ray Leonard
Joe Walcott
Jake LaMptta
Eder Jofre
Emile Griffith
Terry McGovern
George Foreman
Johnny Dundee
Jose Napoles
Pascual Perez
Billy Conn
Ruben Olivares
Joe Frazier
Tommy Loughran
Sandy Saddler
Kid Chocolate
Abe Atell
Evander Holyfield
George Dixon
Maxie Rosenbloom
Larry Holmes
Ted "Kid" Lewis
Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Pernell Whitaker
Carlos Zarate
Thomas Hearns
Battling Nelson
Beau Jack
Ricardo Lopez
John L. Sullivan
Carlos Monzon
Alexis Arguello
Carmen Basilio
Pete Herman
Charley Burley
Ike Williams
Kid Gavilan
Jack Britton
Dick Tiger
Pancho Villa
Panama Al Brown
Bob Fitzsimmons
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Tiger Flowers
James J. Corbett
Tony Zale
Tommy Ryan
Georges Carpentier
Sonny Liston
"Kid" McCoy
Bob Foster
Freddie Welsh
Joe Jeannette
Jim Driscoll
Jersey Joe Walcott
Peter Jackson
Ad Wolgast
Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
Manuel Ortiz
James J. Jeffries
Salvador Sanchez
Jimmy Barry
Carlos Ortiz
Roy Jones, Jr.
Wilfredo Gomez
Aaron Pryor
Bernard Hopkins
Mike Gibbons
Jack Delaney
Johnny Kilbane
Willie Ritchie
Wilfredo Benitez
Packey McFarland
Rocky Graziano
Lew Jenkins
Mike Tyson

Your thoughts...


SEE APPENDIX AT POST #39

satori555
07-20-2007, 02:56 AM
mayweathers not number 1? clearly this guy is an idiot and needs to watch more boxing

Panamaniac
07-20-2007, 03:13 AM
mayweathers not number 1? clearly this guy is an idiot and needs to watch more boxingAren't you more upset that he doesn't even make the list?

bishop2006
07-20-2007, 03:23 AM
I like Bert but cummon,he's got Sugar Ray Leonard 25th??
Julio Cesar Chavez #17 but Pernell Whitaker #48th? Even though he was one of the best fighters ever,beat Julio Cesar Chavez easily and got robbed with a DRAW,i dont see how Chavez can be ranked higher

robjr
07-20-2007, 04:02 AM
there is no more than 10 fighters on this list who even fought in the 90s.. bert like his oldies.. people really thought floyd was going to be on this list?

Kball15
07-20-2007, 08:28 AM
mayweathers not number 1? clearly this guy is an idiot and needs to watch more boxing

He overates a lot of the old timers. Like Benny Leonard. #6 all time? gimme a break, id put him at LEAST 10 spots higher on the list.

small_warrior
07-20-2007, 08:50 AM
Bert sugar, is an old nostalgic fool, mike tyson only at 100

Panamaniac
07-20-2007, 10:41 AM
Bert sugar, is an old nostalgic fool, Mike Tyson only at 100To me, that's the most glaring absurdity (for lack of a better word) of all. It might have been less of an outrage not to include Tyson at all. As for the generational bias, that's perfectly understandable, as it's human nature to favor one's contemporaries.

SpeedKillz
07-20-2007, 10:45 AM
Bert sugar, is an old nostalgic fool, mike tyson only at 100

agreed.

i dont care much for bert sugar. theres some good fighters on that list but my list would be WAY different, and yes robjr, i think floyd mayweather SHOULD be on a list of top 100 fighters, especially if leonard and sweet pea are. my opinion.

DiegoFuego
07-20-2007, 10:48 AM
I don't respect him at all. Mayweather not even on the list? Haha yeah ****ing right.

adamk1304
07-20-2007, 11:08 AM
lewis and mayweather should be on the list, and tyson should be a lot higher.

the330ballers
07-20-2007, 04:11 PM
lewis and mayweather should be on the list, and tyson should be a lot higher.

this book was written a long time ago and then edited again i dont when but definitely before mayweather beat dlh cause i've had the book for awhile. bert wouldnt put him on till after mayweathers career is over.

i got a lot of things i'd disagree with but it's still a good book. for example tyson, where does he go? there are so many people that would rank him near the top because of potential and so many who wouldnt even put him on the list because he didn't beat anyone other than spinks and lost all of his big fights. i bet if everyone here came up with a top 100 p4p they wouldnt look anywhere near the same.

oh yeah and bert obviously has a bias towards old fighters.

squealpiggy
07-20-2007, 07:03 PM
He overates a lot of the old timers. Like Benny Leonard. #6 all time? gimme a break, id put him at LEAST 10 spots higher on the list.

You would put him at -4 all time?

robjr
07-20-2007, 08:51 PM
agreed.

i dont care much for bert sugar. theres some good fighters on that list but my list would be WAY different, and yes robjr, i think floyd mayweather SHOULD be on a list of top 100 fighters, especially if leonard and sweet pea are. my opinion.

I respect yer opinion.. but he aint no leonard or sweet pea..

Shanus
07-20-2007, 08:56 PM
Hagler too low, Whittaker too low, Leonard too low, Tyson too low, and Willie Pep is without a doubt #2.

Addison
07-20-2007, 08:57 PM
"Bert Sugar has a passion for the sport that is rivaled only by his talent for writing about it" - New York Sportscene


FOREWORD
Bert Randolph Sugar, known as the "unofficial historian" and "the guru" of boxing, is one of the most charismatic writers ever to capture the drama of fights and fighters on paper. One of the most recognizable personalities in the sport, Sugar - with his trademark fedora and cigar - has been called "entertaining, insightful, and eminently colorful." A member of the International Boxing Hall of Fame, he has served as the editor of The Ring, Boxing Illustrated, and Fight Game magazines, and is the author of more than fifty books.

Bert Randolph Sugar
http://www.strategyboxing.com/Images/bert.jpg

"...No amount of fistic bookkeeping could account for "greatness" absent other elements in the equation." - Bert Sugar

100 Greatest Boxers of All Time


Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Willie Pep
Joe Louis
Harry Greb
Benny Leonard
Muhammad Ali
Roberto Duran
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Mickey Walker
Tony Canzoneri
Gene Tunney
Rocky Marciano
Joe Gans
Sam Langford
Julio Cesar Chavez
Jimmy Wild
Stanley Ketchel
Barney Ross
Jimmy McLarnin
Archie Moore
Marcel Cerdan
Ezzard Charles
Sugar Ray Leonard
Joe Walcott
Jake LaMptta
Eder Jofre
Emile Griffith
Terry McGovern
George Foreman
Johnny Dundee
Jose Napoles
Pascual Perez
Billy Conn
Ruben Olivares
Joe Frazier
Tommy Loughran
Sandy Saddler
Kid Chocolate
Abe Atell
Evander Holyfield
George Dixon
Maxie Rosenbloom
Larry Holmes
Ted "Kid" Lewis
Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Pernell Whitaker
Carlos Zarate
Thomas Hearns
Battling Nelson
Beau Jack
Ricardo Lopez
John L. Sullivan
Carlos Monzon
Alexis Arguello
Carmen Basilio
Pete Herman
Charley Burley
Ike Williams
Kid Gavilan
Jack Britton
Dick Tiger
Pancho Villa
Panama Al Brown
Bob Fitzsimmons
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Tiger Flowers
James J. Corbett
Tony Zale
Tommy Ryan
Georges Carpentier
Sonny Liston
"Kid" McCoy
Bob Foster
Freddie Welsh
Joe Jeannette
Jim Driscoll
Jersey Joe Walcott
Peter Jackson
Ad Wolgast
Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
Manuel Ortiz
James J. Jeffries
Salvador Sanchez
Jimmy Barry
Carlos Ortiz
Roy Jones, Jr.
Wilfredo Gomez
Aaron Pryor
Bernard Hopkins
Mike Gibbons
Jack Delaney
Johnny Kilbane
Willie Ritchie
Wilfredo Benitez
Packey McFarland
Rocky Graziano
Lew Jenkins
Mike Tyson

Your thoughts...


Nice to see Duran so high.. I guess. :fing02:


Who was faster and more deadly accurate than Robert in Leonard I?

The trajectory on some of those shots had after-burn on them. :bigeyes:

THe TRiNiTY
07-20-2007, 09:04 PM
The Mayweather thing is a bit crazy, but Mike Tyson wasn't that great to me, never was. Sorry. And I like the guy, you guys just pick one or two things you disagree with and base your opinion of him, on that. Very....... wrong, in my opinion. The list itself, is pretty decent. Sugar Roy Robinson, would KILL Floyd Mayweather, by the way.

Dirt E Gomez
07-20-2007, 09:09 PM
Those of you bashing the list.

Bert (if memory serves) has stated that the list only included retired fighters, so most modern fighters do not cut the list for obvious reasons.

Also, all of you people insulting the list need to shut the **** up. I sincerely doubt anybody who has posted in this thread thus far could create a list of 100 greatest fighters that would even come close to matching people's approval.

He is wrong about 1 thing though... Moore should be top 10.

Addison
07-20-2007, 09:16 PM
BTW - what was the specific criteria he used this to come by?

If anyone knows..

Shanus
07-20-2007, 09:17 PM
Those of you bashing the list.

Bert (if memory serves) has stated that the list only included retired fighters, so most modern fighters do not cut the list for obvious reasons.

Also, all of you people insulting the list need to shut the **** up. I sincerely doubt anybody who has posted in this thread thus far could create a list of 100 greatest fighters that would even come close to matching people's approval.

He is wrong about 1 thing though... Moore should be top 10.

You're right, nobody I know of could make a better top 100 list (if a top 100 list at all), but from what we DO know, surely we're allowed to put our opinions across.

Don Johnson
07-20-2007, 09:17 PM
SRR would literally kill any welterweight today.

Don Johnson
07-20-2007, 09:18 PM
Mayweather doesn't belong on the list at all. He hasn't justifies it yet. He is soooo talented but just doesn't put it to much use.

Shanus
07-20-2007, 09:18 PM
BTW - what was the specific criteria he used this to come by?

If anyone knows..

Pound for pound, which in my opinion means demonstrated ability combined with competition and dominance regardless of weight class.

Dirt E Gomez
07-20-2007, 09:19 PM
You're right, nobody I know of could make a better top 100 list (if a top 100 list at all), but from what we DO know, surely we're allowed to put our opinions across.

Putting up your opinion about what should be moved higher, lower, on the list, off the list etc is fine... but when people are calling Sugar a moron because of his choices is just ridiculous.

Shanus
07-20-2007, 09:24 PM
Putting up your opinion about what should be moved higher, lower, on the list, off the list etc is fine... but when people are calling Sugar a moron because of his choices is just ridiculous.

That's the part I agreed with.

People don't understand that these lists are highly opinionated, that's HIS top 100 list, not the official top 100 list which we must all agree with, and shouldn't diss it because we don't.

When I say somebody should be higher, that's my personal opinion, I'm not saying that they SHOULD be higher with everybody else in complete and utter agreement.

Opinions, people, they're like *******s, we all have one.

Except for Addison, he's too articulate to poop.

Addison
07-20-2007, 09:27 PM
Pound for pound, which in my opinion means demonstrated ability combined with competition and dominance regardless of weight class.

It seems difficult to avoid crossing up, and randomly selectively throwing names out..

The reason I pose the question is because I think any list of 100 - regardless of what it is, should be governed by some sort of structured - if not scientifically organized system of provable, establishable pretense.

Bert Sugar is an egomaniac.

Shanus
07-20-2007, 09:28 PM
It seems difficult to avoid crossing up, and randomly selectively throwing names out..

The reason I pose the question is because I think any list of 100 - regardless of what it is, should be governed by some sort of structured - if not scientifically organized system of provable, establishable pretense.

Bert Sugar is an egomaniac.

He's the biggest egomaniac in boxing, you're right.

Can't help but respect him though.

Addison
07-20-2007, 09:30 PM
He's the biggest egomaniac in boxing, you're right.

Can't help but respect him though.

He still lives for the fights. I dig that.

Addison
07-20-2007, 09:32 PM
It seems difficult to avoid crossing up, and randomly selectively throwing names out..

The reason I pose the question is because I think any list of 100 - regardless of what it is, should be governed by some sort of structured - if not scientifically organized system of provable, establishable pretense.

Bert Sugar is an egomaniac.

Functionally speaking all 100 of these guys are equal.


Except for #1, or #2, or ah ****!!!...

Thus the reason for some kind of system.

THE END

Addison
07-20-2007, 09:35 PM
What if we threw all these guys in a pit?

Who would walk out?


I got money on "Mr. 100." :fing02: Mr. dead last.. :wank:

Shanus
07-20-2007, 09:44 PM
What if we threw all these guys in a pit?

Who would walk out?


I got money on "Mr. 100." :fing02: Mr. dead last.. :wank:

There's no doubt about that, he'd have the highest kill count too.

Addison
07-20-2007, 09:47 PM
There's no doubt about that, he'd have the highest kill count too.

:lol1: Beautiful

Ziggy Stardust
07-20-2007, 10:02 PM
Attention! All Tyson KoolAid drinkers attention! Important public service announcment! Drinking Tyson KoolAid leads to permanent brain damage! Symptoms of said brain damage include the compulsive urge to put Leg-Iron Mike on P4P lists, premature ejaculation at any Tyson highlight film, incipent desires to chew on ears of peeps who annoy you, and out of body experiences where you dream of being butt raped in prison. The only known solution is to refrain from drinking Tyson brand KoolAid and watching a 72 hour marathon of Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis fights so you can identify what REAL fighters look like!

PS. Bert Sugar's out his mind: He should have left that overrated f*** off the list.

Poet

TyrantT316
07-20-2007, 10:16 PM
You know this list is a joke if Holyfield and Tyson make the list...but no Lennox Lewis...

Panamaniac
07-21-2007, 12:41 AM
this book was written a long time ago and then edited again i dont when but definitely before mayweather beat dlh cause i've had the book for awhile. bert wouldnt put him on till after mayweathers career is over.Be that as it may, this edition was copyrighted in 2006.

Nostromo
07-21-2007, 02:23 AM
It's tough enough to select 100 greatest fighters, let alone place them in order of greatness. My hat's off to Bert Sugar. And on his head, if you get my drift...

Bogler
07-21-2007, 02:45 AM
i believe mayweather hasnt fully retired yet when this was compiled so he's not in the list. but you'll get an idea where he would be if he's retired at this moment, highest at around 50, just below hagler and whitaker.

so all those who said mayweather would hardly break top 50 goat were not pretty off the mark, if you follow bert's list.

Panamaniac
07-21-2007, 11:40 AM
Attention! All Tyson KoolAid drinkers attention! Important public service announcment! Drinking Tyson KoolAid leads to permanent brain damage! Symptoms of said brain damage include the compulsive urge to put Leg-Iron Mike on P4P lists, premature ejaculation at any Tyson highlight film, incipent desires to chew on ears of peeps who annoy you, and out of body experiences where you dream of being butt raped in prison. The only known solution is to refrain from drinking Tyson brand KoolAid and watching a 72 hour marathon of Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis fights so you can identify what REAL fighters look like!

PS. Bert Sugar's out his mind: He should have left that overrated f*** off the list.

Poet:offtopic: Spoken like the founder and most loyal member of the Mike Tyson fan club...

Panamaniac
07-22-2007, 02:13 AM
Here is Bert Sugar's last word on his controversial book:

APPENDIX

Those greats who were on the cusp of being part of the elite 100 in Boxing's Greatest Fighters and just missed getting in are:


Lou Ambers
Kid Azteca
Max Baer
Marco Antonio Barrera*
Jack "Kid" Berg
Joe Brown
Ken Buchanan*
Antonio Cervantes*
Oscar De La Hoya*
Dixie Kid
Mike Donovan
Sixto Escobar
Jeff French
Tiger Jack Fox
Gene Fullmer
Young Griffo
Fighting Harada
Harry Jeffra
Harold Johnson
Fidel LaBarba
George "Kid" Lavigne
John Henry Lewis
Lennox Lewis*
Benny Lynch
Floyd Mayweather, Jr.*
Jack McAuliffe
Mike McCallum
Sam McVey
Billy "Honey" Mellody
Bob Montgomery
Owen Moran
Matthew Saad Muhammad*
Azumaf Nelson*
Lazlo Papp
Eusebio Pedroza*
Billy Petrolle
Max Schmeling
Jack Sharkey
Jimmy Slattery
Mysterious Billy Smith
Michael Spinks*
Lew Tendler
Harry Wills*Fighters of the modern era