Canadian Tommy Burns stands 5"7 and weight about 180lbs, the shortest of Heavyweight champions who reign from 1906-1908, he defend his title longer, 11 times, only Louis and Holmes defend it more, he has this record of KO streaks in title defenses, but where does he rate, among boxing fans, he's nowhere near the Top 15, I would rate him above Patterson but in a mythical match up, could you imagine Burns taking on 250lbs monsters of today.

Canadian Tommy Burns stands 5"7 and weight about 180lbs, the shortest of Heavyweight champions who reign from 1906-1908, he defend his title longer, 11 times, only Louis and Holmes defend it more, he has this record of KO streaks in title defenses, but where does he rate, among boxing fans, he's nowhere near the Top 15, I would rate him above Patterson but in a mythical match up, could you imagine Burns taking on 250lbs monsters of today.


nope.

He fought and beat men bigger than him in his day, but still most of these guys were below 200 lbs and often under 6ft. He was good for his time but I can't see him lasting in the division beyond the 1930's.

Burns was one badass little guy but I dunno how competitive he'd be against someone like Vitali Klitschko or Lennox Lewis at only 5'7". That's an entire foot of height difference, and Vitali and Lennox were no lumbering groundsloths.

Still, I don't think he gets his dues these days. Not one of the greatest heavyweights ever, but certainly a fighter who deserves more attention historically.

There is some quality footage that exists of Burns which presents an accurate depiction of his style and abilities.

Pound for pound he was an explosive puncher in his day, but he had an outdated old fashioned style and would be destroyed by guys like Joe Louis, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson or Lennox Lewis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhfU-Qi4Blw

Sabbath,
Thanks for the You-Tube link....that was a neat video clip. When I saw Burns standing right beside the guy on the ground while the ref counted, I wondered if those old time fighters ever "put the bad mouthin'" on their fallen foe? I can imagine if you're that close, some funny stuff could be said.

As for Tommy Burns, if he were active today, his hands have to come way up. He's not an Ali type super reflex guy who can afford to stand in front of guys who can whack. Of course, he would be a lightheavy / cruiserweight. NO SHOT at anybody in the top 25-30 heavyweights today, weak as the division is.

I always felt that he and Marvin Hart were the 2 most overlooked historical heavyweight champs.

Sabbath,
Thanks for the You-Tube link....that was a neat video clip. When I saw Burns standing right beside the guy on the ground while the ref counted, I wondered if those old time fighters ever "put the bad mouthin'" on their fallen foe? I can imagine if you're that close, some funny stuff could be said.

As for Tommy Burns, if he were active today, his hands have to come way up. He's not an Ali type super reflex guy who can afford to stand in front of guys who can whack. Of course, he would be a lightheavy / cruiserweight. NO SHOT at anybody in the top 25-30 heavyweights today, weak as the division is.

I always felt that he and Marvin Hart were the 2 most overlooked historical heavyweight champs.

marvin hart is without doudt the least known linear heavyweight champion of the gloved era.
but this is in part due to the way he gained the title fighting jack root for james j. jeffries vacated title at jeffries choosing. (i believe jeffries chose root and hart as easy options if he wanted to regain the title at some later stage)
alot of good fighters were overlooked and after losing the title in his second defence to burns 7 months later hart did not prove he was a champion to a public who still classed jeffries as champ.

tommy burns did however gain some recognition as champion during his very active short lived time as champion.
and he also deserves some historical credit as a white boxer willing to put his title on the line against the great jack johnson at a time when all other white boxers used the race card to avoid such fighters.

but against todays heavy's only the really special old-time smaller heavyweight fighters would stand a chance and burns altough a very good champion was just not that special.

AJ53, I agree with you 100%.

marvin hart is without doudt the least known linear heavyweight champion of the gloved era.
but this is in part due to the way he gained the title fighting jack root for james j. jeffries vacated title at jeffries choosing. (i believe jeffries chose root and hart as easy options if he wanted to regain the title at some later stage)

To this day there's still some doubt & conflicting reports as to if Jeffries even gave his blessings to the Hart/Root fight as being for his vacated world championship, and you can find quotes from around the time stating that Jeffries did not give the honour of heavyweight champion to the winner of that fight...Those quotes/articles are especially prevailant in the couple years leading up to the Johnson fight, and here's one such example;

"The recent statement by James J. Jeffries that he never gave the title away, but took it into retirement with him, has caused no end of discussion among followers of pugilism. Those who were present at the Hart/Root fight, when Jeffries is said to have handed over the title to Hart, still insist that Jeffries stated positively after the fight that he was still heavyweight champion of the world." - Washington Post, Jan 17th, 1909

There's also an AP report published in a few papers from Jan 5th of that year (1909), which states in it that "Jeffries still claims championship" and "says he never gave his title to Marvin Hart when the latter defeated Jack Root."

Tommy still shares the record with Larry Holmes for consecutive KO's by a heavyweight champion with eight in a row.

I would have liked to have seen Burns fight Stanley Ketchell or Sam Langford as a better indication of his abilities. He was simply overmatched by Jack Johnson who was a true heavyweight while Burns was really a middleweight/light-heavyweight.

Canadian Tommy Burns stands 5"7 and weight about 180lbs, the shortest of Heavyweight champions who reign from 1906-1908, he defend his title longer, 11 times, only Louis and Holmes defend it more, he has this record of KO streaks in title defenses, but where does he rate, among boxing fans, he's nowhere near the Top 15, I would rate him above Patterson but in a mythical match up, could you imagine Burns taking on 250lbs monsters of today.

Also Ali, and Lewis defended it more as well.:rolleyes:

Tommy still shares the record with Larry Holmes for consecutive KO's by a heavyweight champion with eight in a row.

I would have liked to have seen Burns fight Stanley Ketchell or Sam Langford as a better indication of his abilities. He was simply overmatched by Jack Johnson who was a true heavyweight while Burns was really a middleweight/light-heavyweight.

A light heavyweight fight between Langford & Burns would have been interesting, and if it needed a title or two on the line, then what the hell...put Langford's Federation Francaise de Boxe or his National Sporting Club versions of the "world" light heavyweight title up for grabs (Langford also held the NSC "world" heavyweight title) in the fight.

A light heavyweight fight between Langford & Burns would have been interesting, and if it needed a title or two on the line, then what the hell...put Langford's Federation Francaise de Boxe or his National Sporting Club versions of the "world" light heavyweight title up for grabs (Langford also held the NSC "world" heavyweight title) in the fight.
Not to mention a battle of two Canadians.

Keeping with a patriotic theme have you seen Larry Gaines vs Primo Carnera? It's the first footage I've seen of Gaines, and the quality is excellent for the era. Not a bad resume with a KO win over Max Schmeling, a points win over Primo Carnera and a DQ win over George Godfrey.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hXzYH2ODO50

Also Ali, and Lewis defended it more as well.:rolleyes:

Ali defend it 9 times in his first reign and 10 times from 74'-78', also Lewis in his 2nd.reign and Tyson defend their HW titles 9 times too.

Not to mention a battle of two Canadians.

Keeping with a patriotic theme have you seen Larry Gaines vs Primo Carnera? It's the first footage I've seen of Gaines, and the quality is excellent for the era. Not a bad resume with a KO win over Max Schmeling, a points win over Primo Carnera and a DQ win over George Godfrey.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hXzYH2ODO50

Yep, I saw that footage of Gains just the other day, Sabbath, and you're right, the quality of the video is pretty damn good for being from that time.

And Gains...he looks pretty good in it, as well, although it'd be a little unfair to judge his skillset & abilities much beyond that based on that limited viewing of him. I still view him as one of the better second tier heavyweights of his era (behind only Schmeling, Sharkey, Godfrey, Baer, and maybe one or two others), as well as maybe one of the five, or at the very, very least (and I'm being quite conservative with this), ten best heavyweights that this country has given birth to throughout boxing's history...

A solid & very respectful career he had going for him, no doubt, and it's kind of a shame that, besides the Schmeling KO, Gains is best known as the black heavyweight who gave Dempsey a two round tattoo'ing in one (and only between the two?) sparring session for the Tunney rematch.

An interesting trivial sidenote about that Gains/Carnera fight is that with 71,000 people viewing it live, it may still to this day be the highest attended fight ever held on British soils...At least it held that distinction at the time it was held anyways and the "top of me head" can't recall any other ones offhand since then.

And Gains...he looks pretty good in it, as well, although it'd be a little unfair to judge his skillset & abilities much beyond that based on that limited viewing of him. I still view him as one of the better second tier heavyweights of his era (behind only Schmeling, Sharkey, Godfrey, Baer, and maybe one or two others), as well as maybe one of the five, or at the very, very least (and I'm being quite conservative with this), ten best heavyweights that this country has given birth to throughout boxing's history Tommy Burns, Larry Gains, Sam Langford, Earl Walls, Bob Cleroux, James J. Parker, George Chuvalo, Kirk Johnson...not a whole hell of alot off the top of my head to choose from.

Not quite sure where Willie Dewitt or Dave Semenko rank.

Tommy Burns, Larry Gains, Sam Langford, Earl Walls, Bob Cleroux, James J. Parker, George Chuvalo, Kirk Johnson...not a whole hell of alot off the top of my head to choose from.

Not quite sure where Willie Dewitt or Dave Semenko rank.

Yep, that's just about what this country's produced for heavyweights and if you add in the names of Jack Renault & Old Chocolate Godfrey then you'd have the top ten that I came up with about a year ago on a different site (Jack Munro, whose one of the select few Canadians who got a shot at the heavyweight title, got bumped for Kirk Johnson, as I remember).

And speaking of DeWitt, it may be a day late, but what the heck...Happy St. Valentine's Day Massacre;

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XPJNNYDF

Ouch! :eek: :(

Can you believe that it's been 20 years already?

P.S. You bringing up Sammy Semenko brings up a memory from his bio in regards to a photo of him squaring off menacingly with Ali, and if I'm not mistaken, I believe the bio also mentioned something about a possible sparring match between the two, whether that ever came off or not.

And speaking of DeWitt, it may be a day late, but what the heck...Happy St. Valentine's Day Massacre;

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XPJNNYDF

Ouch! :eek: :(

Can you believe that it's been 20 years already?

P.S. You bringing up Sammy Semenko brings up a memory from his bio in regards to a photo of him squaring off menacingly with Ali, and if I'm not mistaken, I believe the bio also mentioned something about a possible sparring match between the two, whether that ever came off or not.Dave Semenko and Ali fought an exhibition for charity in 1983. I wanted to post a picture of the fight but it is no longer available on the site I went to. Semenko speaks in detail about the bout in his autobiography.

I'll assume the upload is Cooper-Dewitt and yeah Ouch is about right. I've got that one on tape. Nice job on Willie's nose and had me believing for a very short while that Cooper might cause a ripple if not a splash in the heavyweight division.

I'll assume the upload is Cooper-Dewitt and yeah Ouch is about right. I've got that one on tape. Nice job on Willie's nose and had me believing for a very short while that Cooper might cause a ripple if not a splash in the heavyweight division.

As yet another Canadian who was quite high on DeWitt's prospects, I think that fight hurt me just as much as it did DeWitt, because at the time I envisioned DeWitt at least grabbing an alpha title, and truthfully I thought we'd eventually see him face Tyson in one of the potential bigger money fights from the division at that time...

Wishful thinking, I know, and who would've thunk DeWitt incapable of blocking a simple right hand.

Like you, I also thought Cooper would have done much more than he did at heavyweight (some of that had to do with Cooper being a fresh face in the division and an exciting one at that), and based on my memory of what the boxing mags were saying after that DeWitt fight (one article stands out, where the writers looked at five potential future challengers to Tyson, with Cooper being one of them) you & I wouldn't have been the only ones who had expected more from Cooper...Cooper very likely gets a title shot at Tyson late in 1987 if Carl Williams didn't upset the odds and pull off the upset against Cooper.

Never mind Louis, Tyson, Foreman and Lewis - Burns couldnt live with Bruno, Tubbs, Mercer and Morrison! Too old fashioned and small!

He is near the bottom of the list.

He is near the bottom of the list.

As yet another Canadian who was quite high on DeWitt's prospects, I think that fight hurt me just as much as it did DeWitt, because at the time I envisioned DeWitt at least grabbing an alpha title, and truthfully I thought we'd eventually see him face Tyson in one of the potential bigger money fights from the division at that time...

Wishful thinking, I know, and who would've thunk DeWitt incapable of blocking a simple right hand.I have a boxing magazine buried somewhere in my basement profiling the upcoming 1984 Olympics and Dewitt was touted quite highly and there was mention of him possibly meeting American hopeful Mike Tyson in the gold medal fight.

Call me a Canadian pessimist but I was never high on either Dewitt or Shawn O'Sullivan, his silver medalist counterpart. I sat at ringside and watched O'Sullivan 'KO' Tomas Garcia with a punch I swore missed by a foot. Donavan Boucher fought on the undercard and looked ten times more impressive to these eyes and it was no surprise to me anyway when Boucher obliterated O'Sullivan when they finally fought.

As for Dewitt, the Ken Lakusta war was all I needed to see to dismiss Willie as a potential contender Jackie McCoy or no Jackie McCoy.

One thing I'll say though. There is nothing more brutal than seeing a mediocre white Canadian guy getting blasted by a superior black American. Leonard-Lalonde, Cooper-DeWitt and O'Sullivan-Brown. Ouch. That's why we should stick to hockey and curling.