But besides that statement of the obvious, where have guys like Sabbath, K-Dogg, Kid Achilles, Buddy, Butterfly, Stinger, etc., run off to?

I only ask because I don't see much in the way of recent posts from any of these guys in the history section here.

This is a big risk for you. Coming out of retirement with this topic and all. But i agree a little bit, Ali is overrated sometimes.

Oh and SS and Butterfly are around. Others are probably busy, and the rest have disapeared, 1 of wich i'm happy about.

This is a big risk for you. Coming out of retirement with this topic and all. But i agree a little bit, Ali is overrated sometimes.

Oh and SS and Butterfly are around. Others are probably busy, and the rest have disapeared, 1 of wich i'm happy about.

Told ya Yogi would make a comeback. The best champs hate retirement and yearn to don the gloves once more.

Nice to see you again yogi.

The thread title was really only meant to grab attention, Yaman, as a few of those guys I named there were big Ali fans and tended to be quite vocal about it on here.

Good to see that you're still around, though, my friend.

Told ya Yogi would make a comeback. The best champs hate retirement and yearn to don the gloves once more.

Nice to see you again yogi.

AYYYY!

Good to see you too, Stinger.

Oh, and out of curiosity, who's the current champ on here now?

AYYYY!

Good to see you too, Stinger.

Oh, and out of curiosity, who's the current champ on here now?

the title is vacant I am afraid. No eliminator tournament has be organised so I am hoping you can beat off the pretenders.

Ya you were right on this one, Stinger.
And welcome back Yogi. Looking forward to read some good posts again.

the title is vacant I am afraid. No eliminator tournament has be organised so I am hoping you can beat off the pretenders.

That's a shame, although I don't think I'd be all that eligible considering that, in my current state of mind, I'm liable to take a dive against even someone like Catskills.

P.S. Thanks Yaman.

Ah, I see that McGrain is on the site now, and while I don't really know him all that well beyond a few posts at ESB, what little I do know of him suggests that he is a quality poster, and that this place isn't without some fresh bloood at least.

I think Ali is overrated for the simple fact that there were points in his career in which he was cruising on decisions he got just because he was Muhammad Ali and the champion. But overall the man was a monster. I also think that a lot of people who really don't know boxing just know Muhammad Ali the name and decide that because he was called the greatest he had to be the greatest. Don't get me wrong I'm a pretty big Ali fan myself but I can see where your coming from.

I think Ali is overrated for the simple fact that there were points in his career in which he was cruising on decisions he got just because he was Muhammad Ali and the champion. But overall the man was a monster. I also think that a lot of people who really don't know boxing just know Muhammad Ali the name and decide that because he was called the greatest he had to be the greatest. Don't get me wrong I'm a pretty big Ali fan myself but I can see where your coming from.
Muhammad Ali IS WAS & ALWAYS WILL BE

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE GREATEST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:boxing: :boxing: :hail: :spank:

I think Ali is overrated for the simple fact that there were points in his career in which he was cruising on decisions he got just because he was Muhammad Ali and the champion. But overall the man was a monster. I also think that a lot of people who really don't know boxing just know Muhammad Ali the name and decide that because he was called the greatest he had to be the greatest. Don't get me wrong I'm a pretty big Ali fan myself but I can see where your coming from.



Muhammad Ali IS WAS & ALWAYS WILL BE

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE GREATEST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:boxing: :boxing: :hail: :spank:

But besides that statement of the obvious, where have guys like Sabbath, K-Dogg, Kid Achilles, Buddy, Butterfly, Stinger, etc., run off to?

I only ask because I don't see much in the way of recent posts from any of these guys in the history section here.

Change this thread title dickhead.

Change this thread title dickhead.

I'm not sure I know how to do that even if I wanted to, but as an alternative can I instead offer you a tissue for your tear perhaps?

K-Dogg found a new job and doesn't have a home computer or something like that but Matt made a thread the other day sayin that he had spoke to him so maybe he knows how to find him.

K-Dogg found a new job and doesn't have a home computer or something like that but Matt made a thread the other day sayin that he had spoke to him so maybe he knows how to find him.

Oh right, K-Dogg did use to say that he only posted from work before, so yeah, that would make perfect sense as to why he's not posting here any more.

Thanks Darren.

I think Ali is overrated for the simple fact that there were points in his career in which he was cruising on decisions he got just because he was Muhammad Ali and the champion. But overall the man was a monster. I also think that a lot of people who really don't know boxing just know Muhammad Ali the name and decide that because he was called the greatest he had to be the greatest. Don't get me wrong I'm a pretty big Ali fan myself but I can see where your coming from.

You my friend are an idiot. If you're a true boxing fan, there's One unspoaken rule is you never disrespect the greatest.

Ali was the greatest in and out of the ring. Period. End of discussion

You my friend are an idiot.

That's pretty uncalled for, my friend, especially when the only thing even remotely negative towards Ali in Bengi's post was an opinion that Ali had influence over some judges just because of his name & standing in the sport, which would be views that are quite similiar to this opinion, for example;

"The Ali legend has a history of impressing the judges and the referee." - so said Ferdie Pacheco midway through Ali/Norton III

Pacheco also refered the the "cruising" part of Bengi's opinion, as well, just before that statement when he stated that "Ali hasn't done anything except for a lot of showboating", which again shows that Bengi's opinion isn't all that uncommon, even by those close to Ali.

But then again, could you possibly be, for example, one of three people in the world (the other two being two of the judges, with one reportedly having Ali up by 70-61...the other was atleast kind enough to find one round in there for Foreman) who thought Ali was pitching a clear shutout against Foreman?

I agree with YOGI... we humans have a way of viewing the PAST with rose coloured glasses.. There is NO doubt Ali was Great Boxer.. He was the one of the best of his ERA.. But HIS ERA was no better than ANY OTHER ERA.. I DARE ANYBODY to compare any top 10 list from any era and to explain to me why its better than any other top 10 list.. I bet you cant .. In fact I know you cant.. So shut up and join the present..

Good point Welter. Every boxer who is dead is overrated. But Ali is overrated for more reasons and in more ways.

I agree with YOGI... we humans have a way of viewing the PAST with rose coloured glasses.. There is NO doubt Ali was Great Boxer.. He was the one of the best of his ERA.. But HIS ERA was no better than ANY OTHER ERA.. I DARE ANYBODY to compare any top 10 list from any era and to explain to me why its better than any other top 10 list.. I bet you cant .. In fact I know you cant.. So shut up and join the present..

that is actually perfectly possible, when the levels are ridicolously different. like when comparing the current HWs to the 90s HWs and the 70s HWs.

I will explain to you how to make the comparison?

you watch the fights

and

notice that

1) current HWs gas out,
2) they are on average terribly deficient in the skills compartment (inside fighting, anyone?)
3) an old fat (and great, luckily) middleweight can make a very goodrun
4) the number one HW has three stoppage losses in his 20s

then you watch the 90s or 70s HW and you notice that the current crop made young George Foreman look the reincarnation of Ray Robinson.

The easiest two comparisons to make are the workrate, and movement. Today's heavyweights stand almost completely still, willing to trade or induce a punch to find counter-haymaker opportunities. They take almost ten seconds (or more!) in between punches. They hesitate and rarely let their hands go. Today's fighters also train far less often than those of old. Fighters used to stay in shape all the time, as boxing was their life. The current era seems to promote training for the few weeks right before a fight, make your millions, and get lazy and fat once at the top (see: Rahman).

They are smart, however. There's no way they would be suckered into chasing Ali around the ring, tiring themselves out. At the same time, Ali would win the judges by simply doing more than the sloths out there today. The Klitschko brothers, as well as Lennox Lewis--to name a few recent champions--would probably be good in any era, however. They not only have such size and strength, but solid jabs that punish opponents perpetually. Consider that Lewis, in his prime, was more than 20 pounds heavier than George Foreman in his, and a far more skilled boxer.

I don't believe that the size really makes the difference, but when that incredible size is added to great skill, I could see how today's fighters would do well against the old. Note, I was only able to name three from recent years, however, one of which is retired, another who just came out of retirement, and the third who may not get to be undisputed champion before his career starts on the downslope.

My long-winded point is, there isn't a top ten list from today. You get about 4 decent heavyweights in the last decade, comparable to those in other eras, whereas most other eras easily fill up the list to ten.

Current decade:
1. Lennox Lewis
2. Vitali Klitschko
3. Hasim Rahman (when in shape, he was pretty astounding)
4.-10. Irrelevant, mostly guys past their prime

that is actually perfectly possible, when the levels are ridicolously different. like when comparing the current HWs to the 90s HWs and the 70s HWs.

I will explain to you how to make the comparison?

you watch the fights

and

notice that

1) current HWs gas out,
2) they are on average terribly deficient in the skills compartment (inside fighting, anyone?)
3) an old fat (and great, luckily) middleweight can make a very goodrun
4) the number one HW has three stoppage losses in his 20s

then you watch the 90s or 70s HW and you notice that the current crop made young George Foreman look the reincarnation of Ray Robinson.

Produce the LISTS... Then tell me How Chuck Wepner a top 10 fighter from the glory years of the 70's is any better than Lamon Brewster.. or Sam Peter.. YOU CANT.. I have been watching boxing for 30 years.. NOTHING has changed .. except the Public's acceptance and media coverage..

The easiest two comparisons to make are the workrate, and movement. Today's heavyweights stand almost completely still, willing to trade or induce a punch to find counter-haymaker opportunities. They take almost ten seconds (or more!) in between punches. They hesitate and rarely let their hands go. Today's fighters also train far less often than those of old. Fighters used to stay in shape all the time, as boxing was their life. The current era seems to promote training for the few weeks right before a fight, make your millions, and get lazy and fat once at the top (see: Rahman).

They are smart, however. There's no way they would be suckered into chasing Ali around the ring, tiring themselves out. At the same time, Ali would win the judges by simply doing more than the sloths out there today. The Klitschko brothers, as well as Lennox Lewis--to name a few recent champions--would probably be good in any era, however. They not only have such size and strength, but solid jabs that punish opponents perpetually. Consider that Lewis, in his prime, was more than 20 pounds heavier than George Foreman in his, and a far more skilled boxer.

I don't believe that the size really makes the difference, but when that incredible size is added to great skill, I could see how today's fighters would do well against the old. Note, I was only able to name three from recent years, however, one of which is retired, another who just came out of retirement, and the third who may not get to be undisputed champion before his career starts on the downslope.

My long-winded point is, there isn't a top ten list from today. You get about 4 decent heavyweights in the last decade, comparable to those in other eras, whereas most other eras easily fill up the list to ten.

Current decade:
1. Lennox Lewis
2. Vitali Klitschko
3. Hasim Rahman (when in shape, he was pretty astounding)
4.-10. Irrelevant, mostly guys past their prime

Oh yeah Hasim Rahman:rolleyes:.. MR lucky punch who has LOST every big fight he has ever been in.. save for the Lucky punch...

Try Wlad Klitschko who has been KNocking out TOP 15 fighters for 8-9 years now..

Produce the LISTS... Then tell me How Chuck Wepner a top 10 fighter from the glory years of the 70's is any better than Lamon Brewster.. or Sam Peter.. YOU CANT.. I have been watching boxing for 30 years.. NOTHING has changed .. except the Public's acceptance and media coverage..

There is no need to give you a list. Just watch the fights. When was the last time you saw a Holyfield-Bowe? or even a Tua-Ibeabuchi for that matter...

NOTHING has changed? maybe the number of people practicing it? thank god we have the russians now, otherwise the HW division would be a freak show for big ppl who are too fat to play basket and not fat enough to play football.

I know from NSB you are a Wlad fan, so I doubt you will never admit it, since it does not fit your "agenda". I am not wasting my time anymore, bye.

There is no need to give you a list. Just watch the fights. When was the last time you saw a Holyfield-Bowe? or even a Tua-Ibeabuchi for that matter...

NOTHING has changed? maybe the number of people practicing it? thank god we have the russians now, otherwise the HW division would be a freak show for big ppl who are too fat to play basket and not fat enough to play football.

I know from NSB you are a Wlad fan, so I doubt you will never admit it, since it does not fit your "agenda". I am not wasting my time anymore, bye.

So Brewster Lyakhovich wasn't as exciting a fight as Bowe Holyfeild??? How does being a Wlad fan change anything??? Do you remember the 80's??? Gonna tell me that was a better era TOO? I am not saying the olden days were bad.. I just refuse to say these days suck.. there are problems.. but the talent level is NOT one of them...

How does being a Wlad fan give me an agenda???? Are you a paranoid freak or something??? do you cover your head in Foil wrap so the Aliens cant "talk" to you???

So Brewster Lyakhovich wasn't as exciting a fight as Bowe Holyfeild??? How does being a Wlad fan change anything??? Do you remember the 80's??? Gonna tell me that was a better era TOO? I am not saying the olden days were bad.. I just refuse to say these days suck.. there are problems.. but the talent level is NOT one of them...

How does being a Wlad fan give me an agenda???? Are you a paranoid freak or something??? do you cover your head in Foil wrap so the Aliens cant "talk" to you???

Brewster-Lyakhovich was exciting in a Gatti-Ward type of way, Bowe-Holy was exciting and with a neat display of skills.

when did I freaking mention the 80s??? read my first post, "when the difference is huge you can make comparisons"... obviously discussing if it is worse that 200+ lbs people cannot beat Charles or its worse if they cant beat Spinks is a pretty hard argument to make.


as for the connection being a Wlad fan and saying that comparisons are impossible, you should be able to see the logical connection.

No I am not paranoid, that's why "agenda" instead of agenda... ;)

You my friend are an idiot. If you're a true boxing fan, there's One unspoaken rule is you never disrespect the greatest.

Ali was the greatest in and out of the ring. Period. End of discussion

Do me a favor for a second and get off Ali's dick. In the ring he was a damn good boxer who spent his career using his name to win fights. Out of the ring ring he was an attention whore, womanizer, draft dodger. If you were a boxing fan you would know there are many fighters better than Ali. Thanks for your time you can get back on his dick now.

^^^I agree


Hamed>>>Ali

Do me a favor for a second and get off Ali's dick. In the ring he was a damn good boxer who spent his career using his name to win fights. Out of the ring ring he was an attention whore, womanizer, draft dodger. If you were a boxing fan you would know there are many fighters better than Ali. Thanks for your time you can get back on his dick now.

Haha, Ali isn't even my favorite heavyweight anyway. There's a reason why he lit the flames in the 1996 summer games. Sure there are a few(not many) heavyweights better then Ali. My only point is you just don't argue his greatness. That's all I ment plain and simple. If he's the greatest then that's the way it is.

Do me a favor for a second and get off Ali's dick. In the ring he was a damn good boxer who spent his career using his name to win fights. Out of the ring ring he was an attention whore, womanizer, draft dodger. If you were a boxing fan you would know there are many fighters better than Ali. Thanks for your time you can get back on his dick now.

Many fighters? Off the top of my head IMO only one or two boxers have come close to equalling or exceeding the body of work Ali has put together in his career, Robinson and maybe Armstrong. That's hardly "many fighters".:rolleyes:

But besides that statement of the obvious, where have guys like Sabbath, K-Dogg, Kid Achilles, Buddy, Butterfly, Stinger, etc., run off to?

I only ask because I don't see much in the way of recent posts from any of these guys in the history section here.

I see you've come out of retirement.:banana:

Cassius Clay is a poor man's Sugar Ray Robinson, period! Where do you think he got his moves??? and the shorts too??? RIP Sugar Ray

I wouldn't call Ali "The Greatest", that's a very broad spectrum. I'd call him "The Greatest Heavyweight".

Oh God! Why is there ALWAYS going to be one Tyson KoolAid drinker that puts Tyson, TRULY the most overated Heavyweight EVER, on a P4P list.

Poet

Oh God! Why is there ALWAYS going to be one Tyson KoolAid drinker that puts Tyson, TRULY the most overated Heavyweight EVER, on a P4P list.

Poet

If you watch his old fights as much as I do you would think differently.

If you watch his old fights as much as I do you would think differently.

Dude, I have all his fights. I was watching him on ESPN when you were still in diapers. Quick KOs over tomato cans are not going to impress me. By tomato cans I include most of the top Heavyweights of the time, easily the weakest in Heavyweight history. I would have been MORE impressed by him LOSING a close decision to Tim Witherspoon than him blowing out Trevor Berbick. He LOST to EVERY top notch fighter he fought.....by knockout. Hell, he lost to every fighter who stood up to him. No, watching his fights impresses me not in the least.

Poet

there will ALWAYS be an overrated fighter, you just gotta deal with it.

Dude..... Hell, he lost to every fighter who stood up to him. No, watching his fights impresses me not in the least.

Poet

** Duddess, Hell, Ali lost to every fighter who stood up to him, Joe Louis, Robinson, Hagler.....no wait, Marvin lost to a fighter who ran from him, not wishing to be impressed in the least by Marvin!

I see you've come out of retirement.:banana:

Yeah, but I only came back because you owed me a little something, Butterfly, which means I'm expecting you to give me one of these on here before too long;

:buttkick:

Dude, I have all his fights. I was watching him on ESPN when you were still in diapers. Quick KOs over tomato cans are not going to impress me. By tomato cans I include most of the top Heavyweights of the time, easily the weakest in Heavyweight history. I would have been MORE impressed by him LOSING a close decision to Tim Witherspoon than him blowing out Trevor Berbick. He LOST to EVERY top notch fighter he fought.....by knockout. Hell, he lost to every fighter who stood up to him. No, watching his fights impresses me not in the least.

Poet

Larry Holmes was top notch, Tyson destroyed him but years after Tyson had destroyed him he went the distance with Holyfield and later still beat a champ of the time.
That says to me Tyson was a great when he was in his prime.

Ali wasnt overrated, can anyone name 10 Hws from any era who could beat him???
No because he was an all time great.

Larry Holmes was top notch, Tyson destroyed him but years after Tyson had destroyed him he went the distance with Holyfield and later still beat a champ of the time.
That says to me Tyson was a great when he was in his prime.

Holmes was well past his prime at age 38 when Tyson fought him, wasn't in good shape and hadn't fought in two years. That fight doesn't say anything about Tyson any more than Tyson's fight with Lewis says anything about Lennox. You're also making the classic mistake of "well so and so knocked out so and so and and so and so didn't". Those comparisons are meaningless! The same Holyfield who went the distance with Holmes DESTROYED Tyson. People put too much stock in knockouts and hitting power, that's why big punchers are ALWAYS overrated. People LIKE watching them so they WANT them to be better than they really are.

Poet

Holmes was well past his prime at age 38 when Tyson fought him, wasn't in good shape and hadn't fought in two years. That fight doesn't say anything about Tyson any more than Tyson's fight with Lewis says anything about Lennox. You're also making the classic mistake of "well so and so knocked out so and so and and so and so didn't". Those comparisons are meaningless! The same Holyfield who went the distance with Holmes DESTROYED Tyson. People put too much stock in knockouts and hitting power, that's why big punchers are ALWAYS overrated. People LIKE watching them so they WANT them to be better than they really are.

Poet

Holyfield beat Tyson he didnt destroy him, destroy is what Tyson did to Spinks.
I still think that when Tyson was in his prime he was one the greatest HWs ever.

Larry Holmes was top notch, Tyson destroyed him but years after Tyson had destroyed him he went the distance with Holyfield and later still beat a champ of the time.
That says to me Tyson was a great when he was in his prime.

Holyfield beat Tyson he didnt destroy him, destroy is what Tyson did to Spinks.
I still think that when Tyson was in his prime he was one the greatest HWs ever.

Your homework assignment is to rewatch rounds 10 and 11 of the Holyfield fight and THEN tell me Holyfield didn't destroy him. Tyson's chicken dance speaks volumes. If he could have talked he no doubt would have been saying "please Mr. Holyfield, don't hurt me anymore".

Poet

Your homework assignment is to rewatch rounds 10 and 11 of the Holyfield fight and THEN tell me Holyfield didn't destroy him. Tyson's chicken dance speaks volumes. If he could have talked he no doubt would have been saying "please Mr. Holyfield, don't hurt me anymore".

Poet

He beats him up yeah but Tyson was still a great IMO when he was in his prime.

** Duddess, Hell, Ali lost to every fighter who stood up to him, Joe Louis, Robinson, Hagler.....no wait, Marvin lost to a fighter who ran from him, not wishing to be impressed in the least by Marvin!

Your post made no sense. Ali avenged the losses to Frazier and Norton and Spinks. The Frazier and Norton fights were close, hardly making the case that Ali folded because he was stood up to and he was out of shape for the Spinks fight and simply got outworked. What does Louis and Robinson got to do with it? Hagler was old and slow when he lost to Leonard. If you're going to make comparisons at least make comparisons that make some semblance of sense! I don't know if the Tyson KoolAid is slowing your thinking but I would recommend laying off the stuff until sanity is restored.

Poet

Dude, I have all his fights. I was watching him on ESPN when you were still in diapers. Quick KOs over tomato cans are not going to impress me. By tomato cans I include most of the top Heavyweights of the time, easily the weakest in Heavyweight history. I would have been MORE impressed by him LOSING a close decision to Tim Witherspoon than him blowing out Trevor Berbick. He LOST to EVERY top notch fighter he fought.....by knockout. Hell, he lost to every fighter who stood up to him. No, watching his fights impresses me not in the least.

Poet

If you think he's overrated or whatever, atleast be more open minded instead of making yourself look like a stereo type 'hater'. The fact that you don't give any kind of credit whatsoever shows you should not be taken seriously.

Keep it moving people, nothing to see here. Don't mind this one:loser:

I'm unsure if Holmes would've gotten stopped by Tyson if his arm didn't get stuck in the rope when throwing the uppercut. Holmes had a great chin and recovered quickly. If Holmes started to come back, who knows what Tyson would've done, maybe he would've crumbled or maybe he would've fought back again.

Your post made no sense.
Poet

** Your post made no sense.
Your post made you dense
and gave you a lisp
with some curls and a wisp
and no rythm or rhyme,
but plenty of smoke
to make a big joke
and have a swill time.
noNsense!

If you think he's overrated or whatever, atleast be more open minded instead of making yourself look like a stereo type 'hater'. The fact that you don't give any kind of credit whatsoever shows you should not be taken seriously.

Keep it moving people, nothing to see here. Don't mind this one:loser:

I believe my original point was NOT whether he should be given credit or not but whether he should make a p4p all-time greatest list. BIG difference. I believe Tyson is a NEAR great Heavyweight who COULD have been an all-time great but wasn't. That's hardly chopped liver. But using his quick knockouts over third-rate opposition as evidence of his "greatness" is self-defeating. People are NOT likely to give credence to your valid points when you start off with evidence something so laughable. As to my original point, while people can honestly debate whether Tyson was an all-time great at Heavyweight, NOBODY but a certified Tyson KoolAid drinker could believe he belongs on ANY p4p list.

Poet

** Your post made no sense.
Your post made you dense
and gave you a lisp
with some curls and a wisp
and no rythm or rhyme,
but plenty of smoke
to make a big joke
and have a swill time.
noNsense!


Dude, whatever. Please refrain from posting until you have achieved literacy and save the lymrics for your local bathroom wall.

Poet

the title is vacant I am afraid. No eliminator tournament has be organised so I am hoping you can beat off the pretenders.

there should be no tournaments, I'm clearly the chmp around here, I have the most boxing than anyone one this site. Speakng of pretenders, would someone please bea off that pretender ceboxer15. the guy is a ****ing dumbass, who thinks he knows boxing when he doesn't. I hope he's not a top 10 contencer for this title, becuase he doesn't know **** about boxing. What kind of an moron thinks Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest of all time? that's a laugh.

in regards to the title of the threa, I couldn't agree more. Ali is not only one of the worst heavyweights ever, but one of the worst fighters ever. His chicn was awful, he couldn't even take a punch from soft hitting Chuck Wepner. How does that make him great?

Dude, whatever. Please refrain from posting until you have achieved literacy and save the lymrics for your local bathroom wall.Poet

** Done. Poet is now featured over my lavvy. Excellent suggestion for products of digestion!

Very overrated. Made his name by nearly getting knocked out with one punch by 175 pound Henry Cooper, beating an ancient, undertrained Liston, and then winning a rematch where Liston took a dive. Defended his title against bad back Patterson, the human punching bag George Chuvalo, 35 year old ex lightheavyweight Zora Folley, the big bum Ernie Terrell, etc.

Came back and got thoroughly beaten 11-4 in rounds by Joe Frazier (blind in one eye, diabetes, hypertension). Was cut to ribbons by light heavy Bob Foster and was being outboxed by grandpa Patterson. Lost to Kenny "Chinny" Norton twice. Got a gift decision in the clinching snoozefest rematch with fat, shot Joe Frazier. Beat the overrated wild swinging caveman George Foreman who struggled with anybody who could even box a little. Was outboxed by Joe "I'm just glad to be here" Bugner. Was nearly beat by crude Ron Lyle. Floored by the longshoreman Chuck Wepner. Nearly killed by completely shot Frazier. Lost to Norton again. Fought bums like Evangelista and Jimmy Young (another robbery). Lost to amateur Leon Spinks. Battered by Holmes and Berbick.

Very overrated. Made his name by nearly getting knocked out with one punch by 175 pound Henry Cooper, beating an ancient, undertrained Liston, and then winning a rematch where Liston took a dive. Defended his title against bad back Patterson, the human punching bag George Chuvalo, 35 year old ex lightheavyweight Zora Folley, the big bum Ernie Terrell, etc.

Came back and got thoroughly beaten 11-4 in rounds by Joe Frazier (blind in one eye, diabetes, hypertension). Was cut to ribbons by light heavy Bob Foster and was being outboxed by grandpa Patterson. Lost to Kenny "Chinny" Norton twice. Got a gift decision in the clinching snoozefest rematch with fat, shot Joe Frazier. Beat the overrated wild swinging caveman George Foreman who struggled with anybody who could even box a little. Was outboxed by Joe "I'm just glad to be here" Bugner. Was nearly beat by crude Ron Lyle. Floored by the longshoreman Chuck Wepner. Nearly killed by completely shot Frazier. Lost to Norton again. Fought bums like Evangelista and Jimmy Young (another robbery). Lost to amateur Leon Spinks. Battered by Holmes and Berbick.


One question: Are you smoking crack? Maybe dropping acid? No wait! You're an escapee from an insane asylum!

Poet

Muhammad Ali IS WAS & ALWAYS WILL BE

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE GREATEST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:boxing: :boxing: :hail: :spank:

aLI bUILT nAME uP tO tHE gREATEST, hE hYPED hIS fANS uP, hE bUILT uP A rEPUTATION AS THE gREATEST yET hE lOST tO gUYS tHAT WERENT THE gREATEST lIKE lEON sPINKS,jOE fRAZIER, ,kEN nORTON ,lARRY hOLMES, AND OTHERS THAT IS TOO MUCH LOSING FOR THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME, i cONSIDER HIM THE GREATEST TALKER OF ALL TIME, HE WAS A TRULY CHARISMATIC SHOWMAN bUT hE aLSO dID SO mUCH pOLITICAL tHINGS THAT MADE PEOPLE oVERATE THIS gUYS CAREER. dONT fORGET , tHIS gUY WAS ALSO ON t.v ALOT,mORE pEOPLE OVERATE gUYS fROM THE PAST, eSPECIALLY IF THE FIGHT ANNOUNCER IS ALIS FRIEND AND HE TOO CALLS aLI THE gREATEST, pEOPLE WILL HEAR THIS gREATEST cRAP FOR aLI SO MUCH THAT THEY TOO WILL WANNA bELIEVE THEIR cHARISMATIC bOXING pOLITICAL iCON IS THE gREATEST, rEGARDLESS OF THE fACT hE lOST tOO mANY fIGHTS cOMPARED tO oTHER gREAT fIGHTERS, mANY mANY gREAT fIGHTERS

I think it all stems from a simple fact. Ali transcended his sport. It doesn't in my mind diminish the accomplishments of other great fighters but at the end they remain just that, great fighters. He became more and you just can't deny that.

Anyway that's my opinion.

Ali is overated, great heavyweight no doubt but not nearly the freakishly great boxer historians have made him out to be. Hell, Holyfield in his prime would have taken this guy in hard fought 12 round TKO. Go ahead, let the flaming begin.

And BTW, to the guy who said Ali was a great human being outside the ring- what the hell have you been smoking!?

Man.. I completely agree that a prime Holyfield beats Ali...take out all other preconcieved notions...then watch films of them both...If you really know boxing there is no doubt who the better fighter is...well said..

Ali is overated, great heavyweight no doubt but not nearly the freakishly great boxer historians have made him out to be. Hell, Holyfield in his prime would have taken this guy in hard fought 12 round TKO. Go ahead, let the flaming begin.

And BTW, to the guy who said Ali was a great human being outside the ring- what the hell have you been smoking!?

Man.. I completely agree that a prime Holyfield beats Ali...take out all other preconcieved notions...then watch films of them both...If you really know boxing there is no doubt who the better fighter is...well said..

Okay. Please let me know when you two are off the drugs and sober. At that point an INTELLIGENT conversation might be able to take place.

Poet

"Okay. Please let me know when you two are off the drugs and sober. At that point an INTELLIGENT conversation might be able to take place."



I've got a better one- I'd love for you to explain to me why Holyfield is so inferior to Ali that the mere suggestion Evander would take him qualifies as me being both "on drugs" and and unINTELLIGENT.

"Okay. Please let me know when you two are off the drugs and sober. At that point an INTELLIGENT conversation might be able to take place."



I've got a better one- I'd love for you to explain to me why Holyfield is so inferior to Ali that the mere suggestion Evander would take him qualifies as me being both "on drugs" and and unINTELLIGENT.


What sets Ali apart from EVERY other Heavyweight is his speed: Footspeed and handspeed. They has never been any other like him in terms of speed. Then there's his chin. I've seen very few take a punch better. It's the same with body punches: I've seen few fighters absorb punishment better. The thing is, in his prime, nobody knew about his chin because he rarely got hit flush. It was only after his reflexes were lost to age that it came out.

Holyfield, as great a fighter as he was, had no where near Ali's hand and foot speed. And that's really what it comes down to: Speed. It's what set Ali apart frome everyother Heavyweight.

Poet

Lots of ordinary fighters gave Ali hell. Holyfield certainly would

I'm talking Ali in his prime. From Liston up to the exhile. During that period he was untouchable even by a great fighter like Holyfield in HIS prime. People seem to think the Ali who fought Frazier and Foreman and struggled against Norton was prime Ali: It wasn't. When he came back after three years in the wilderness his contemporaries all noted he had noticeably lost speed and his reflexes wheren't as sharp, ie. he was passed his prime. If you want to see prime Ali watch his fights against Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell, and Jimmy Ellis. As great as I believe Evander is, a prime Holyfield is no match for a prime Ali.

Poet

Never underestimate a great counterpuncher, add to that Holyfield's unmatchable heart and this fight would be one entertaining war! I stick to my drug induced, unintelligent prediction that Holy wins by 12 round TKO.

I'm talking Ali in his prime. From Liston up to the exhile. During that period he was untouchable even by a great fighter like Holyfield in HIS prime. People seem to think the Ali who fought Frazier and Foreman and struggled against Norton was prime Ali: It wasn't. When he came back after three years in the wilderness his contemporaries all noted he had noticeably lost speed and his reflexes wheren't as sharp, ie. he was passed his prime. If you want to see prime Ali watch his fights against Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell, and Jimmy Ellis. As great as I believe Evander is, a prime Holyfield is no match for a prime Ali.
Poet

** Poet aint a boxing poet and he don't know it.

Ellis was post exile, post Frazier 1, though he did dispose of Ellis fairly easy.

Bringing up Williams is a joke. Terrell gave Ali a hard fight in spite of recieving death threats and having a gang of NOI members barg into his hotel room the night before the fight and rearrange all his furniture and leave in an obvious show of intimidation.

Though I think a prime Ali could handle Holy, he is hardly invincible. Mildenberger and Chuvalo gave him tough fights and Holy is much better than them.

** Poet aint a boxing poet and he don't know it.

Ellis was post exile, post Frazier 1, though he did dispose of Ellis fairly easy.

Bringing up Williams is a joke. Terrell gave Ali a hard fight in spite of recieving death threats and having a gang of NOI members barg into his hotel room the night before the fight and rearrange all his furniture and leave in an obvious show of intimidation.

Though I think a prime Ali could handle Holy, he is hardly invincible. Mildenberger and Chuvalo gave him tough fights and Holy is much better than them.

Thank you. Ali is beatable by any decent heavyweight, pre-exile Ali even more so than post exile.

Speed, and that's all? What about styles, and everything else that comes into play.
I definitely agree, Ali is not unbeatable at all. What people fail to understand, is that Ali was great at adapting, he would show who's the better fighter in a trilogy, not beat anyone ever lived and be done with it. Sometimes you can't measure greatness by looking at 1 fight. Frazier beat Ali, what if they didn't have a rematch? Would that have meant Frazier was the better fighter? No, it just means Ali could be beaten, but not twice or most of the time. So, i personally think many fighters, like kayjay mentioned, would have beaten Ali in a fight. But what makes Ali so great, was his ability to come back from defeat, adapt and win the majority of a trilogy. That's what made him one of the greatest. Norton, Louis, Marciano, Holmes and maybe people like Holyfield, Tyson Lewis could have all beaten Ali, but i'd bet my money on Ali winning most of 3 fights(Maybe not against all of them though)

So this is how Ali is overrated imo. People think he couldn't be beaten AT ALL.

** Poet aint a boxing poet and he don't know it.

Ellis was post exile, post Frazier 1, though he did dispose of Ellis fairly easy.

Bringing up Williams is a joke. Terrell gave Ali a hard fight in spite of recieving death threats and having a gang of NOI members barg into his hotel room the night before the fight and rearrange all his furniture and leave in an obvious show of intimidation.

Though I think a prime Ali could handle Holy, he is hardly invincible. Mildenberger and Chuvalo gave him tough fights and Holy is much better than them.

You better check the record, Ellis was NOT post exhile. It was after he was stripped by the New York Boxing Commission but NOT after the exhile. A trip to BoxRec.com is in order for you I think. Cleveland Willims was considered to be an EXTREMELY dangerous fighter, so much so that Patterson avoided him. Terrell just flat got the **** beat out of him. You might want to try WATCHING that fight. Mildenberger was the first southpaw Ali faced and he didn't quite know how to fight him. Why are people slagging Chuvalo? He gave pretty much EVERYONE he faced a hard time. You couldn't hurt him and he just kept coming. Frazier had trouble with him too, he was a punishment sponge who made all his opponents look bad.

Poet

You better check the record, Ellis was NOT post exhile.
Poet

** You'd better check your shorts. You done laid a BIG one.

The Ellis fight took place in 71 after Frazier. Ali didn't box from his March 67 bout with Folley until his Oct 70 bout against Quarry, then Bonavena, then Frazier, and THEN Ellis.

Poet leads with his face,
No need for any mace,
Just a good whippin'
with frilly lace.

I stand corrected on the date of the Ellis fight. However I notice you carefully avoided the other points made in that post.

Poet

Seeing as how Ali really only fought three times in his alleged "prime," certainly not against the greatest fighters around, it's difficult to say what he was really capable of.

What's rediculous is the way people forgive him for losses suffered after exile, dismissing them because of the layoff. What's more rediculous is how people judge his "prime" as a time when he wasn't fighting. His physical prime may have been in 1967, but his boxing prime was 1971-1975. That's when he fought his biggest fights, that's when he was smarter in the ring than ever before, and that's the Ali that Dundee has said (though I'm sure he's contradicted himself at some point) he would take over any before or after.

What's funny is the crazy amounts of hipocratic commentary that surrounds Ali. I'll give an example I've given before for the kiddies:

Muhammad Ali had 3 years off. He came back and had 18 rounds of tough competition from Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena in the course of six months; two solid contenders from that time. These awkward, pressuring opponents were chosen as opponents to better prepare Ali for Frazier. He then fought, and lost, to Joe Frazier before getting back on the title track. Everyone forgives him for this loss.

Mike Tyson had 4 years off. He came back and had 9 rounds of competition from four complete jokers, spread out over the course of a year. These fighters in no way shape or form prepared him (nor did his worthless corner) for a showdown with the tough, durable, Evander Holyfield. Mike Tyson then fought, and lost, to Holyfield. Everybody uses this as a "see, Mike Tyson was overrated" case-and-point.

Given the circumstances surrounding their respective lives, Mike Tyson should be permitted far more excuses than is Muhammad Ali. Given their places in society, however, and people's hard-ons for the nostalgic; as well as their pre-exile careers and personal lives aside, they will forever erase Ali's losses from their minds, while exemplifying those of someone like Mike Tyson.

Does this mean that Ali is overrated? Yes...and no.

Muhammad Ali is certainly one of the top 3 heavyweights of all-time, probably behind only Joe Louis, if anyone. He was never invincible, he was never simply "too fast" for any of the other greats in history, nor would he breeze through anyone at the top of the list.

When it comes down to it, it's two men, in a ring with gloves, time, and mortal bodies.

His physical prime may have been in 1967, but his boxing prime was 1971-1975. That's when he fought his biggest fights, that's when he was smarter in the ring than ever before

First off, is it at all possible for you to weigh in on a subject without sounding like a sarcastic prick?

Second, Ali's prime was NOT 1971-1975. You need to read the contempary accounts, practically everyone who saw him said he wasn't the same fighter. His speed had erroded. Physical prime IS boxing prime; boxing is above all a physical sport. Ali's prime was from 1965-1967 when he fought not three times but nine times with wins over Folley, Williams, Patterson, Terrell, and Chuvalo. All good fighters, all top contenders, all well regarded at the time. If you don't believe his "physical" prime is the same as his "boxing" prime than it would seem to me you don't believe speed is a major factor in boxing. Isn't speed what sets Floyd Mayweather apart from the competition?

Thirdly, by the standard you're setting for Ali's prime ie. all his "big" fights against "good" opponents were after 1971, then Joe Louis' prime was after WWII since after all that was when he fought Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Lee Savold, and Rocky Marciano. Afterall, those were all his "good" opponents wheren't they? Now obviously I don't for a minute believe that was Louis' prime. Nor do I believe that those were all his "good" opponents.
It's REAL easy for someone to say "oh, Zora Folley was crap" or "Max Baer couldn't beat my Grandmother". The contemporaries of those fighters had a very different view them.

Poet

Joe Frazier was blind in one eye, had diabetes, and hypertension. Yet he still battered Ali 11-4 in rounds. I don't even want to imagine how badly a healthy Joe Frazier would have beaten Ali.

Joe Frazier was blind in one eye, had diabetes, and hypertension. Yet he still battered Ali 11-4 in rounds. I don't even want to imagine how badly a healthy Joe Frazier would have beaten Ali.

You need to read Joe's biography again. While I don't know when he developed diabetes, I DO know he wasn't blind in one eye until AFTER the Manila fight. That's why he went into the second Foreman fight with a contact in the eye, with disasterous results. BTW I HAVE read Fraziers autobiography, I happen to be a Joe Frazier fan. Please don't tarnish Joe's accomplishment in the first Ali fight by making outrageous claims. Now! If you want to talk Frazier lets! LOL!

PS. I have a number of Frazier's fights on video file.

Poet

Physical prime IS boxing prime;
Poet

** Nope. I keep telling you to change your shorts. It's embarassing to see you in that state.

Prime is a combination of mental and physical for a sport. In boxing prime is also style dependent. A fighter relying on speed will not have a long career for example.

Jersey Joe, Archie Moore, and Oleg Maskaev are some fighters who did better after the typical athletic physical prime of 21-29. Tyson deteriorated severely after age 24 from his previous state.

Now, change those shorts so they will readmit you into school.

Okay, I get it. You're just a **** talking retard who isn't worth my effort. Please try again when you know what the f*** you're talking about. Obviously you either a. know absolutely nothing about boxing, or b. know absolutely nothing about boxing, or c. you're just an ignorant moron.

Poet

Ali is overated, great heavyweight no doubt but not nearly the freakishly great boxer historians have made him out to be. Hell, Holyfield in his prime would have taken this guy in hard fought 12 round TKO. Go ahead, let the flaming begin.

And BTW, to the guy who said Ali was a great human being outside the ring- what the hell have you been smoking!?

Thank You, Believe This

Ali is NOT overrated!!!!!

Ali is NOT overrated!!!!!
Compelling arguement. I'm gonna say......yes he is.

Poet seems to have the ability to attack a person's character only, and not the subject matter of the post.

You are also the only person to find my posts sarcastic, and since you know absolutely nothing about me, it would be wise to be more mindful of who you start flinging insults towards (especially without reasonable cause).

Believe it or not, Ali's best years were after his physical gifts were gone, and he had to start thinking. That's when he showed what he was really made of. Ali himself had stated, years later, that he would have been beaten worse by Joe Frazier in 1967 than he was in their fights after the layoff.

I also noted how you carefully avoided any points of relevence in my post, hand-selecting one or two lines to attack, out of context. Coincidentally, you used the same double-standard in defense of your own error regarding the Ellis fight. The difference here is, I'm right.

Compelling arguement. I'm gonna say......yes he is.

hahaha!!! i cnt be bovered to justify my reason....

I really don't care who you are or who you THINK you are: If you're going to act like a snot I'm going to treat you like one.

You started off in your first post rediculing people who hold different views than your own, not to mention calling them hypocrits. You then went on to sarcastically refer to them as the "kiddies" as if their intelligence is somehow beneath you and saying they had "hard-ons" for the nostalgic.

Now, you could have kept this discussion within the realm of the pleasant if you hadn't opened your gob and started the sarcastic trash talk so you have lot of nerve *****ing about personal attacks now. Don't throw down the gauntlet if you don't want to get slapped with it.

Now I'm finished with you: Permanently. Consider yourself on ignore, to me you now a non-person.

Poet

Ali isnt overrated, in his prime I'd pick him to beat any other HW in their prime.
Even after his prime theres not many would be able to beat him.

1. My first post was actually a comparison between the heavyweights of today, and those of yesteryear. There wasn't even a comment about anyone on this site. Your first post, however, included telling someone that they drank some kind of koolAid for having a favored opinion towards Mike Tyson. Observe:

Oh God! Why is there ALWAYS going to be one Tyson KoolAid drinker that puts Tyson, TRULY the most overated Heavyweight EVER, on a P4P list.

Poet


2. Using the term "kiddies" was a way of referencing the telling of a story around a campfire that I've told a hundred times, but there are probably some people who have never heard it. Seeing as how new people attend camp every year, with a few regulars, this makes perfect sense.

3. You have repeatedly accused me of personally attacking someone, despite the fact that your posts look like the one mentioned above, and:
I don't know if the Tyson KoolAid is slowing your thinking but I would recommend laying off the stuff until sanity is restored.

Poet

Oh yeah, and:
People are NOT likely to give credence to your valid points when you start off with evidence something so laughable. As to my original point, while people can honestly debate whether Tyson was an all-time great at Heavyweight, NOBODY but a certified Tyson KoolAid drinker could believe he belongs on ANY p4p list.

Poet

Let's not forget:
Dude, whatever. Please refrain from posting until you have achieved literacy and save the lymrics for your local bathroom wall.

Poet

Of course, there's always:
One question: Are you smoking crack? Maybe dropping acid? No wait! You're an escapee from an insane asylum!

Poet

Oh! Here's a good one:
Okay. Please let me know when you two are off the drugs and sober. At that point an INTELLIGENT conversation might be able to take place.

Poet

After people cite statistics, you come up with:
First off, is it at all possible for you to weigh in on a subject without sounding like a sarcastic prick?


For the sake of space, I'll close with:
Okay, I get it. You're just a **** talking retard who isn't worth my effort. Please try again when you know what the f*** you're talking about. Obviously you either a. know absolutely nothing about boxing, or b. know absolutely nothing about boxing, or c. you're just an ignorant moron.

Poet

If anyone else is watching this back-and-forth debacle, they will clearly see, as I have, that you are extra-stupid. Oops, I finally attacked someone personally. :owned:

Ahem. First off practically all the quotes you're giving came from a dispute I was having with LondonRingRules, a 24 Karet ******* who was doing his level best to piss me off. Your nose has no business involved in it. Secondly you talk about how you named no names in your initial post. However you FAIL to mention that I didn't either. No names are mentioned in my initial KoolAid drinker post. Now which is it? Are you saying hypocritically that YOU can say things so long as you don't mention names but I can't? Hmm? Thirdly you protest your innocence at saying anything sarcastic or condescending:

"What's rediculous is the way people forgive him for losses suffered after exile, dismissing them because of the layoff. What's more rediculous is how people judge his "prime" as a time when he wasn't fighting. His physical prime may have been in 1967, but his boxing prime was 1971-1975. That's when he fought his biggest fights, that's when he was smarter in the ring than ever before, and that's the Ali that Dundee has said (though I'm sure he's contradicted himself at some point) he would take over any before or after.

What's funny is the crazy amounts of hipocratic commentary that surrounds Ali. I'll give an example I've given before for the kiddies"

Hmm. That sounds pretty sarcastic and condescending to me. People who think differently than you do are "rediculous" and "hipocratical". No matter how you try and softsoap it "kiddies" is condescending. Apparently you think those who hold different views to your own are beneath you and must be educated like "kiddies.

Rave all you want, but you'll have to do it to LondonRingRules in my ignore bin. Goodbye! You are the weakest link "flush", another turd gone!

Poet

Ali is NOT overrated!!!!!

Thank You, I know, hes way past overated, Hes a great fighter but not even close to being the greatest, hes rated over the overated mark, its hilarious

Can someone name 10 HWs from any era who could beat a prime Ali????
No you cant, that shows when he was in his prime he was the greatest.

Can someone name 10 HWs from any era who could beat a prime Ali????No you cant, that shows when he was in his prime he was the greatest.

Who COULD beat Ali? Have you been reading? Prime Ali lost several fights and had some struggles with mediocre guys. There are more than ten who have a chance.

Prime Ali to me is sixties Ali, the seventies Ali did win some dodgy decisions but who are these people who could beat him??

Can someone name 10 HWs from any era who could beat a prime Ali????
No you cant, that shows when he was in his prime he was the greatest.

Calm down buddy.He's not God.

Calm down buddy.He's not God.

Neither's Tyson LOL!

Poet

Calm down buddy.He's not God.

LOL I know he's not, he's not my fave HW but I dont see how people say hes overrated, yeah he got some decisions he shouldnt have in the 70s but in the 60s I'd pick him to beat anyone. The toughest fight for prime Ali would be a prime Marciano IMO.

He's overrated because people think he would not lose a fight to anyone. But he would lose fights to some greats, but he would most likely win most of the fight in a trilogy.
Anyone that is portrayed as invincible is overrated.

Hmm. That sounds pretty sarcastic and condescending to me. People who think differently than you do are "rediculous" and "hipocratical". No matter how you try and softsoap it "kiddies" is condescending. Apparently you think those who hold different views to your own are beneath you and must be educated like "kiddies.

Rave all you want, but you'll have to do it to LondonRingRules in my ignore bin. Goodbye! You are the weakest link "flush", another turd gone!

Poet

"Rediculous" was used to describe the line of thinking for forgiving every loss in Ali's career. This in no way, shape, or form denotes anything that anyone feels about Ali's greatness. This also has nothing to do about an individual who posts such things.

"Hypocritical" (pardon earlier spelling), was used to describe something hypocritical. For example: Forgiving one fighter for something that another fighter is condemned for. That, by definition, is hypocrasy.

I also get a kick out of your plug-your-ears-and-run-like-a-little-kid comments at the end of every post. Such a wimp. Once more, the conclusion weighs in: You lose by a KO, and are still extra-stupid.

Brassangel

Back on topic:
Anyone viewed as unbeatable is overrated. Muhammad Ali is clearly one of the two best, if not the best heavyweight of all-time. Every single fighter in the top 10, maybe even top 15 could give him trouble given the style of each opponent, ring sizes, and rules implemented (ie: newer ref's would never allow him to hold his opponents heads under his armpit; at the same time, fights are stopped way sooner as a result of cuts, etc.).

Guys like Frazier, Marciano, Tyson, and Dempsey would likely be difficult for Ali, as they brought pressure and power. They also threw combinations, and the latter two (Tyson in particular), had excellent hand speed and reaction quickness/explosiveness. Cutting off the ring and ripping into his ribs would force him to stand still once and a while, and the faster punchers could take advantage of that, throwing combinations from multiple angles; something that Foreman, and to some extent, Frazier, failed to do when given the chance.

Counterpunchers, like Lewis, Holyfield, etc., were always good at timing the jab, which could force Ali to come up with a different game plan (which I'm sure he would). Even so, these would still be tough opponents for Ali.

Joe Louis, the other #1 or #2 heavyweight, would simply be too slow and flat-footed in my opinion to have an impact on Ali's swiftness. He was laser accurate, however, and his lack of foot movement was actually a product of his own choosing. His hand speed was decent, and he could go the distance if he had to.

I'll breathe and come back later.

Ahem. First off practically all the quotes you're giving came from a dispute I was having with LondonRingRules, a 24 Karet ******* who was doing his level best to piss me off. Your nose has no business involved in it. Secondly you talk about how you named no names in your initial post. However you FAIL to mention that I didn't either. No names are mentioned in my initial KoolAid drinker post. Now which is it? Are you saying hypocritically that YOU can say things so long as you don't mention names but I can't? Hmm? Thirdly you protest your innocence at saying anything sarcastic or condescending:

"What's rediculous is the way people forgive him for losses suffered after exile, dismissing them because of the layoff. What's more rediculous is how people judge his "prime" as a time when he wasn't fighting. His physical prime may have been in 1967, but his boxing prime was 1971-1975. That's when he fought his biggest fights, that's when he was smarter in the ring than ever before, and that's the Ali that Dundee has said (though I'm sure he's contradicted himself at some point) he would take over any before or after.

What's funny is

** What's funny is watching you fill up your shorts in public, thankfully in virtual space rather than the nasty mess of real space.

Ali of 71-75, eh?

OK, put up a scrappy fight against Frazier, but really bad ringmanship. Clowning, underpowered, and knocked down twice. Yeah, TWICE.

Did a number on Ellis, good performance.

Blin? Distant cousin to Peter McNeeley?

Mathis. Ugly. Watch the fight. UGLY!

Mac Foster. Never saw the fight, but he won. Thing is, Quarry KOed Mac.

Chuvalo. He never looked good against Chuvalo, he just looked more talented and younger and took his shots like a man.

Quarry. He did a workmanlike job on Quarry.

Lewis. Lewis put up a heck of a scrap. Ali actually had to fight, but he looked pretty good for a change.

Patterson. Ok he showed he was better than an older Patterson.

Bob Foster. Cut Ali up with his jab before falling. A decent win.

Bugner. Closer fight than the cards. Not a wide win in the ring.

Norton 1. Busted jaw and shut out.

Norton 2. Better showing, but Ali still lost decisively regardless of the cards.

Lubbers. McNeeley's retarded uncle. At least it wasn't a title bout, but it sure went the distance. Shame, shame, shame as Gomer used to say.

Frazier 2. Lethargic with mediocre performances by both. Ali lost best to best when it counted.

Foreman. Showed all time heart, but took an all time pounding as well. His best win in a fight he looked terrible in.

Wepner. 15 rds against one of the most notorious bleeders in history? Maybe if he'd thrown a punch he might've had an easier time instead of whining to the ref about the 200 rabbit punches Wepner landed.

Lyle. Shut out on the cards by Lyle? Even Cosel thought the fight was stopped prematurely. Lyle was just playing possum. Pretty fishy to lots of people.

Bugner again. Never saw the fight, but Ali win.

Frazier 3. Frazier never forgave Futch for stopping the fight. Ali was busy quitting in his corner when Futch stopped it.

Sorry, but other than Frazier 1 fight that he was overpowered and out hustled in, the Ellis fight that he dominated, the rest of the fights are only either decent wins or dodgy decisions with a few fights against really bad tomato cans.

No wonder you're the Don't Know It Poet. You just damned Ali with faint praise!

I wonder if Brass******* and LondonSheep****er realise I have them on ignore LOL! I don't think it's a stretch to presume that those two mental midgets are running their gobs about me since their only reason to be on this thread seems to be to slag off on me! Clearly they need lives. See, unlike them, I don't get off on flame posts. That may be what THEY consider fun but I don't. If I light into someone it's because they've insulted me and pissed me off; but even then there are limits to how much of that I'm willing to do. Eventually I just shut them up.....permanently. Hence the ignore list, where I'm sure they'll have fun flaming each other! Then again, maybe they ARE simply flaming, and no doubt will have scads of fun buttslamming each other in my bin. Have a "nice" life dick weeds!

Poet

Neither's Tyson LOL!

Poet

Never said he was. So you can take your Tyson hate else where. Its clear you dont favor Tyson like alot of ppl do. You dont need to always drop hints. Neither will I be pissed if I said you didnt like him. Tyson isnt my Dad,nor is he my good friend.He's just a fighter that I take alot of my style from. Get over yourself.:wave:

LOL I know he's not, he's not my fave HW but I dont see how people say hes overrated, yeah he got some decisions he shouldnt have in the 70s but in the 60s I'd pick him to beat anyone. The toughest fight for prime Ali would be a prime Marciano IMO.

He's not overrated. All ppl dont like to agree on the same things so they just say **** to draw attention.

Never said he was. So you can take your Tyson hate else where. Its clear you dont favor Tyson like alot of ppl do. You dont need to always drop hints. Neither will I be pissed if I said you didnt like him. Tyson isnt my Dad,nor is he my good friend.He's just a fighter that I take alot of my style from. Get over yourself.:wave:

Actually I DON'T hate Tyson, it's his fans I dislike. Notice I say dislike and not hate. I dislike Tyson's fans because I've found them to be the most consistantly obnoxious boxing fans out there (not to mention delusional). If you bestow an honor upon Tyson that's anything less than fawning adoration and proclamations of him being the greatest ever they act like you've spit in his face. Now maybe YOU personally aren't a KoolAid drinker like they are, but that's why I have a sour stomach where Tyson fans are concerned. Tyson fans aren't the only one of course. No disrespect to the Rock but Marciano's fans are nearly as obnoxious. So, it isn't anything personal towards you.

Poet

Actually I DON'T hate Tyson, it's his fans I dislike. Notice I say dislike and not hate. I dislike Tyson's fans because I've found them to be the most consistantly obnoxious boxing fans out there (not to mention delusional). If you bestow an honor upon Tyson that's anything less than fawning adoration and proclamations of him being the greatest ever they act like you've spit in his face. Now maybe YOU personally aren't a KoolAid drinker like they are, but that's why I have a sour stomach where Tyson fans are concerned. Tyson fans aren't the only one of course. No disrespect to the Rock but Marciano's fans are nearly as obnoxious. So, it isn't anything personal towards you.

Poet

Well you're barking up the wrong tree here man. Im probably the biggest Tyson fan on here. I even went to Catskills New york and worked out at the gym. But in no way am I a nuthugger. I dont let Tyson's mystic cloud my judgement. He's my favorite fighter.But is he the best ever?**** NO!!!

Never said he was. So you can take your Tyson hate else where. Its clear you dont favor Tyson like alot of ppl do. You dont need to always drop hints. Neither will I be pissed if I said you didnt like him. Tyson isnt my Dad,nor is he my good friend.He's just a fighter that I take alot of my style from. Get over yourself.:wave:

Well you're barking up the wrong tree here man. Im probably the biggest Tyson fan on here. I even went to Catskills New york and worked out at the gym. But in no way am I a nuthugger. I dont let Tyson's mystic cloud my judgement. He's my favorite fighter.But is he the best ever?**** NO!!!

You're a rare breed Versatile. You're a man I can respect.

He's my favorite fighter.But is he the best ever?**** NO!!!

The fact you can say that tells me volumes. You are NOT a KoolAid drinker. I have no problems with someone who's a fan but not one with blinders on. Bravo!

Poet

He's not overrated. All ppl dont like to agree on the same things so they just say **** to draw attention.

Good point mate, I rate Tyson highly and I've had debates where people are like "Tyson is ****,hes overrated" I say each to their own. Prime Tyson was exciting to watch thats why I rate the guy.
Prime Ali was a master at work,Ali in the 70s was involved in good fights.
Differing opinions are a good thing, it'd be a boring world if everyone thought the same.

Be careful when talking to Poet...when he is outsmarted, he will simply ignore you. There's a good chance he's got almost everybody at boxingscene on his ignore list.

Anyway, Ali was a master at work in the 60's. I feel as though we were truly robbed of his greatness, however, and in his pinnacle performance against Frazier (the closest we get to a best-versus-best), he was simply outhustled. Even so, if we are going to have "sour stomachs" toward a fighter or his fans, it's only fair to open up discussion about the cut glove used by Ali's dirty corner to save him from a knockout loss to Cooper. This makes it hard for me to believe how often he really "overcame" adversity to show true grit.

By the way, he's still one of my favorite fighters to watch.

Why is this thread still going, anyway? Yogi posted it as a joke to announce his return.

Ah, I see Brass******* is still weighing in. Probably *****ing and crying because I got his ass on my ignore list. What a sad little man, and I use the term "man" VERY loosely. ,,!,, Brass*******.

Poet

The only thing "loose" on here is your manhole, Poet.

Even so, if we are going to have "sour stomachs" toward a fighter or his fans, it's only fair to open up discussion about the cut glove used by Ali's dirty corner to save him from a knockout loss to Cooper.

The Cooper knckdown is slightly overrated. Ali would not have been stopped if not giving the extra time. Ali got up in 3 seconds and strongly walked back to his corner. Hardly someone on the brink of defeat.:rolleyes:

He was visibly wobbling. Even while in the corner his eyes were glossy. He stood up quickly because that's what he always did. It not only ensured that a ref wouldn't wave the fight off, but it also discouraged opponents who felt as though they put their opponent down hard.

I'm not saying that he absolutely would have lost, but given Poet's earlier claims, made in rant, it's only fair to point the finger the other way, covering both sides of the coin.

Ali is the greatest boxer and biggest figure in any sport in history..... Ali was fast as **** for being a heavyweight...not that that simple fact would make him the greatest but it did say alot about him....he wasnt the perfect boxer...but noone is...but he is the greatest boxer of all time....and those who try to argue to the contrary dont have a clue.........

He was visibly wobbling. Even while in the corner his eyes were glossy. He stood up quickly because that's what he always did. It not only ensured that a ref wouldn't wave the fight off, but it also discouraged opponents who felt as though they put their opponent down hard.

I'm not saying that he absolutely would have lost, but given Poet's earlier claims, made in rant, it's only fair to point the finger the other way, covering both sides of the coin.

No, he wasn't. I didnt see it. And if he stood up quickly whether he was trying to send a message or not, if he really was in as bad of shape as you say, he would have trouble getting up anyway. Seriously, what do you think would have happened if Clay didn't get the extra nine or so seconds? Do you think that he would walk right into a Henry left hook and be layed out cold? Or maybe the corner would stop the fight? Or what? I still see the same outcome that actually happened. Ali had amazing recuperative powers and he would have won the fight period.:fing02:

Funny how Yogi wasn't really trying to make 'ali is overrated' the topic of the thread, but it goes on anyway

We must always remember that half-blind, diabetes, hypertension Frazier easily beat Ali 11-4 in the FOTC. And average Norton beat him twice. There were several robberies involving Ali but I won't get into them.

We must always remember that half-blind, diabetes, hypertension Frazier easily beat Ali 11-4 in the FOTC. And average Norton beat him twice. There were several robberies involving Ali but I won't get into them.

Okay. I'm going to say this one last time so that even pea brain here can understand it.

Frazier.....did.....not.....lose.....sight.....in. ....one.....of.....his.....eyes.....
until.....his.....third.....fight.....with.....Ali

Is this Dick and Jane enough for you? Frazier had two good eyes in the FOTC. Furthermore you give no evidence that he had diabetes and hypertension at the time of the fight. He could very well have developed those later as well.

Apparently you're own who'll never let the facts stand in the way of attempting to discredit a fighter you don't like.

Poet

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Frazier developed cataracts before he even turned professional. ***got.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Frazier developed cataracts before he even turned professional. ***got.

Not according to Frazier's own auto-biography. And take the name calling to the Thunderdome.

Poet

We must always remember that half-blind, diabetes, hypertension Frazier easily beat Ali 11-4 in the FOTC. And average Norton beat him twice. There were several robberies involving Ali but I won't get into them.

This is why you were banned from East Side Forums.:fing02:

Not according to Frazier's own auto-biography. And take the name calling to the Thunderdome.

Poet

Actually, he is right on that issue. His doctor urged Frazier to go through surgury before he turned pro to save his eye, but Frazier decided not to jeopardize his boxing career so he let it be.

He decided not to jeopardize his boxing career and in turn, jeopardized his own abilities in the ring.

Also, in bad shape or not (during the exchange with Cooper), Ali was disciplined. He knew his own ability to recover. Obviously Cooper didn't land a KO punch the likes of Shavers, but it did scramble Ali's eggs a little bit. When they were "fixing" his glove in the corner, Ali's eyes were not set straight. If he would have immediately gotten back into the scuffle instead of being granted the break, he would have been a touch sloppy. Does that mean Cooper would have beaten him? Absolutely not. Does it show that there's a little myth to the mayhem? Definitely. Even so, this was simply the other side of a coin designed to showcase the hypocrasy which surrounds a man often given every excuse and praise over everyone else.

Just as a side note:

I've noticed that in Ali vs. Frazier II, Ali looked a lot more like his old self than he did in the other two fights. He danced for almost all of the 12 rounds, his punches were very snappy and accurate, and Frazier barely got anything done. He still cut off the ring at times, and worked the body, but he wasn't landing clean, bombastic hooks as he was in fights 1 and 3. While Joe was starting to decline following his fight with Foreman, I think that this very well could have been a more accurate portrayal of what may have happened had they fought in their prime.

The first fight is the most accurate portrayal. Ali tried to dance in round 5, but Frazier easily caught up to him and landed some good shots. Prime Frazier would have beaten the dancing Ali with relative ease.

Convenient how people use the second fight where Ali clinched the whole night and landed pitter patter punches as the fight that would have determined the outcome in their primes. Frazier didn't even swarm that night, Eddie Futch apparently had Frazier change his stance. He just stood there with his gloves up. The bobbing and weaving was key for Frazier to beat Ali.

Isn't it amazing how threads like these really bring the Ali haters out of the woodwork, kinda like roaches. It makes me want to spray this entire thread with D-Con (Kills 'em dead). Talk about ignorant *******s. They need to try hating on fighters actually deserving of it. Like Wlad Klitschko and Floyd Mayweather. What jackasses!

Poet

Frazier did look a little awkward in the 2nd fight compared to the first, and he was started to head on the down slope. My post was complimenting how Ali had visibly improved from their first meeting, as he had managed to shake off his post-layoff ring rust by that time. He had also not yet met with George Foreman, as did Frazier, which takes a lot out of a man. Ali also managed to dance for almost the entire fight. He only ever clinched when Joe got close to him. The last time I checked, that's a pretty good strategy against someone who has great game on the inside.

I guess what I was trying to say was this; Joe Frazier was at his best in the first fight. Ali was looser, more accurate, and more nimble in the 2nd fight. If you take the best of each fighter, it's still a whale of a fight, but I think it goes from being 8-6-1 Frazier (which any reasonable person scores the first fight, unless you're retarded), to 8-6-1 Ali. That swift, accurate edge he gains is difficult for Joe to overcome. Whenever Ali was able to flurry in any of the three fights, Joe simply got hit and usually had to walk into a clinch to regain the advantage.

Am I saying that Joe Frazier couldn't beat a prime Ali? No. It's certainly possible. Given how close all three fights were, however, even after Ali had lost his edge, I believe that Ali would take a close decision.

Oh yeah, staying on the topic of the thread's title: Ali was never invincible. :duh:

He decided not to jeopardize his boxing career and in turn, jeopardized his own abilities in the ring.

Also, in bad shape or not (during the exchange with Cooper), Ali was disciplined. He knew his own ability to recover. Obviously Cooper didn't land a KO punch the likes of Shavers, but it did scramble Ali's eggs a little bit. When they were "fixing" his glove in the corner, Ali's eyes were not set straight. If he would have immediately gotten back into the scuffle instead of being granted the break, he would have been a touch sloppy. Does that mean Cooper would have beaten him? Absolutely not. Does it show that there's a little myth to the mayhem? Definitely. Even so, this was simply the other side of a coin designed to showcase the hypocrasy which surrounds a man often given every excuse and praise over everyone else.

Just as a side note:

I've noticed that in Ali vs. Frazier II, Ali looked a lot more like his old self than he did in the other two fights. He danced for almost all of the 12 rounds, his punches were very snappy and accurate, and Frazier barely got anything done. He still cut off the ring at times, and worked the body, but he wasn't landing clean, bombastic hooks as he was in fights 1 and 3. While Joe was starting to decline following his fight with Foreman, I think that this very well could have been a more accurate portrayal of what may have happened had they fought in their prime.

Clay definetely was in some trouble, I'm not doubting that, but some people are saying here that Ali was "ko'd" or something stupid like that. As for your analysis of the secons ali-frazier fight, I have been saying that all along.:fing02:

The first fight is the most accurate portrayal. Ali tried to dance in round 5, but Frazier easily caught up to him and landed some good shots. Prime Frazier would have beaten the dancing Ali with relative ease.

Convenient how people use the second fight where Ali clinched the whole night and landed pitter patter punches as the fight that would have determined the outcome in their primes. Frazier didn't even swarm that night, Eddie Futch apparently had Frazier change his stance. He just stood there with his gloves up. The bobbing and weaving was key for Frazier to beat Ali.

Sure, the first fight was accurate for a prime for prime matchup when one was in his prime and the other wasn't. Great logic there Sherlock!:fing02:

Isn't it amazing how threads like these really bring the Ali haters out of the woodwork, kinda like roaches. It makes me want to spray this entire thread with D-Con (Kills 'em dead).

<img src="image.php?u=31581&amp;dateline=1173765257" width="200" height="286" border="0" />:fing02:

Frazier did look a little awkward in the 2nd fight compared to the first, and he was started to head on the down slope. My post was complimenting how Ali had visibly improved from their first meeting, as he had managed to shake off his post-layoff ring rust by that time. He had also not yet met with George Foreman, as did Frazier, which takes a lot out of a man. Ali also managed to dance for almost the entire fight. He only ever clinched when Joe got close to him. The last time I checked, that's a pretty good strategy against someone who has great game on the inside.

I guess what I was trying to say was this; Joe Frazier was at his best in the first fight. Ali was looser, more accurate, and more nimble in the 2nd fight. If you take the best of each fighter, it's still a whale of a fight, but I think it goes from being 8-6-1 Frazier (which any reasonable person scores the first fight, unless you're retarded), to 8-6-1 Ali. That swift, accurate edge he gains is difficult for Joe to overcome. Whenever Ali was able to flurry in any of the three fights, Joe simply got hit and usually had to walk into a clinch to regain the advantage.

Am I saying that Joe Frazier couldn't beat a prime Ali? No. It's certainly possible. Given how close all three fights were, however, even after Ali had lost his edge, I believe that Ali would take a close decision.

Oh yeah, staying on the topic of the thread's title: Ali was never invincible. :duh:

:fing02:...

Ali is a 'Poor Man's Sugar Ray Robinson'! Where do you think he got his moves and his shorts from??? There is absolutely no doubt that Ali was a great Heavy but Sugar Ray's the P4P King!

Only fools think Ali was overrated. Seems there are alot of fools on BoxingScene.

Frazier had Ali OUT ON HIS FEET in fight 1.
Frazier would've had Ali out on his feet by round 15 in "Super Fight" if there would've been one..
Frazier was BLIND AND ONE-ARMED and still had Ali OUT ON HIS FEET (he couldn't even sit down, let's face it) by the time he LET them (HIS CORNER) quit.

Frazier had Ali OUT ON HIS FEET in fight 1.
Frazier would've had Ali out on his feet by round 15 in "Super Fight" if there would've been one..
Frazier was BLIND AND ONE-ARMED and still had Ali OUT ON HIS FEET (he couldn't even sit down, let's face it) by the time he LET them (HIS CORNER) quit.

Ali had Frazier "out on his feet" in the second and third fights. There you go, buddy.:fing02:

Ali had Frazier "out on his feet" in the second and third fights. There you go, buddy.:fing02:

He pulls that blind crap every few days. The guy's just an Ali hater pure and simple. I think I'll make a new name for him: For-Men CrossDresser :owned2:

Poet

He pulls that blind crap every few days. The guy's just an Ali hater pure and simple. I think I'll make a new name for him: For-Men CrossDresser :owned2:

Poet

:lol1:....

But besides that statement of the obvious, where have guys like Sabbath, K-Dogg, Kid Achilles, Buddy, Butterfly, Stinger, etc., run off to?

I only ask because I don't see much in the way of recent posts from any of these guys in the history section here.Most forumers (myself included) prefer to read and post in the most active "non-stop boxing" forum for maximum views and replies.

As for Ali being overrated, Who's overrating him? Ali rightfully and consistently ranks among the top 5 greatest fighters overall, and within the top 3 heavyweights. I have yet to see a viable argument to the contrary, are you prepared to offer one?