i've seen many sites but they say '' according to many sources ''.

anyone knows?

i've seen many sites but they say '' according to many sources ''.

anyone knows?

Doesn't matter. That bigoted piece of trash wasn't that great anyway.

Doesn't matter. That bigoted piece of trash wasn't that great anyway.you think someone with a record of 50 wins is not any good? especially bare knuckle.

you think someone with a record of 50 wins is not any good? especially bare knuckle.

Yeah, but against who? Nobodies, that's who.

Yeah, but against who? Nobodies, that's who.http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/DaDeHustLa/Smileys/lmao-1.gif you mad?

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/DaDeHustLa/Smileys/lmao-1.gif you mad?

I'm a little annoyed at the attention this guy gets sometimes. I'm a little suprised you have him as your avatar, given his history of blatant racism many times (unless you didn't know that), and you being a minority and all.

http://i19.tinypic.com/4h8qnm9.jpg

This girl is incredible. I want to kiss her stomach (and work my way down). That is all.

This girl is incredible. I want to kiss her stomach (and work my way down). That is all.

i concur.......

Doesn't matter. That bigoted piece of trash wasn't that great anyway.

He wasn't that great?How much footage have you studied of him Butterfly?Sure he avoided the best black fighters of his day,but they all did in that era.From what i've read,he reigned as champ for several years,and was only beaten once.His last fight ever I beleive!The man may have been a racist like everyone else of those days,but don't say he wasn't great.You really don't know what your talking about.

i've seen many sites but they say '' according to many sources ''.

anyone knows?

In Bert Sugar's book,he writes that Sullivan only lost once,with several draws I beleive.

This girl is incredible. I want to kiss her stomach (and work my way down). That is all.you can find her in colombia.

He wasn't that great?How much footage have you studied of him Butterfly?Sure he avoided the best black fighters of his day,but they all did in that era.From what i've read,he reigned as champ for several years,and was only beaten once.His last fight ever I beleive!The man may have been a racist like everyone else of those days,but don't say he wasn't great.You really don't know what your talking about.exactly , let's not blame the racism in sullivan, he was just raised like that by his parents.

exactly , let's not blame the racism in sullivan, he was just raised like that by his parents.

He has a mind of his own, doesn't he?:rolleyes:

That's a bit like saying every black person born in a ghetto who turns to selling drugs is an evil sack of **** for doing that, when the truth is, it's more or less accepted as the only way out of that situation. In those days racism was indoctrined in men from working class households, like Sullivan, since birth.

Sullivan was a strong man, who was tough and had his own code of honor and ethics, he was no sack of ****, but he came from a pretty ignorant background when matters of race are concerned.

I don't think he was a bad man, nor do I think Jeffries was, but they were clearly brainwashed along with millions of other.

Even today it's ridiculous how many families teach their children to be racist. In my case I grew up with my father who was very bigoted (anti jew, hispanic, black, italian, etc. etc), but I guess a decent education (we have a good public school system here) a bit of natural intelligence and decency and a love of reading taught me how stupid my father was.

Not everyone can escape the bull**** their family feeds them growing up though. Most just eat it up.

That's a bit like saying every black person born in a ghetto who turns to selling drugs is an evil sack of **** for doing that, when the truth is, it's more or less accepted as the only way out of that situation. In those days racism was indoctrined in men from working class households, like Sullivan, since birth.

Sullivan was a strong man, who was tough and had his own code of honor and ethics, he was no sack of ****, but he came from a pretty ignorant background when matters of race are concerned.

I don't think he was a bad man, nor do I think Jeffries was, but they were clearly brainwashed along with millions of other.

If they continue doing it (selling drugs) for the rest of their lives, instead of realizing the danger and stupidity of it, then they are ignorant wasts of space. Same thing with racism. I'm not saying they're bad when they believe it when they're young and their parents brainwash them. But when they become adults and supposedly can think rationally for themselves and still don't see the error of their ways, then there's nothing good I can say about them.

The thing is, at the time even the government considered blacks inferior, with the horrible Jim Crow laws. It's not like the rest of the people in American were progressive in their thoughts, and Sullivan and Jeffries were some neanderthals stubbornly clinging to racism. Most people thought like that. In most cases only the exceptionally gifted and the educated realize the lie that racism was.

Even today, people are pretty clueless. Someone I knew recently said "well, blacks do have an extra muscle in their legs, that's just a medical fact, and it's why they can run faster" and I just thought to myself WTF?!

Most people just don't care to learn. Back then it was even worse. Talking about equality between blacks and whites then would be akin to talking about hm....socialized medicine, today. :D

The thing is, at the time even the government considered blacks inferior, with the horrible Jim Crow laws. It's not like the rest of the people in American were progressive in their thoughts, and Sullivan and Jeffries were some neanderthals stubbornly clinging to racism. Most people thought like that. In most cases only the exceptionally gifted and the educated realize the lie that racism was.

Even today, people are pretty clueless. Someone I knew recently said "well, blacks do have an extra muscle in their legs, that's just a medical fact, and it's why they can run faster" and I just thought to myself WTF?!

Most people just don't care to learn. Back then it was even worse. Talking about equality between blacks and whites then would be akin to talking about hm....socialized medicine, today. :D

It's not like every poor, uneducated person was a racist back then. It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to realize that people are people.:rolleyes:

Not every but a great deal of them. And you'd think that "people are people" is common sense, but was everyone in Germany a scumbag with no morals as they sat back and allowed what was the almost successful genocide of all Jews in Europe? Groups of people are very easy to manipulate, like flocks of sheep or herds of cows. Racism was a myth sparked with the intentions of justifying slavery because this country had much to gain from it financially. When slavery ended, the myth did not die out. We're still feeling the effect, like nuclear fallout still lingering from an old a-bomb detonation.

He has a mind of his own, doesn't he?:rolleyes:so? , once your parents fill your brain with worthless racist crap like '' BLACK PEOPLE ARE MEAN AND HORRFIE PEOPLE, DONT YOU EVER TALK TO THEN '' he will grow thinking of it everyday.

but at the end he changed, once johnson K.O jeffries down he also changed.

Can you imagine how big this guy was in his time. Like the hero of all of his people at the time. LEGEND.

He was the first American superstar athlete. Not just in boxing but in any sport.

he's considered by many historian writers as the first american heavyweight champion in the history of boxing(bare-knuckles)

Not every but a great deal of them. And you'd think that "people are people" is common sense, but was everyone in Germany a scumbag with no morals as they sat back and allowed what was the almost successful genocide of all Jews in Europe? Groups of people are very easy to manipulate, like flocks of sheep or herds of cows. Racism was a myth sparked with the intentions of justifying slavery because this country had much to gain from it financially. When slavery ended, the myth did not die out. We're still feeling the effect, like nuclear fallout still lingering from an old a-bomb detonation.

The Germans are a bad example. They didn't know about the Holocaust until after the war was over. I'm sure most of them would have objected to it had they have known about it while it was happening.

The Germans are a bad example. They didn't know about the Holocaust until after the war was over. I'm sure most of them would have objected to it had they have known about it while it was happening.

ofcourse they would and if they had a choice, peope are forgetting the many who had to do nasty things ore they would be shot for treason.


anyway i dont see why you blame sullivan for racism its was a totaly normal way to think in his day

ofcourse they would and if they had a choice, peope are forgetting the many who had to do nasty things ore they would be shot for treason.

I don't get what you're saying.

Actually many Germans knew all about the holocaust. Many businesses helped construct those concentration camps and sold the Nazi's the poisons used. Things like that cannot be kept secret. Locals knew exactly what was going on.

I don't get what you're saying.

We acknowledge and accept the horrible conditions farm animals are kept in, and the horribly painful ways they are killed and yet we still buy meat. Let's say 100 years from now, when humans are all vegetarians, they will look back at us and consider us soul-less bastards.

Does that mean that every single person who eats meat today is evil?

We acknowledge and accept the horrible conditions farm animals are kept in, and the horribly painful ways they are killed and yet we still buy meat. Let's say 100 years from now, when humans are all vegetarians, they will look back at us and consider us soul-less bastards.

Does that mean that every single person who eats meat today is evil?

That's another bad example because farm animals are not human beings.

No they aren't, but they didn't consider blacks equal to human beings back then either. I'm hypothesizing a situation where a hundred years from now they look back at our slaughter of animals with disgust, like we do on slavery, even though slavery was seen as a normal thing at the time.

Remember in Huckleberry Finn was Finn actually felt bad about running off with Jim, because he was so brainwashed to think that helping a slave escape was stealing and a sin? And Huckleberry Finn was a character with morals and a conscience.

You'd think it's pretty cut and dry and that since blacks were people they would have been considered as such, but they weren't. The point we're making is that in those times, even after they'd been freed, they were 2nd class citizens, if even that, and a lot of people still would have preferred this country go back to adopting slavery. The overwhelming majority were racist and used derrogatory terms. In the 1930's lunchings were still a common ocurrence.

Even as recent as the 1950's and early 1960's, we were in a terrible state civil rights wise. Lynchings continued until the late 1960's. The idea of fairness and equality for all ethnicites, or between men and women was a difficult concept for many. Going back to the late 1800's...civil rights? Forget about it.

So yeah Sullivan was full of **** and a brainwashed fool for his comments, but that doesn't mean he was weak of character or evil. His sentiments were shared by many at the time.

Well how is it all the white fighters from the turn of the century are garbage, yet Jack Johnson somehow manages to slip through butterfly's analysis. :rolleyes:

At least he gives Jack Dempsey credit, which means I still have some respect for him....:kiss:

Lets face it Butterfly if John Sullivan and James Jefferies and all the other white fighters fought bums how is it that Jack Johnson who fought around the same time period fought good competition....

Somehow a guy who can fight for 76 rounds and 4 hours, bare-knuckle whether ****ty competition or not doesn't seem like he should be called a bad fighter...

Here's a good vid=

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3038053989864698037&q=John+L+Sullivan&hl=en

Well how is it all the white fighters from the turn of the century are garbage, yet Jack Johnson somehow manages to slip through butterfly's analysis. :rolleyes:

At least he gives Jack Dempsey credit, which means I still have some respect for him....:kiss:

Lets face it Butterfly if John Sullivan and James Jefferies and all the other white fighters fought bums how is it that Jack Johnson who fought around the same time period fought good competition....

:fing02: ..

No they aren't, but they didn't consider blacks equal to human beings back then either. I'm hypothesizing a situation where a hundred years from now they look back at our slaughter of animals with disgust, like we do on slavery, even though slavery was seen as a normal thing at the time.

Remember in Huckleberry Finn was Finn actually felt bad about running off with Jim, because he was so brainwashed to think that helping a slave escape was stealing and a sin? And Huckleberry Finn was a character with morals and a conscience.

You'd think it's pretty cut and dry and that since blacks were people they would have been considered as such, but they weren't. The point we're making is that in those times, even after they'd been freed, they were 2nd class citizens, if even that, and a lot of people still would have preferred this country go back to adopting slavery. The overwhelming majority were racist and used derrogatory terms. In the 1930's lunchings were still a common ocurrence.

Even as recent as the 1950's and early 1960's, we were in a terrible state civil rights wise. Lynchings continued until the late 1960's. The idea of fairness and equality for all ethnicites, or between men and women was a difficult concept for many. Going back to the late 1800's...civil rights? Forget about it.

So yeah Sullivan was full of **** and a brainwashed fool for his comments, but that doesn't mean he was weak of character or evil. His sentiments were shared by many at the time.

So are you saying that farm animals are human beings?

So are you saying that farm animals are human beings?

God, you're one dumbass. Even if you're pretending.

Well how is it all the white fighters from the turn of the century are garbage, yet Jack Johnson somehow manages to slip through butterfly's analysis. :rolleyes:

At least he gives Jack Dempsey credit, which means I still have some respect for him....:kiss:

Lets face it Butterfly if John Sullivan and James Jefferies and all the other white fighters fought bums how is it that Jack Johnson who fought around the same time period fought good competition....

Boxing for the most part around that time was based on toughness alone. There was next to no skill involved. Corbett came around and showed skill to overcome disadvantages, and Johnson expanded on that, using an arsenal of skill, as well as strength in boxing. This is why Johnson stands head and shoulders above any boxer that came before him.

In addition, Johnson had the unique claim of holding both colored and world heavyweight championships. This means that he fought and beat the best black and white fighters of his time. Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, and Jeffries although they may have beaten a couple of blacks, mainly beat the high crop of white heavyweights alone.

Johnson is head-to-head better than these guys, and has the better resume as well, period.

:boxing:

God, you're one dumbass. Even if you're pretending.

Before calling someone a "dumbass", maybe you should reread Achilles post in more depth. The reason why I asked that question was because of the fact that Kid compared what we think of farm animals today to what many white Americans thought of blacks 70-400 years ago. Since the view of most white Americans towards blacks have changed, I questioned since Kid made that analogy if he thought that carried over to what I suspected he would think the perception of farm animals would be 200 years from now. I didn't really think that he thought that farm animals were human beings, I just gave an example of what his post presented itself as because of the comparison.

Before calling someone a "dumbass", maybe you should reread Achilles post in more depth. The reason why I asked that question was because of the fact that Kid compared what we think of farm animals today to what many white Americans thought of blacks 70-400 years ago. Since the view of most white Americans towards blacks have changed, I questioned since Kid made that analogy if he thought that carried over to what I suspected he would think the perception of farm animals would be 200 years from now. I didn't really think that he thought that farm animals were human beings, I just gave an example of what his post presented itself as because of the comparison.

Then you should have posted this in regards to his post. You wouldn't have looked like a dumbass then:fing02:

Somehow a guy who can fight for 76 rounds and 4 hours, bare-knuckle whether ****ty competition or not doesn't seem like he should be called a bad fighter...

Here's a good vid=

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3038053989864698037&q=John+L+Sullivan&hl=en

didn't he died in 1918?

Boxing for the most part around that time was based on toughness alone. There was next to no skill involved. Corbett came around and showed skill to overcome disadvantages, and Johnson expanded on that, using an arsenal of skill, as well as strength in boxing. This is why Johnson stands head and shoulders above any boxer that came before him.

In addition, Johnson had the unique claim of holding both colored and world heavyweight championships. This means that he fought and beat the best black and white fighters of his time. Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, and Jeffries although they may have beaten a couple of blacks, mainly beat the high crop of white heavyweights alone.

Johnson is head-to-head better than these guys, and has the better resume as well, period.

:boxing:

Correct me if I'm wrong but the "couple of blacks" Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, and Jeffries beat were the best of the black fighters..I'm assuming this because seeing as how black fighters were looked down upon so fiercely it only makes sense that if a black fighter even got a crack at a white fighter he must have been pretty good....So wouldn't that mean that Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, and Jeffries all fought the best of both leagues?

Also just because Johnson was a "better" boxer then Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, and Jeffries that doesn't mean he was a better fighter..Its not always the boxer who wins the fight..

Then you should have posted this in regards to his post. You wouldn't have looked like a dumbass then:fing02:

Well, since you're the only one who responded to it in that way, then more than likely every one else understood what I was trying to say, which would make you the "dumbass", wouldn't it?

I don't get what you're saying.

im saying if your a soldier in a dictatorship in the times off war, you have to do what you are told even if it includes killing enocent.

ask yourselve, would you kill a guy to avoid being killed yourselve? i would

Well, since you're the only one who responded to it in that way, then more than likely every one else understood what I was trying to say, which would make you the "dumbass", wouldn't it?

nope, didnt understand it before i read your explanation

Correct me if I'm wrong but the "couple of blacks" Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, and Jeffries beat were the best of the black fighters..I'm assuming this because seeing as how black fighters were looked down upon so fiercely it only makes sense that if a black fighter even got a crack at a white fighter he must have been pretty good....So wouldn't that mean that Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, and Jeffries all fought the best of both leagues?

Also just because Johnson was a "better" boxer then Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, and Jeffries that doesn't mean he was a better fighter..Its not always the boxer who wins the fight..

I don't consider beating one or two as beating "the best". To beat "the best", you have to beat all the best. Johnson did that, Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, and Jeffries did not.

You're right in saying that the boxer does not always win the fight, but if all you have going for you is braun, then you just don't have that much going for you.Johnson was not only the beter boxer than the other four mentioned, he was the more complete fighter, IMO (even though some people will have you believed that Jeffries was more complete). Brawling with someone like Johnson just would not be enough when he has all those tools to combat that.

Johnson is better, period.

im saying if your a soldier in a dictatorship in the times off war, you have to do what you are told even if it includes killing enocent.

ask yourselve, would you kill a guy to avoid being killed yourselve? i would

Well, I wasn't talking about soldiers. I was talking about German citizens.

:nonono: @ all this arguements.

nope, didnt understand it before i read your explanation

Well, then you should have read in between the lines as well.:rolleyes:

:nonono: @ all this arguements.

Yeah, pitiful ain't it?:nonono:

Yeah, pitiful ain't it?:nonono:yup. but oh well. nothing i can do about it http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/DaDeHustLa/Smileys/dunnosmiley.gif

yup. but oh well. nothing i can do about it http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/DaDeHustLa/Smileys/dunnosmiley.gif

Neither can I.:D

Neither can I.:Dyes you can http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/DaDeHustLa/Smileys/talktohand.gif

yes you can http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/DaDeHustLa/Smileys/talktohand.gif

Like what?

Like what?like staying quiet and avoid any arguement. http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/DaDeHustLa/Smileys/dunnosmiley.gif

like staying quiet and avoid any arguement. http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/DaDeHustLa/Smileys/dunnosmiley.gif

That wouldn't be any fun, though.:banana:

Well, I wasn't talking about soldiers. I was talking about German citizens.

whats your point?

even as a citizent it you would get prison for helping jews (and still many did).

whats your point?

even as a citizent it you would get prison for helping jews (and still many did).

Most German civilians at the time didn't know Jews were getting gassed and burned is what I'm saying.

Well, since you're the only one who responded to it in that way, then more than likely every one else understood what I was trying to say, which would make you the "dumbass", wouldn't it?

Who's everyone else? I was the only one that replied, dumbass:loser:

Most German civilians at the time didn't know Jews were getting gassed and burned is what I'm saying.

Bull**** tons of them knew it was going on. Hilter had written about doing it in advance. It shouldn't have been a shock. Germans were lying if they said they didn't know, they were just sheep taking orders. They were just as guilty for not revolting.

Here's what we have on John L. Sullivan:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Lodge/6525/JohnLSullivan.htm

Who's everyone else? I was the only one that replied, dumbass:loser:

Exactly, since you only replied and no one else did, then they understood it, and you didn't, "dumbass"!:loser:

Bull**** tons of them knew it was going on. Hilter had written about doing it in advance. It shouldn't have been a shock. Germans were lying if they said they didn't know, they were just sheep taking orders. They were just as guilty for not revolting.

Do you wanna provide sources for that claim, buddy?

I wrote out a big response to this and of course it got messed up last night and did not send.

Basically if you call Sullivan a piece of ****, then you must say the same for a major chunk of the american population at the time. Times were so different and racism was rampant and considered an acceptable philosophy by many. Doesn't mean it was ever right, but it doesn't make everyone who bought into it an evil piece of ****, just impressionable (as most people are) and ignorant (ditto).

Basically if you call Sullivan a piece of ****, then you must say the same for a major chunk of the american population at the time.

Then so be it.:cool:

As long as you make that distinction, fine with me.

As long as you make that distinction, fine with me.

Fine.:boxing:

hmmm.......

hmmm.......

Now I'm a little ignorant of how to do that.:o

do what???..

do what???..

I'm on yahoo now and I don't know what to do.:o

so your telling me you've never used yahoo messenger?? or....


your just lazy to accept me.

so your telling me you've never used yahoo messenger?? or....


your just lazy to accept me.

I'm afraid so.:o

I'm afraid so.:o:rofl: oh nevermind then :p

:rofl: oh nevermind then :p

Just tell me how.

Just tell me how.dont worry...

This girl is incredible. I want to kiss her stomach (and work my way down). That is all.


are you serious??
she looks like a body builder

This girl is incredible. I want to kiss her stomach (and work my way down). That is all.

There are SO many better pics of her than that. Such as...


http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd182/sinpeace69/Selena%20Spice/7154.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/jose_juarez91766/Selena%20Spice/selena-spice-14.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/jr96127/AndreaRinconSelenaSpicebooty_battle.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p20/swelone_bucket/m_2bc3ade02eb4a4e2da58e6f57d4a06a8.jpg

To the guy who said she looks like a bodybuilder, that's about enough out of you.

she kinda looks like barrera

i've seen many sites but they say '' according to many sources ''.

anyone knows?

I placed in in my book:

John L. Sullivan: The Career of the First Gloved Heavyweight Champion.

I'd also check out Tracy Callis' version on the cyberboxingzone.com