View Full Version : Willie Pep vs Salvador Sanchez


THRILLAinmanila
10-18-2004, 04:25 AM
These two great featherweights passed away before their
time. If they were alive today and at the prime of their careers,
who do you think will rampage over the other ?

grayfist
10-18-2004, 10:25 AM
I'm not sure one can stack up Willie Pep against Salvador Sanchez on the premise cited. :)

Gugliemo Papeleo, also known as Wil o' d' Wisp, was born in 1922, had his debut against James McGovern in his hometown of Hartford, CT in 1940 and fought 242 (!) times, leaving a record of 230 wins (65 KO's)-- 11 losses and 1 Draw. When he went up the ring for his last fight he was 44 years old (March 1966, vs. Calvin Woodland in Richmond, VA)!

On the other hand, Salvador Sanchez, dubbed Chava by fans, indeed, died prematurely. He was born Jan. 6, 1959. He strung up a record of 44-1-1, losing only to Antonio Becerra for the Mexican Bantamweight title (SD) and wresting a single draw (vs. Juan Escobar) even after having been KD'd twice. Sanchez died in a car accident while at the peak of his career in a car crash on Aug. 12, 1982. He was only 23.

A mere weeks earlier, Sanchez had successfully defended his WBC Featherweight crown against Azumah Nelson (TKO15).

Trivia: Sanchez has on his record a fifth round TKO win over Felix Trinidad, Sr., father of Tito. Their fight was staged in Houston, TX. :)

JOM'S
10-18-2004, 01:21 PM
Nice Trivia grayfist, Sanchez was one of my favorites...

JOM'S
10-18-2004, 01:24 PM
Pep's record is outstanding but never seen him fight, but as a kid I saw a few fights of Sanchez and it is forever etched in my memory, and at that time I thought he was invincible and unbeatable.....

grayfist
10-18-2004, 11:02 PM
Nice Trivia grayfist, Sanchez was one of my favorites...Thanx pal! :) Sanchez is one of mine too! Along with (at random) Pep, Saddler, Arguello, the lightweight Duran, Gomez, Pedroza, Leonard, Benitez, Hagler, SR Robinson, JCChavez, Finito Lopez, Ben Villaflor, the Ol' Mongoose, Holmes, Holyfield, Elorde, Hammerin' Hank Armstrong, the Ranging Bull, Harada, Basilio, DeJesus, Greb,Jersey Joe, Pryor....LOTS! :D

I'm old enough to have caught some of Chava's fights. He had fits in his last one (vs. Nelson) and it appeared that he was on the way to a close decision loss (or a draw) until the 15th when he took the Professor out. Nelson was a late substitute, and got ringsiders wondering where he came from as he stood his ground against the great Sanchez. They exchanged KD's in the course of the fight held at the Madison Square Garden, NY, in July 21, 1983, about three weeks before Sanchez met that fatal accident. :(

As for Pep, if one were to believe allegations that flew thick at the time that he threw some of his fights (it was said that he took a dive in at least 4), his WIN record would have looked a lot better had he not taken those losses in the manner that he allegedly did. ;)

Boxerdog
10-18-2004, 11:48 PM
Bravo Fist!
I thought that I was the only guy on the net that knew Willie's real name.
I used to have as my sig a great quote from the great man:

"I'm a lucky man. I have a wife and a television set and they're both working."- Willie Pep

grayfist
10-18-2004, 11:56 PM
Bravo Fist!
I thought that I was the only guy on the net that knew Willie's real name.
I used to have as my sig a great quote from the great man:

"I'm a lucky man. I have a wife and a television set and they're both working."- Willie PepHA! HA! HA! :D Thanx for the accolade pal! Pep was quite a man both inside and outside the ring! I'm feeling bad I came in too late to this site to have seen your Pep quote of a signature. :o I would have lapped it up! :D...as I AM LAPPING it up NOW!!! :D

THRILLAinmanila
10-19-2004, 12:12 AM
Bravo Fist!
I thought that I was the only guy on the net that knew Willie's real name.
I used to have as my sig a great quote from the great man:

"I'm a lucky man. I have a wife and a television set and they're both working."- Willie Pep


I know
of another similar quote:

" I have the best job in the world.
I beat people up and they pay me for it" - Anonymous boxer

grayfist
10-19-2004, 12:29 AM
I know
of another similar quote:

" I have the best job in the world.
I beat people up and they pay me for it" - Anonymous boxerHA! HA! HA! HA! Those GEMS make boxing the sport it is! :D The only one that comes close when it comes to great quotes may be baseball (especially the old generation players) :) Compared to what the denizens of boxing have been quoted as saying, those lines coming out of the NBA, NFL and NHL are polite tea party conversations! :D GREAT LINE, Pal!!!

THRILLAinmanila
10-20-2004, 10:43 PM
Thanx pal! :) Sanchez is one of mine too! Along with (at random) Pep, Saddler, Arguello, the lightweight Duran, Gomez, Pedroza, Leonard, Benitez, Hagler, SR Robinson, JCChavez, Finito Lopez, Ben Villaflor, the Ol' Mongoose, Holmes, Holyfield, Elorde, Hammerin' Hank Armstrong, the Ranging Bull, Harada, Basilio, DeJesus, Greb,Jersey Joe, Pryor....LOTS! :D

I'm old enough to have caught some of Chava's fights. He had fits in his last one (vs. Nelson) and it appeared that he was on the way to a close decision loss (or a draw) until the 15th when he took the Professor out. Nelson was a late substitute, and got ringsiders wondering where he came from as he stood his ground against the great Sanchez. They exchanged KD's in the course of the fight held at the Madison Square Garden, NY, in July 21, 1983, about three weeks before Sanchez met that fatal accident. :(

As for Pep, if one were to believe allegations that flew thick at the time that he threw some of his fights (it was said that he took a dive in at least 4), his WIN record would have looked a lot better had he not taken those losses in the manner that he allegedly did. ;)


Talking about Flash Elorde.... it took a long time coming but I
believe his heir has finally come (though in a different division)......

jabsRstiff
10-21-2004, 09:55 AM
These two great featherweights passed away before their
time. If they were alive today and at the prime of their careers,
who do you think will rampage over the other ?


?????

Willie Pep is STILL alive, Asian Storm.

He was in a plane crash that, during his prime, that left him quite injured....& took years off of his prime.

Who wins between the two ?
Check your history boys....Salvador Sanchez never looked great against another boxer. He shined (brilliantly) against brawlers.
In Pep, he'd be facing the master. Pep, outboxed brawlers & other boxers with ease.
"Styles make fights"....& when it comes to style, Pep was king.

Pep W15 sanchez.

Italian250
10-21-2004, 10:00 AM
To me, a much better matchup is Sanchez vs Saddler... Now THAT, is a fight for all time!

LuKahnLi
10-21-2004, 10:20 AM
Pep wins this one. Sanchez was very patient....a little too patient when the guy in front of you is like Willie Pep. You can forget about Sanchez hurting Pep enough with the few punches he DOES land. Pep boxes rings around him and wins a decision. Pep W15

LuKahnLi
10-21-2004, 10:20 AM
Jabs

Willie Pep is suffering from severe Alzheimer's. He may as well be dead.

grayfist
10-21-2004, 11:30 AM
Talking about Flash Elorde.... it took a long time coming but I
believe his heir has finally come (though in a different division)......Hi pal! :) Da Flash begun his career in 1951 and wound it up in a bout against Hiroyuki Murukami in Tokyo in 1971 after having strung up a record of 87-27-2 (33KO's), a kind of KO stat that's not as impressive as Manny Pacquiao's and another Filipino champ (Middleweight) Ceferino Garcia (100-26-9 with 65KO's), who introduced to the world of boxing the Bolo Punch (now illegal).

Actually, Elorde fought in several weight divisions; on some occassions he shifted to and fro between Lightweight and Jr. Light even as he held the latter division's world crown:

In 1952, he wrested the Philippine Bantamweight crown from Tanny Campo and three months later took the Orient crown of that division in a fight in Japan against a Japanese fighter.

In 1953, he lost on points to fellow Filipino Larry Bataan in his first bid for a featherweight title (OPBF); and, in the following year, he lost in his second try at that division when Shigeji Kanuko beat him in Tokyo on points.

Taking his featherweight campaign a step farther, he jumped into the world scene and faced the great Sandy Saddler at the Cow Palace in San Franciscio, CA, but was TKOD in the thirteenth round (Ref stopped the bout owing to cuts suffered by Elorde). Some six months earlier, in a bout held in Manila, Elorde had won over Saddler on points.

Actually, Elorde's legend did not begin to flower until after he had met Harold Gomes during the inauguration of the Araneta Coliseum in Quezon City. He stopped Gomes cold in the 7th round to wrest the World Jr. Lightweight crown. They met again a few months later in San Francisco; Elorde made that evening shorter by KO'ing Gomes in the very first round.

Between defending his Jr. Lightweight crown against the likes of Sergio Caprarri, Love Allotey, Auburn Copeland and Johnny Bizzaro, Elorde frequently took time out to fight as a lightweight and the most storied meetings he had were those three against Tirou Kosaka of Japan and one against the legendary Ismael Laguna.

After losing to Carlos Ortiz in a fight in Manila, Elorde, met Kosaka an additional two times. Then, he met Ortiz again in 1966 at the Madison Square Garden in NY, where Ortiz felled him in the 14th.

Elorde lost his Jr. Lightweight title to Numata by MD15 in Tokyo in June 1967.

He fougth about a dozen more times, but his performance near the tail end of his career was at best spotty. Most of the losses one sees on his record came both at the start (when he was a struggling bootblack by day in the island province of Cebu in the Philippines) and near the end of his boxing days.

Da Flash passed on in Jan 2, 1985 at the age of 49, a victim of the big C. :( :)

JOM'S
10-21-2004, 11:54 AM
gray fist thanks for the trivia abour the Great Flash Elorde....

my take on Pep vs Sanchez, the only thing I know about Pep is he is either the No.1 or No. 2 All Time Feather and I never saw him fight, but for Sanchez as a kid I saw him fight a few times and made me think during that time he was invincible & unbeatable, we will never know his full potential...

for me not knowing the other man I will absolutely go for sanchez who as a kid I thought was invincible & unbeatable.....

grayfist
10-21-2004, 12:28 PM
gray fist thanks for the trivia abour the Great Flash Elorde....

my take on Pep vs Sanchez, the only thing I know about Pep is he is either the No.1 or No. 2 All Time Feather and I never saw him fight, but for Sanchez as a kid I saw him fight a few times and made me think during that time he was invincible & unbeatable, we will never know his full potential...

for me not knowing the other man I will absolutely go for sanchez who as a kid a thought was invincible & unbeatable.....Anytime, pal! :) Actually, there, I believe, lies the beauty of boxing. It often defies consensus. Each fan has his own veiw of fighters. With Sanchez, it even gets worse: he died too young! Have we seen the best he had? Could he have been even better? Questions, questions! :)

Yes, you're right. Most experts believe, Pep was the best featherweight ever. But there are those who think that Saddler gave Pep a very tough time indeed!

As to whether Pep can handle Sanchez. Well, Chava's last fight (vs. Azumah Nelson) indicated he had problems with highly skilled ones. And, though Nelson belongs at Canastota, no one is saying he was Pep's second coming. ;) Good talking to you again, buddy! :)

THRILLAinmanila
10-21-2004, 11:50 PM
Hi pal! :) Da Flash begun his career in 1951 and wound it up in a bout against Hiroyuki Murukami in Tokyo in 1971 after having strung up a record of 87-27-2 (33KO's), a kind of KO stat that's not as impressive as Manny Pacquiao's and another Filipino champ (Middleweight) Ceferino Garcia (100-26-9 with 65KO's), who introduced to the world of boxing the Bolo Punch (now illegal).

Actually, Elorde fought in several weight divisions; on some occassions he shifted to and fro between Lightweight and Jr. Light even as he held the latter division's world crown:

In 1952, he wrested the Philippine Bantamweight crown from Tanny Campo and three months later took the Orient crown of that division in a fight in Japan against a Japanese fighter.

In 1953, he lost on points to fellow Filipino Larry Bataan in his first bid for a featherweight title (OPBF); and, in the following year, he lost in his second try at that division when Shigeji Kanuko beat him in Tokyo on points.

Taking his featherweight campaign a step farther, he jumped into the world scene and faced the great Sandy Saddler at the Cow Palace in San Franciscio, CA, but was TKOD in the thirteenth round (Ref stopped the bout owing to cuts suffered by Elorde). Some six months earlier, in a bout held in Manila, Elorde had won over Saddler on points.

Actually, Elorde's legend did not begin to flower until after he had met Harold Gomes during the inauguration of the Araneta Coliseum in Quezon City. He stopped Gomes cold in the 7th round to wrest the World Jr. Lightweight crown. They met again a few months later in San Francisco; Elorde made that evening shorter by KO'ing Gomes in the very first round.

Between defending his Jr. Lightweight crown against the likes of Sergio Caprarri, Love Allotey, Auburn Copeland and Johnny Bizzaro, Elorde frequently took time out to fight as a lightweight and the most storied meetings he had were those three against Tirou Kosaka of Japan and one against the legendary Ismael Laguna.

After losing to Carlos Ortiz in a fight in Manila, Elorde, met Kosaka an additional two times. Then, he met Ortiz again in 1966 at the Madison Square Garden in NY, where Ortiz felled him in the 14th.

Elorde lost his Jr. Lightweight title to Numata by MD15 in Tokyo in June 1967.

He fougth about a dozen more times, but his performance near the tail end of his career was at best spotty. Most of the losses one sees on his record came both at the start (when he was a struggling bootblack by day in the island province of Cebu in the Philippines) and near the end of his boxing days.

Da Flash passed on in Jan 2, 1985 at the age of 49, a victim of the big C. :( :)


Great info grayfist ! Thanks :)

grayfist
10-22-2004, 12:03 AM
Great info grayfist ! Thanks :) :) No sweat, pal! Here's a little more Elorde trivia that may interest you and Jomapac:

In 1965 Da Flash went to New York to face Frankie Narvaez at MSG in a lightweight non-title tiff. When the decision favoring Elorde was announced, fans went on a rampage, throwing chairs and whatever moveable objects they laid there hands on. The riot spilled unto the streets where fans hurled bricks and stones from a nearby construction site! :o

:)

JOM'S
10-22-2004, 03:54 AM
grayfist was that fight won on a bad decision or just unruly fanatic action.....

THRILLAinmanila
10-22-2004, 04:07 AM
grayfist was that fight won on a bad decision or just unruly fanatic action.....


Must be just plain sourgraping.... :D

grayfist
10-22-2004, 04:22 AM
grayfist was that fight won on a bad decision or just unruly fanatic action.....I personally haven't seen any film or tape of that fight, so, sorry pal, can't say for sure. What I learned from my late father (he went to MSG for that fight) was that twas pretty close! One could call it either way, he said. Of course, there was an element of bias in my dad's take: he was an Elorde fan! ;)

techn9ne
10-22-2004, 04:54 AM
willie pep

THRILLAinmanila
10-22-2004, 04:58 AM
willie pep


techn9ne... how bout Sanchez-Saddler?

grayfist
10-24-2004, 12:11 AM
Joseph Saddler of Boston, MA, aka Sandy Saddler, had a career that spanned 12 years which he suffused with 163 fights or 13.58 fights per year! He had more fights each year than there were months! :D He could have had gone on but for eye trouble which forced him to retire undefeated as a champ in Jan. 1956. While holding the World Featherweight title, Saddler had losses (among them to Flash Elorde, in Manila, during their first meeting and in his last career outing: April 14, 1956 where he went against a 135-pound Larry Boardman while weighing 130 lbs in his hometown of Boston), but none of those losses were in a title fight, except one: the Feb 1949 UD15 loss to Willie Pep at the MSG in NY. That fight was their second of four World title tiffs. It was hailed FIGHT OF THE YEAR-1949 by THE RING (magazine), THOUGH THE SCORES WEREN'T CLOSE: 10-5, 9-5-1 and 9-6. :rolleyes:

Saddler and Pep first met in Oct 1948. Saddler KD'd Pep two times in the third and finished him off in the 4th. They met a third time in Sept 1950 at the Yankee Stadium in NY. Pep was unable to re-emerge from his corner in the 8th due to shoulder separation. All the scorecards had Pep ahead at the time of the stoppage. Their final meeting was in September of the following year at the Polo Grounds, NY. Saddler took that one, as well, on TKO9.

Saddler had 103(!) KO's in 145 W's and many experts consider him the heaviest puncher the featherweight division has ever seen, bar none. But his vaunted punching power did not deter him from using tactics barred by the books. His two fights with Elorde were foul marred as were plenty of others. And Saddler was DQ'd in the 4th when he met Armand Savoie in Montreal, in 1952, for excessive holding, hitting on the breaks and using his gloves' laces to cut Savoie's face.

What has often been overlooked when fans talk about the great Saddler was that he held the World Jr.Lightweight title even as he was holding the World Featherweight title. But his jr. lightweight diadem was recognized only in Ohio and very few other places. He won that title (twas vacant) after beating Orlando Zulueta in Cleveland on Dec. 6, 1949. He defended that two times successfully (vs. Lauro Salas and Diego Sosa).

Saddler was tall for a featherweight, especially for his era. He was over 5'8.

He lost only 16 and drew 2.

The arguments rage: who was better? Saddler or Pep? Well, Saddler took three of their four encounters...

Could Sanchez have given either or both of them a run for their money? Well... ;)

Yogi
10-24-2004, 12:49 AM
techn9ne... how bout Sanchez-Saddler?

You'll probably find your answer in the fight between Sanchez and Patrick Ford.

Much like Saddler would, Ford used his height and reach very effectively in his fight with Sanchez, as he repeated landed his jab and straight right hands all throughout the fifteen rounds.

Now imagine if that was Saddler in there with Sanchez.

If there's one featherweight in history that could dent the chin of Sanchez and put him down for the count with a right cross (or two, or three...however many it takes), it would be the thunderous punching Sandy Saddler.

THRILLAinmanila
10-25-2004, 02:24 AM
You'll probably find your answer in the fight between Sanchez and Patrick Ford.

Much like Saddler would, Ford used his height and reach very effectively in his fight with Sanchez, as he repeated landed his jab and straight right hands all throughout the fifteen rounds.

Now imagine if that was Saddler in there with Sanchez.

If there's one featherweight in history that could dent the chin of Sanchez and put him down for the count with a right cross (or two, or three...however many it takes), it would be the thunderous punching Sandy Saddler.


Thought so too. From the bio that grayfist put up there, Saddler
can beat the hell out any feather from the past and even at present...