How can you rate guys like dempsey and sullivan since they never foguht black opponants.

The same way you rate guys like Foreman and Holmes who never fought Eastern Bloc opponents.

whats not fighting black people got to do with it?

whats not fighting black people got to do with it?

Well think about it. Dempsey may have been the best white heaavyweight but what about all the black challengers out there. Maybe they could have beaten him.

Well think about it. Dempsey may have been the best white heaavyweight but what about all the black challengers out there. Maybe they could have beaten him.

I agree. If Demsepy had fought and beaten Wills he cracks the all time top ten heavyweights with ease. But excluding a whole series of potentially contendors on the grounds of race virtually destroyed his legacy for me.

Think about it: if you either of the Klit's refused to fight the top black challengers, how hightly would you rate them?

Why is it that you think that Wills (and other very good blacks of that era such as Sam McVey and Sam Langford) are so superior to the whites of the same era? So unless every boxer fought blacks, they can't fight??? Unless they beat a black man, the black man is automatically superior?? You have no respect for Jack Dempsey???????

Here is a link to Harry Wills' fight record....http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=17615.

Hope this helps you see that Wills was not some undefeated Tyson-like monster who never lost.
Please, don't underestimate the greatness of Dempsey. Even blacks give him his due place in history.

Why is it that you think that Wills (and other very good blacks of that era such as Sam McVey and Sam Langford) are so superior to the whites of the same era? So unless every boxer fought blacks, they can't fight??? Unless they beat a black man, the black man is automatically superior?? You have no respect for Jack Dempsey???????

Please, don't underestimate the greatness of Dempsey. Even blacks give him his due place in history.


Of course Dempsey has his place in history. But it would have been a great deal higher if he didn't fail to fight some of the greatest fighters of his day - whatevever the reason. The reason doesn't matter to me. Demspey didn't prove himself better than many cracking fighters from his era (and one in Wills who may well have beaten him) so this makes it harder to rate him above other great fighters since then.

Well think about it. Dempsey may have been the best white heaavyweight but what about all the black challengers out there. Maybe they could have beaten him.he's white and native american. :p

Of course Dempsey has his place in history. But it would have been a great deal higher if he didn't fail to fight some of the greatest fighters of his day - whatevever the reason. The reason doesn't matter to me. Demspey didn't prove himself better than many cracking fighters from his era (and one in Wills who may well have beaten him) so this makes it harder to rate him above other great fighters since then.

The thing about Wills that makes me doubt that he could survive against Dempsey, let alone beat him, is the fact that he was KO'ed 5 times in his career. Look back at his record a 2nd time and look at the guys who knocked him out. And check out THEIR records as well. They were not heavy hitters and yet they knocked him out. Imagine what bombers like Dempsey would have done to him.
Do I think Harry Wills was a very good fighter? Absolutley.
Do I think he could have beaten Dempsey? No way.
Would Dempsey's all time standing be even better had he beaten Wills? Yes.
Will we ever no for sure? Unfortunately no...

PS- Glad to have you posting with us McGrain!

It's funny that you mentioned Klitschko, because that proves my point exactly. All the top heavies today are from the eastern bloc, so if Dempsey's record is tainted by the color line, so is Ali's, Foreman's etc. by the Iron Curtain. But none of their records are tainted.

Dempsey would beat Wills and had no fear of him. Wills and other black fighters should blame Jack Johnson for not getting a shot. The bad publicity Johnson generated during his reign wouldn't allow the Boxing World to take a chance on them as challengers. Langford was pretty done during Dempseys reign, however Dempsey said himself he would lose to a prime Langford.

It's funny that you mentioned Klitschko, because that proves my point exactly. All the top heavies today are from the eastern bloc, so if Dempsey's record is tainted by the color line, so is Ali's, Foreman's etc. by the Iron Curtain. But none of their records are tainted.

Exactly. Nicely stated.

Dempsey would beat Wills and had no fear of him. Wills and other black fighters should blame Jack Johnson for not getting a shot. The bad publicity Johnson generated during his reign wouldn't allow the Boxing World to take a chance on them as challengers. Langford was pretty done during Dempseys reign, however Dempsey said himself he would lose to a prime Langford.

What an astonishing statement. The great black fighters of the Dempsey area should blame Johnson and not the racist society of the time for their disgraceful failure to be allowed to fight for linear titles? That might be the most extraordinary thing i've ever heard.

It's funny that you mentioned Klitschko, because that proves my point exactly. All the top heavies today are from the eastern bloc, so if Dempsey's record is tainted by the color line, so is Ali's, Foreman's etc. by the Iron Curtain. But none of their records are tainted.

Nobody behind the amatuer curtain was involved with professional boxing. Your point is moot. It's a little like saying Ali has a tainted record for not fighting Jim Brown.

The iron curtain guys were competing in a different version of the sport. Amatuer Boxing. Those fights could not have been made.

The thing about Wills that makes me doubt that he could survive against Dempsey, let alone beat him, is the fact that he was KO'ed 5 times in his career. Look back at his record a 2nd time and look at the guys who knocked him out. And check out THEIR records as well. They were not heavy hitters and yet they knocked him out. Imagine what bombers like Dempsey would have done to him.
Do I think Harry Wills was a very good fighter? Absolutley.
Do I think he could have beaten Dempsey? No way.
Would Dempsey's all time standing be even better had he beaten Wills? Yes.
Will we ever no for sure? Unfortunately no...

PS- Glad to have you posting with us McGrain!


Thanks for the welcome friend.

Dempsey would have had youth on his side. Wills probably was past his best. But most of the loses that eliminated him from serious competition were yet to come. He was probably the second best fighter in the division after Dempsey, and that is exactly the sort of man a champion should fight.

Did you know there were actually contracts drawn up for this fight? So it could have happened - but it didn't. And because it didn't my speculation that Dempsey would be a very slight betting favourite, and your speculation that he would be a clear favourite are just that, speculation. No different than specualtion about Marciano-Frazier.

If a champion fails to fight the best fighter in his division - for whatever reason - that taints his legacy.

Thanks for the welcome friend.

Dempsey would have had youth on his side. Wills probably was past his best. But most of the loses that eliminated him from serious competition were yet to come. He was probably the second best fighter in the division after Dempsey, and that is exactly the sort of man a champion should fight.

Did you know there were actually contracts drawn up for this fight? So it could have happened - but it didn't. And because it didn't my speculation that Dempsey would be a very slight betting favourite, and your speculation that he would be a clear favourite are just that, speculation. No different than specualtion about Marciano-Frazier.

If a champion fails to fight the best fighter in his division - for whatever reason - that taints his legacy.

McGrain,

For someone with only 7 posts, you present well thought out posts. For the record, I actually agree with every statement you made in the top paragraph.

I knew they "talked" of actually fighting but did not know that contracts were drawn up.

I still would pick Dempsey had they fought.

Marciano vs Frazier...all time dream fight!

Agree also with your last statement.

I gave you green rep for this very nice post.

What an astonishing statement. The great black fighters of the Dempsey area should blame Johnson and not the racist society of the time for their disgraceful failure to be allowed to fight for linear titles? That might be the most extraordinary thing i've ever heard.

The fact still remains that Joe Louis had to walk on egg shells thirty years after the reign of Jack Johnson. I am an admirer of Johnson and Dempsey was wrong for not fighting Wills or other blacks, but the demand was not their for the fight at the time I don't believe. If it was Dempsey would have fought Wills.

I agree with the statement that black fighters had to run for Johnson's image. Louis' managers made him sign a stirct contract that he wouldn't be with white women, wouldn't drink in public and was forbidden from all the other stuff Johnson was known for. That's why he wasn't loud or anything because they wanted to project him as a calm, well spoken gentleman which is the opposite of Johnson.
As for Dempsey not being able to beat the black contenders that's ridiculous. He is one of the all time greatest for a reasn despite racism or society.

McGrain,

For someone with only 7 posts, you present well thought out posts. For the record, I actually agree with every statement you made in the top paragraph.

I knew they "talked" of actually fighting but did not know that contracts were drawn up.

I still would pick Dempsey had they fought.

Marciano vs Frazier...all time dream fight!

Agree also with your last statement.

I gave you green rep for this very nice post.


Thanks for the review (i've still to work out all of that yet).

I got Frazier stopping Rocky late. You?

Nobody behind the amatuer curtain was involved with professional boxing. Your point is moot. It's a little like saying Ali has a tainted record for not fighting Jim Brown.

The iron curtain guys were competing in a different version of the sport. Amatuer Boxing. Those fights could not have been made.

Well I think it's clear that our distinction between professional and amateur is much less relevant to a socialist economic system. But I'll concede . . .

Welcome to BS McGrain.

I got Frazier stopping Rocky late. You?

Frazier is 1 inch taller and roughly 16 lbs heavier. And Frazier also fought (and beat) 3 guys with styles similar to Rocky's...George Chuvalo (KO), Ron Stander (KO) and Jerry Quarry twice (KO, KO). Frazier fought other sluggers and prevailed.

Marciano had just as much heart as Frazier, more experience (although Frazier's amateur background bodes well for him) and was just as dangerous late as early.

To me, the deciding factor here is Archie Moore was able to knock down (not out) Marciano, and who disputes that Frazier hits way harder than the Mongoose? Plus, only Foreman was able to KO Frazier (Manila was more wore down / TKO) And Foreman (6'3" 225) beats Rocky (5'10" 189) every time, so, I would say that if they ever fought in their prime, my pick would also be Frazier, say in about 8-9 rounds. Frazier would put too many heavy shots on the Rock for him to be able to withstand the slow beat down. I don't see Rocky landing too many on Frazier, who's defence was under rated.

This would have been a great fight.

Of course Dempsey has his place in history. But it would have been a great deal higher if he didn't fail to fight some of the greatest fighters of his day - whatevever the reason. The reason doesn't matter to me. Demspey didn't prove himself better than many cracking fighters from his era (and one in Wills who may well have beaten him) so this makes it harder to rate him above other great fighters since then.

which fighters are you talking about?
dempsey did fight at least one black guy he was a huge guy but i don't remember his name.

a fighter can only be judged against the fighters he fights. the public didn't want to see black vs white so it never happened

Welcome to BS McGrain.

Thanks bud.

which fighters are you talking about?
dempsey did fight at least one black guy he was a huge guy but i don't remember his name.

a fighter can only be judged against the fighters he fights. the public didn't want to see black vs white so it never happened


Interesting that you say the public didn't want to see black v white fights - but point out that Dempsey fought in one. Why? I think the public did want to see these fights.

Mcvey and Wills would have been the main ones. Jack Johnson was campaigning for a shot at the title I beleive. Though a lot of that may have been hokum, he certainly would have got one these days.

Interestingly though it is a white fighter, Harry Greb, who may feel most hard done by after Wills.

Anyway, fighting any of these guys is certainly better than what he did - very little. Wasn't he the most inactive champion ever? Any one of these guys would be better than "no-one".