Introduction

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http://coxscorner.tripod.com/bleonard.html

Benny Leonard, The Ghetto Wizard…“The Brainiest of All Boxers”

By: Monte D. Cox






Benny Leonard was not only one of the greatest lightweights of all time, he was one of history’s greatest pound for pound fighters. Benny, a Jewish boxer born Benjamin Leiner, turned pro at age 15. He won the World Lightweight Championship at age 21 and held it for nearly 7 years between 1917-1925 when he retired unbeaten as champion while at the peak of his power. His official record is 85-5-1 121 No Decisions with 69 knockouts. His record with newspaper verdicts, according to one source, is 180-21-6-6ND 69 Ko’s.

Bodner stated, (1997 pp 55-56) "Leonard had a truly remarkable record. He was one of the greatest master boxers of all time."

The Ghetto Wizard was a fleet footed mobile boxer with a strong punch and liked to set a fast pace. He had excellent hand speed and was a clever two-handed hitter. He had a piston like left jab, a classic right cross and was an accomplished combination puncher. Leonard also loved to train and never entered the ring in less than top condition. He made a real science of the sport studying feints, shifts, and defensive moves for hours at a time in the gym. He was master who rarely lost a round in the vast majority of his fights.

Gilbert Odd wrote, (1974 p 126) “Leonard was coolness itself in the ring, finishing off a beaten opponent with cold fury, recovering quickly when hurt and talking himself out of trouble. Because he punched correctly he never suffered a hand injury; because he knew how to defend himself, he usually left the ring unmarked, because he kept himself in peak of condition he could travel ten fast rounds and look as fresh as when he started.”

His competition reads like a who’s who of the great fighters of the teens and twenties including; Johnny Dundee (Featherweight champion 1922-1923, 1923-1924 and Jr. Lightweight champion 1921-1923 and 1923-1924), the great rope fighter whom he met 8 times; Freddie Welsh (Lightweight champion 1914-1916) from whom he won the title, clever former champion Willie Ritchie (lightweight champion 1912-1914), Johnny Kilbane (Featherweight Champion 1912-1923), hard hitting Rocky Kansas (Lightweight champion 1925-1926) and the great southpaw Lew Tendler who is considered one of the best fighters to have never won a title. Leonard also defeated top lightweight contenders such as Ritchie Mitchell, Patsy Cline, Joe Welling and left hook artist Charley White.

Leonard was in many ways the Muhammad Ali of the 135-pounders, defeating what Nat Fleischer called, “a field of the greatest lightweights that ever appeared at one time in the division” (Suster p 55). When Leonard was fighting there were nearly 90 fight clubs in New York State and 20 fight cards a week in New York City. Boxing in the teens and twenties, along with baseball, was the most popular sport in America. There were more competitors and therefore a larger talent pool. Leonard came along when the lightweight division was stacked full of highly skilled fighters and punchers and he was the best among them. He fought them all and fought often. The year he won the title he fought 29 times. Leonard was a very smart, clever, and experienced fighter.

Jersey Jones agrees saying (Ring Magazine Jul. 1947), “Leonard was one of the all time greats of the ring. A magnificent boxer, a deadly puncher, a brilliant ring strategist, and an extraordinary showman, Benny had to be a real champion in every sense of the word, to rule over the most formidable array of challengers in the annals of the lightweight division.”

One of Leonard's toughest opponent's was the great southpaw slugger Lew Tendler. On July 27, 1922, 60,000 screaming fans watched the two great fighters go at it in a 12 round non-title bout. In the first round a powerful left rocked Leonard. In the third Leonard's nose was bleeding. In the 8th Lew dropped Benny to one knee. Leonard was in trouble but Benny started talking to him and convinced him he wasn't hurt. Lew hesitated and Benny survived the round. It went the distance to a 12 round no-decision but Leonard would later say that Lew gave him "the worst licking I ever had in my life the first time we fought." In the rematch, for the championship the following year, Leonard proved he had learned his lesson.

Hype Igoe, wrote, NY World Jul. 25, 1923, “Benny Leonard is the brainiest of all boxers.” In the second Tendler fight, penned Igoe, "Leonard worked in circles around and toward the back of Tendler’s southpaw left so that Tendler was always shifting to get set again.” Leonard kept the southpaw off-balance and then countered effectively. “It was the finest job from any angle of boxing that this writer ever saw…and I don’t expect to see it duplicated.” Leonard easily won the 15 round decision and retained his title.

Ray Arcel, one of the greatest trainers of all time, concurs on Leonard’s ability to out-think his opponent’s, (Anderson pp 121, 148-149), “Boxing is brains over brawn. I don’t care how much ability you got, if you can’t think your just another bum in the park. People ask me who’s the greatest boxer I ever saw pound for pound. I hesitate to say, either Benny Leonard or Ray Robinson. But Leonard’s mental energy surpassed anyone else’s.”

Arcel continued, “Benny Leonard was a picture. He was the one fighter who I felt could name the round with anybody. He could make you do the things you didn’t want to do. If you were a counterpuncher he would make you lead. If you were aggressive he would make you back up. He knew were to hit you…If you look at his record you will see he always fought good fighters. If you didn’t know how to fight, nobody would match you with Benny Leonard” .

Nat Fleischer agrees, (1947 pp 2, 111), "Leonard had a hair-trigger brain. As he shifted about the ring, the fans could almost read his thoughts as he mapped out his plans of attack. An opponent had to be ever on the alert to avoid a quick knockout. Leonard knew his trade; knew it so thoroughly that almost invariably he could "call his shots," if and when the occasion warranted."

Bob Mee adds, (Boxing Heroes p 186), "Benny was a master boxer, a genius who completed his art and yet still went on re-inventing it. His simple message was "Think. Learn how to think!"

No opponent could ever make a mistake with Benny, for one mistake often meant a sudden end. Leonard in a bout against Featherweight champion Johnny Kilbane noticed in their first meeting that, “Johnny’s a great boxer, tricky as they make them. But I know just how and when to beat him. He has a double feint shift, but he leaves himself open for a flash of a second and that’s when I’ll get him.” Benny nailed him in the third and took Kilbane just as he predicted. It was the first time the clever Featherweight champion had ever been knocked out.

What Leonard could do when he turned on the heat was aptly demonstrated in his bout with Leo Johnson, one of the best black lightweights of the era. Leonard took a lot of pride in going through an entire bout without ever having his hair messed up. Someone suggested to Johnson that he go right up to Leonard and put his hand on his head and mess up his hair in order to infuriate him and get him off his game plan. Johnson did just that as the fighters met at ring center. When Johnson recovered consciousness he was told that it was one of the quickest knockouts of Leonard’s career.

One time heavyweight threat Harry Wills said, (Ring May 1948), “Benny Leonard was the best little man I ever saw. He liked to show his speed and outbox the other fellow. He also had a natural right hand… I picked Benny to beat Freddie Welsh, who was a very clever boy, Benny woke up to his right that night and knocked Welsh out.”

Many of his opponent’s commented that they were surprised by his hitting power. He won the title against Freddie Welsh on a 9th round knockout. It was the only time in 167 pro fights that Welsh was ever knocked out.

Perhaps his epoch battle against Richie Mitchell best defined his career. Leonard went right after Mitchell flooring him 3 times in the first round. Leonard, perhaps understandably, was a bit over-confident and let his guard down. Mitchell nailed him with a desperate, hurricane of a left hook right on the button. Benny crashed to the canvas. Leonard was hurt and barely beat a ten count. Richie moved in for the kill, but Benny covered up and rolled with the punches and survived to the bell.

Schulberg described what transpired in the next round as Mitchell attacked Benny who was still hurt and on his bicycle. “As he retreated his was talking to Mitchell (shades of Ali a half century later!), “Is that the best you can do? I thought you hit harder than that? I’ll put my hands down, what do you want to bet you can’t hit me? Come on if you think you got me hurt, why don’t you fight? You look awful slow to me Richie” (Book of Boxing p 309). Mitchell swung wildly missing and began to wear down by rounds end. In the fifth Leonard was up on his toes snapping Mitchell’s head back with left jabs and right crosses. Leonard floored Richie at the end of the round. In the following session Leonard gave Mitchell quite a beating and knocked him out to retain his title.

Leonard also challenged fighters above his normal weight winning a newspaper verdict over welterweight Ted “Kid” Lewis and challenged for the welterweight title against Jack Britton in 1922 flooring the bigger man in the 13th, and then in his eagerness knocked out Britton while he was down, thus losing on a disqualification.

Benny retired as lightweight champion in 1925 having bested all the topflight fighters of his class. The stock market crash of 1929 hurt his investments and he was forced to make a comeback in 1931. He won 18 in a row with only one draw when he ran into the young, fast and hard-hitting future welterweight champion Jimmy McLarnin who stopped him in 6. It was his last fight.

Leonard died on April 17, 1947 while refereeing a boxing match in New York. Gerald Suster wrote a fitting epitaph when he said, “He left behind him an astonishing legend of hard punching and ring cleverness. Decades went by in which aficionados argued over whether Benny Leonard or Joe Gans was the greatest pound for pound fighter of all time.”

Nat Fleischer considered Benny Leonard the # 2 all time lightweight in 1958. Charley Rose rated him # 1 in 1968. Herbert Goldman rated him # 1 in 1987. Cox’s Corner rates him at # 2 among all time lightweights.

Boxings first folk hero

whitaker is better

Introduction

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First of all, thank you for posting the footage of this legendary fighter. How anyone can deny the greatness of "The Ghetto Wizard" is beyond me. This fight with Tendler was a perfect showcase for Leonard's scientific artistry; that jab, the straight right, the uppercuts and combos, the timing, the handspeed, the footwork, the mobility, ...he had it all.

I rank him as one of the Top 3 Lightweights of all time, if not the all-time #1. The best 135 Lber was either Leonard, Gans, or Duran IMO....and all three would easily handle any lightweight fighting at the moment...of that much I am sure.

Thank you again.

First of all, thank you for posting the footage of this legendary fighter. How anyone can deny the greatness of "The Ghetto Wizard" is beyond me. This fight with Tendler was a perfect showcase for Leonard's scientific artistry; that jab, the straight right, the uppercuts and combos, the timing, the handspeed, the footwork, the mobility, ...he had it all.

I rank him as one of the Top 3 Lightweights of all time, if not the all-time #1. The best 135 Lber was either Leonard, Gans, or Duran IMO....and all three would easily handle any lightweight fighting at the moment...of that much I am sure.

Thank you again.
Thats cause he was jewish, We always try to create a freakin system and put it all to science, when we do anything

Thats cause he was jewish, We always try to create a freakin system and put it all to science, when we do anything

:lol1: Well, he did a damn fine job. ;)

Introduction

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great fight - thanks for posting that!

Thankfully Tendler was a southpaw or there was no way to tell the two apart in that old vid!

Interesting "no decision" rule they had. Sometimes I've really been annoyed to see champs lose on close decisions - the champ should always get the benefit of the doubt - but with some guys they'd just put their track shoes on and there would never be a fight... :nonono:

Introduction

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Wow, I'm impressed. Leonard just gained a fanboy!

Wow, I'm impressed. Leonard just gained a fanboy!

:lol1: See, not all of us old farts are senile. ;)

With this footage of him, i'm convinced he would lose to both whitaker and duran. He is good, but i think they are superior.

With this footage of him, i'm convinced he would lose to both whitaker and duran. He is good, but i think they are superior.

From the way that fight looked, it seems as if he probably could box Duran's ears off. Whitaker, I don't know.

From the way that fight looked, it seems as if he probably could box Duran's ears off. Whitaker, I don't know.

duran would constantly put pressure on him, i know which style beats my boy pernell whitaker, and benny's style doesn't do it.

A fast swarmer is the type of person that beats pernell. Chavez was a swarmer but he was slow as ****, thats why pernell schooled him. Benny Leonard has skills as proven in this video, but i see nothing about him thats gonna bother whitaker, nothing!

A fast swarmer is the type of person that beats pernell. Chavez was a swarmer but he was slow as ****, thats why pernell schooled him. Benny Leonard has skills as proven in this video, but i see nothing about him thats gonna bother whitaker, nothing!

You do have a good point there.

I do have that Leonard Tendler near complete lol.
All 12 rounds.

Introduction

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great video, he's truly one of the greatest fighters of all time.

Leonard, I think, could, as Butterfly put it, "box Duran's ears off. Of course, I'll also give my boy Roberto a damn good chance of beating him. But those two's styles would have made for a damn good fight for sure.

Whitaker? I love Pete and am one of his biggest fans. I followed him from the Haugen fight on and he had no equals in his era, IMO, and is an all-time great. However, Leonard had the skills to beat him; but it would be a bad style clash if you like action fights. It would be a complex chess match that only the true patrons and even experts of the sport could fully appreciate. It could go either way.

Leonard wasn't like Pep or Whitaker, Benny had pop in his punches so he could hold people off, if not knock them out. I would love to see more footage of him myself, but not sure how much is out there.

Just remember, Ray Arcel thought high of him, that should say something.

The idea that anybody might "box Duran's ears off" seems nuts to me. He moved *up* to fight a prime (Sugar Ray) Leonard and beat him pretty soundly. Duran could lose fights, but in his prime nobody could ever box his ears off.

(In anticipation of expected replies) The rematch with Leonard would never have happened with a guy like Benny Leonard who fought at a time when bicycling was strictly not acceptable in the ring. ;^>

The idea that anybody might "box Duran's ears off" seems nuts to me. He moved *up* to fight a prime (Sugar Ray) Leonard and beat him pretty soundly. Duran could lose fights, but in his prime nobody could ever box his ears off.

(In anticipation of expected replies) The rematch with Leonard would never have happened with a guy like Benny Leonard who fought at a time when bicycling was strictly not acceptable in the ring. ;^>

Well, here's the problem with that theory.....Leonard fought Duran's fight in Mmontreal because he, as a young kid whose balls had been questioned, got suckered into the machismo game.

Now, that being said, odds are you are right because Duran at 135 was much faster than Duran at 147 or 154 and Leonard (Benny)-Duran would have been a back and forth war, IMO.

The idea that anybody might "box Duran's ears off" seems nuts to me. He moved *up* to fight a prime (Sugar Ray) Leonard and beat him pretty soundly. Duran could lose fights, but in his prime nobody could ever box his ears off.

(In anticipation of expected replies) The rematch with Leonard would never have happened with a guy like Benny Leonard who fought at a time when bicycling was strictly not acceptable in the ring. ;^>

Yes, I see your point.

Durn did get out-boxed by Leonard in their second meeting though.

Just don't fight his fight.

The whole point of the video though was to show that fighters weren't as "crude" as some may believe them to be.

It's hard to judge talent vs. talent when comparing Eras.

I still think Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, etc. could learn how to play in today's era.

Yes, I see your point.

Durn did get out-boxed by Leonard in their second meeting though.

Just don't fight his fight.

The whole point of the video though was to show that fighters weren't as "crude" as some may believe them to be.

It's hard to judge talent vs. talent when comparing Eras.

I still think Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, etc. could learn how to play in today's era.

Yeah - that vid was something else. Not even a little bit crude - seriously gorgeous fighting!

I agree that if you can get Duran (or really any boxer) off their game you can beat them. But getting Duran off his game in his prime really meant "running for your life" and praying the ref/judges would tolerate it (and he wouldn't quit in disgust). I don't know anything more about Benny Leonard than what you've shown us, so IDK, but I at least like to think he would have fought a more straightup fight with a Duran than in the infamous rematch with the later Leonard ;^>

While Benny fought an obviously smart fight against that mean puncher, he also clearly wasn't riding a bicycle!

A prime trinidad couldn't KO a shot whitaker, benny leonard will not ko him,niether will duran.

Pep got ko'd by a guy from his own weight class, while whitaker moved up several weight classes and never got ko'd. Maybe his defence was indeed superior.

A prime trinidad couldn't KO a shot whitaker, benny leonard will not ko him,niether will duran.

Pep got ko'd by a guy from his own weight class, while whitaker moved up several weight classes and never got ko'd. Maybe his defence was indeed superior.

Sandy Saddler was p4p one of the hardest hitters in boxing history.

The poster Benny Leonard has to be Juy Juy........

Sandy Saddler was p4p one of the hardest hitters in boxing history.

Thats P4p, you have to realize that vasquez and trinidad are punchers and they are twice the size of whitaker. Neither man knocked him out, thats ultimate defence pal. Remember, vasquez was the guy that terry norris avoided, he knew he would see visions of his fight with simon brown and julian jackson, if he had to fight vasquez.

Thats P4p, you have to realize that vasquez and trinidad are punchers and they are twice the size of whitaker. Neither man knocked him out, thats ultimate defence pal. Remember, vasquez was the guy that terry norris avoided, he knew he would see visions of his fight with simon brown and julian jackson, if he had to fight vasquez.

Whitaker wasn't in a car crash either that almost killed him.

Benny Leonard and Julio Ceasar Chavez are very similar, both men are major legends and they had great careers. However, niether man defeated a truly GREAT fighter. Both of them beat alot of very good or good fighters. Pernell whitaker indeed beat another all time great named azumah nelson. Look you can say nelson wasnt that good at 135 or he was a bit past is peak, i dont care. The fact of the matter is that pernell beat an elite all time great, chavez and benny leonard did not do that.

Chavez beat 3 very good fighters like camacho, rosario and meldrick taylor. Benny leonard beat 3 very good fighters like tendler, welsh and kansas. Are either of these men elites in thier respective division, nope. Azumah nelson is considered top 5 in one division and top 10 in another. You cant get more elite than that.

Whitaker wasn't in a car crash either that almost killed him.

isnt it kinda funny that after the planecrash, willie pep was beating all of his worldclass opponents, except saddler?

isnt it kinda funny that after the planecrash, willie pep was beating all of his worldclass opponents, except saddler?

So are you saying that Pep was 100% after the plane crash?

Benny Leonard and Julio Ceasar Chavez are very similar, both men are major legends and they had great careers. However, niether man defeated a truly GREAT fighter. Both of them beat alot of very good or good fighters. Pernell whitaker indeed beat another all time great named azumah nelson. Look you can say nelson wasnt that good at 135 or he was a bit past is peak, i dont care. The fact of the matter is that pernell beat an elite all time great, chavez and benny leonard did not do that.

Chavez beat 3 very good fighters like camacho, rosario and meldrick taylor. Benny leonard beat 3 very good fighters like tendler, welsh and kansas. Are either of these men elites in thier respective division, nope. Azumah nelson is considered top 5 in one division and top 10 in another. You cant get more elite than that.

Pimp, just because you like to quote their ratings so often, I thought you'd like to take a look at this, which is The Ring's all-time featherweight rankings from their Jan 2002 issue;

1. Willie Pep
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sandy Saddler
4. Freddie Miller
5. Kid Chocolate
6. Johnny Kilbane (knocked out in three rounds by Benny Leonard)
7. Salvador Sanchez
8. Alexis Arguello
9. Eusibio Pedroza
10. Johnny Dundee
11. Terry McGovern
12. George Dixon
13. Vicente Saldivar
14. Chalky Wright
15. Azumah Nelson
16. Petey Sarron
17. Battling Battalino
18. Jim Driscoll
19. Abe Attell
20. Baby Arizmendi

Just reading up on that Leonard/Kilbane fight, and I see that it was quite hyped back in them days and there's lots of info on it, which would be understandable considering it pitted the lightweight & featherweight champions against each other...Both are spoken of very highly by the press and with plenty of respect during the buildup to the proceedings (both also reported in great shape & confident), especially Kilbane, who suprisingly enough was "installed as an 8 to 5 favorite over Benny Leonard" (Washington Post, July25th, 1917).

Come fight time, Kilbane was reportedly not much of a match for Leonard on that night, as all the reports I'm reading states that the brief fight was very one-sided in Leonard's favour ("Leonard gave Kilbane the worst beating of his career", so says the Modesto Evening News) before a final right cross to the chin in the third ended the drubbing and brought the towel in from Kilbane's corner.

Interesting to note that this Leonard/Kilbane fight happened shortly after (two plus months) Kilbane had just outboxed the then-reigning lightweight champion, Freddie Welsh, in a ten round bout, and that performance by Kilbane against Welsh had obviously shown that he was capable of competing with the best at lightweight during that time.

Pimp, just because you like to quote their ratings so often, I thought you'd like to take a look at this, which is The Ring's all-time featherweight rankings from their Jan 2002 issue;

1. Willie Pep
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sandy Saddler
4. Freddie Miller
5. Kid Chocolate
6. Johnny Kilbane (knocked out in three rounds by Benny Leonard)
7. Salvador Sanchez
8. Alexis Arguello
9. Eusibio Pedroza
10. Johnny Dundee
11. Terry McGovern
12. George Dixon
13. Vicente Saldivar
14. Chalky Wright
15. Azumah Nelson
16. Petey Sarron
17. Battling Battalino
18. Jim Driscoll
19. Abe Attell
20. Baby Arizmendi

Just reading up on that Leonard/Kilbane fight, and I see that it was quite hyped back in them days and there's lots of info on it, which would be understandable considering it pitted the lightweight & featherweight champions against each other...Both are spoken of very highly by the press and with plenty of respect during the buildup to the proceedings (both also reported in great shape & confident), especially Kilbane, who suprisingly enough was "installed as an 8 to 5 favorite over Benny Leonard" (Washington Post, July25th, 1917).

Come fight time, Kilbane was reportedly not much of a match for Leonard on that night, as all the reports I'm reading states that the brief fight was very one-sided in Leonard's favour ("Leonard gave Kilbane the worst beating of his career", so says the Modesto Evening News) before a final right cross to the chin in the third ended the drubbing and brought the towel in from Kilbane's corner.

Interesting to note that this Leonard/Kilbane fight happened shortly after (two plus months) Kilbane had just outboxed the then-reigning lightweight champion, Freddie Welsh, in a ten round bout, and that performance by Kilbane against Welsh had obviously shown that he was capable of competing with the best at lightweight during that time.

isnt it ironic that azumah nelson is in the ring's 80 best of the last 80 years, and those guys are not. Maybe in a pound for pound prespective, he is a better boxer than any guy leonard has ever beat. When i hear the name azumah nelson, all time great comes with it.

Azumah nelson was a world class opponent till the age of 40 pal. He arguably beat a prime genaro hernandez at the age of 39, many people think he was on the short end of the stick in that one. Sure his draw with fenech was controversial, he beat him in the rematch didnt he? Azumah wasnt even in his prime by then.

The azumah nelson from 84-90 is an all time great. A green nelson took sanchez the distance, he was green as grass back then.

You want to use ring as a source, lol. They clearly think pernell whitaker is better than your gods ike williams, carlos ortiz, tony canzonori and joe gans. Guess what pal, he is techincally superior to them all.

So are you saying that Pep was 100% after the plane crash?

before the planecrash he was soundly defeated by sammy angott. Pernell in his prime only gets robbed, no one soundly defeats that virgina pea.

before the planecrash he was soundly defeated by sammy angott. Pernell in his prime only gets robbed, no one soundly defeats that virgina pea.

How do you know he was "soundly" defeated?:rolleyes:

How do you know he was "soundly" defeated?:rolleyes:

do research kid, willie pep aint no defensive master, pernell whitaker is.

Respect Him!

do research kid, willie pep aint no defensive master, pernell whitaker is.

Respect Him!

:owned: ....

:owned: ....

willie pep wished his defense was as good. Floyd is fighting nowdays and he is the top slickster. why dont u ask him who is the better fighter between pep and whitaker, i can guarantee he would say its pernell.

Only those "experts" that adore italians from the old days will truly say pep is better.

Pep fought 2 guys in the ring 80 best of the last 80 years, pernell fought like 4.

isnt it ironic that azumah nelson is in the ring's 80 best of the last 80 years, and those guys are not. Maybe in a pound for pound prespective, he is a better boxer than any guy leonard has ever beat. When i hear the name azumah nelson, all time great comes with it.

Azumah nelson was a world class opponent till the age of 40 pal. He arguably beat a prime genaro hernandez at the age of 39, many people think he was on the short end of the stick in that one. Sure his draw with fenech was controversial, he beat him in the rematch didnt he? Azumah wasnt even in his prime by then.

The azumah nelson from 84-90 is an all time great. A green nelson took sanchez the distance, he was green as grass back then.

You want to use ring as a source, lol. They clearly think pernell whitaker is better than your gods ike williams, carlos ortiz, tony canzonori and joe gans. Guess what pal, he is techincally superior to them all.

First off, no I don't find it ironic how guys like Freddie Welsh & Johnny Kilbane weren't included in The Ring's "80 best of 80 years" issue (both appear in their all-time divisional rankings at 12th and 6th respectively...and in case you can't figure it out for yourself, by their "all-time rankings" they're ratings consist of those who fought from the beginning of the MoQ era and on) , which was indicated quite clearly in that issue as being their (or Detloff's) rating/opinion of the 80 best fighters since their first first issue dated Feb of 1922, which would obviously disqualify both Welsh & Kilbane from an appearance in that issue, because, you know...with the exception of the very last fight of each of their careers, they fought their entire career before The Ring came into being.

But speaking of irony and I'm only bringing this up because you brought up the fight in question, what I do find "ironic" is how the whole momemtum of the Hernandez/Nelson fight somehow changed completely once Nelson landed that right hand to Hernandez' throat well after the bell to end the 7th round...Up to that point in the fight Hernandez had things going his way and he held a very clear advantage over Nelson over the first half of the fight by boxing him and keeping him out at the end of the jab (Nelson came on "strong" after that, Hernandez became more reluctant, and that "rally" by Nelson made it very close at the end of twelve).

Azumah Nelson was a very good fighter, though, and I would agree that his longevity at the upper levels of boxing makes him a "great" fighter in history. But, having followed him all throughout his pro career, there wasn't one occasion where I ever thought of him as one of the very elite p4p fighters in the sport at any time in his career, as he was always, at the very most, one of the guys that would fill out a bottom position on such a list of ten from me...While Nelson has defeated his share of "good" opponents thoughout out his career (and not always convincingly...a few very close fights went his way, as well), especially at 130, I'm just cross-referencing his record against the year-end p4p rankings from his time, and I see that he's never once won a fight against someone who was considered one of the p4p ten best in the sport at the time he fought them. If you're counting Jeff Fenech as Nelson's best win then you got to know that that win by Nelson was coming against a fighter who himself was also likely past his best, suffering from well known chronic hand problems, and may have even lost his "heart" for the sport after the first Nelson fight, as I've heard reported before (in addition to looking "off" right from the get-go in the rematch, Fenech also didn't do anything of note after the Nelson fight besides get himself knocked out a couple of times by guys that he likely eats up at his best).

And hey...a "green" Nelson may have given Sanchez a good fight before Sal took over late, but Sanchez was known to do that in the past, as evidence by the Patrick Ford fight, who incidently and if he had a little "luck" on his side, could've very well gotten the decision over Sanchez in their fight as he confused and bettered Sal for much of the first half of the fight with his patient outside boxing from long range and behind the jab & legs...Sanchez eventually figured out Ford's style (much like he did Nelson's) and had some good success in winning most of the rounds in the late goings, but it was still a very tight and close fight when the 15 rounds were up. Whether it be against an inexperienced pro (Nelson, Ford, and Laporte, who also gave Sanchez some anxious moments early in that fight before Sal again took over late) or against another who wasn't expected to challenge him much (Cowdell), Sanchez had his tendencies to fight down to just above his opponent's level, as well as a proven ability to fight amazingly well when the odds weren't so much in his favour (Gomez and Lopez).

While I'm not meaning to say that both Ford & Nelson were on the same level at featherweight, because I, no doubt, do have a higher opinion of Nelson as a fighter, I also can't say that I'm nearly impressed enough to say that Sanchez/Nelson fight is any great indication that Nelson was an elite "all-timer" at featherweight when a percieved inferior fighter (Ford) at roughly the same career stage is also going right down to the wire with Sanchez and if anything is even doing better against Sal than did Nelson...Beyond the Sanchez fight, a victory over a washed up Gomez and wins over the likes of Villasana, Cabrera and Cowdell just don't do it for me, and Nelson is just not someone I'm ever going to pick as one of the ten greatest featherweight or anything overly close to that...Top 20, maybe.

And I only brought up The Ring's (Detloff's) featherweight ratings because you seem to spout off about their (Detloff's) "top 80" issue with much frequency and seem to like to back up your own "opinion" with their's in that issue, so I thought you'd maybe like to take a gander at another one of their all-time ratings that were pertaining to the subject...But on that topic and seeing as you how felt the need to state that The Ring "clearly think Pernell Whitaker is better than your god Ike Williams, etc., etc.", you do know that they have put out other special ratings issues in recent years, including their "top 50 of the last 50 years" that was published in the late 1990's and features at least Ike Williams (slotted in 10th) being rated ahead of Whitaker (slotted in 21st) in that issue?

Anyways, I don't know if I asked you any questions in this post, but if I did, please keep up your normal practice of not answering them directly because this is going to be my last post to you for quite a time, as I have absolutely no immediate interest at all in having any further discussions with you on here.

First off, no I don't find it ironic how guys like Freddie Welsh & Johnny Kilbane weren't included in The Ring's "80 best of 80 years" issue (both appear in their all-time divisional rankings at 12th and 6th respectively...and in case you can't figure it out for yourself, by their "all-time rankings" they're ratings consist of those who fought from the beginning of the MoQ era and on) , which was indicated quite clearly in that issue as being their (or Detloff's) rating/opinion of the 80 best fighters since their first first issue dated Feb of 1922, which would obviously disqualify both Welsh & Kilbane from an appearance in that issue, because, you know...with the exception of the very last fight of each of their careers, they fought their entire career before The Ring came into being.

But speaking of irony and I'm only bringing this up because you brought up the fight in question, what I do find "ironic" is how the whole momemtum of the Hernandez/Nelson fight somehow changed completely once Nelson landed that right hand to Hernandez' throat well after the bell to end the 7th round...Up to that point in the fight Hernandez had things going his way and he held a very clear advantage over Nelson over the first half of the fight by boxing him and keeping him out at the end of the jab (Nelson came on "strong" after that, Hernandez became more reluctant, and that "rally" by Nelson made it very close at the end of twelve).

Azumah Nelson was a very good fighter, though, and I would agree that his longevity at the upper levels of boxing makes him a "great" fighter in history. But, having followed him all throughout his pro career, there wasn't one occasion where I ever thought of him as one of the very elite p4p fighters in the sport at any time in his career, as he was always, at the very most, one of the guys that would fill out a bottom position on such a list of ten from me...While Nelson has defeated his share of "good" opponents thoughout out his career (and not always convincingly...a few very close fights went his way, as well), especially at 130, I'm just cross-referencing his record against the year-end p4p rankings from his time, and I see that he's never once won a fight against someone who was considered one of the p4p ten best in the sport at the time he fought them. If you're counting Jeff Fenech as Nelson's best win then you got to know that that win by Nelson was coming against a fighter who himself was also likely past his best, suffering from well known chronic hand problems, and may have even lost his "heart" for the sport after the first Nelson fight, as I've heard reported before (in addition to looking "off" right from the get-go in the rematch, Fenech also didn't do anything of note after the Nelson fight besides get himself knocked out a couple of times by guys that he likely eats up at his best).

And hey...a "green" Nelson may have given Sanchez a good fight before Sal took over late, but Sanchez was known to do that in the past, as evidence by the Patrick Ford fight, who incidently and if he had a little "luck" on his side, could've very well gotten the decision over Sanchez in their fight as he confused and bettered Sal for much of the first half of the fight with his patient outside boxing from long range and behind the jab & legs...Sanchez eventually figured out Ford's style (much like he did Nelson's) and had some good success in winning most of the rounds in the late goings, but it was still a very tight and close fight when the 15 rounds were up. Whether it be against an inexperienced pro (Nelson, Ford, and Laporte, who also gave Sanchez some anxious moments early in that fight before Sal again took over late) or against another who wasn't expected to challenge him much (Cowdell), Sanchez had his tendencies to fight down to just above his opponent's level, as well as a proven ability to fight amazingly well when the odds weren't so much in his favour (Gomez and Lopez).

While I'm not meaning to say that both Ford & Nelson were on the same level at featherweight, because I, no doubt, do have a higher opinion of Nelson as a fighter, I also can't say that I'm nearly impressed enough to say that Sanchez/Nelson fight is any great indication that Nelson was an elite "all-timer" at featherweight when a percieved inferior fighter (Ford) at roughly the same career stage is also going right down to the wire with Sanchez and if anything is even doing better against Sal than did Nelson...Beyond the Sanchez fight, a victory over a washed up Gomez and wins over the likes of Villasana, Cabrera and Cowdell just don't do it for me, and Nelson is just not someone I'm ever going to pick as one of the ten greatest featherweight or anything overly close to that...Top 20, maybe.

And I only brought up The Ring's (Detloff's) featherweight ratings because you seem to spout off about their (Detloff's) "top 80" issue with much frequency and seem to like to back up your own "opinion" with their's in that issue, so I thought you'd maybe like to take a gander at another one of their all-time ratings that were pertaining to the subject...But on that topic and seeing as you how felt the need to state that The Ring "clearly think Pernell Whitaker is better than your god Ike Williams, etc., etc.", you do know that they have put out other special ratings issues in recent years, including their "top 50 of the last 50 years" that was published in the late 1990's and features at least Ike Williams (slotted in 10th) being rated ahead of Whitaker (slotted in 21st) in that issue?

Anyways, I don't know if I asked you any questions in this post, but if I did, please keep up your normal practice of not answering them directly because this is going to be my last post to you for quite a time, as I have absolutely no immediate interest at all in having any further discussions with you on here.

how was gomez washed up, it was only his 2nd loss. Dont worry pernell still has chavez. If you dont count chavez as an elite all timer, then there is somethign wrong with you.

Chavez vs whitaker is like one of the most important fights ever. This was the last time that two men Literally fought each other to determine who is #1 pound for pound in the world. You cant have a superfight bigger than that. Everyone wanted to see these two legends go at it and determine who is superior. Yogi, i think pernell proved to you that he was indeed superior to his dance partner, the Great julio cesar chavez.

azumah nelson is top 10 at featherweight, i have talked with many people regarding this and they usually hold nelson in a higher regard than the people u are bragging about.

When i do these debates, its just for fun. If you want to cry about it and say that you are done talking, then go ahead.

In my honest opinion, i think that the way you guys rank ur top p4p boxers of all times, is based on the amount of respect from the writers of thier own era. You are a hockey fan like me, maurice richard was the big rockstar in his days and everybody loved him, the guy has a huge legacy. Many "experts" rank him among the best players of all times. Would i call him a better overall hockey player than jagr or frosberg, no way, dream on. They are by far, superior. I still respect the rocket though, hes important to the history of the sport.