I am in the process of writing a letter that will be sent to Muhammad Ali. I feel startstruck just writing it and have no clue what to put in it.

I assume that some of you guys have written to boxers/famous people before.

Please could you guys help me along with it so I don't sound like an idiot.

All help appreciated.

I am in the process of writing a letter that will be sent to Muhammad Ali. I feel startstruck just writing it and have no clue what to put in it.

I assume that some of you guys have written to boxers/famous people before.

Please could you guys help me along with it so I don't sound like an idiot.

All help appreciated.

i dunno mate, ive sent a few emails to Peter Manfredo jr and got a few replys of him, but aint wrote any letters, but while we are on the subject of Ali, have you read his new book "The Soul of a Butterfly" ? im in the process of reading it, i aint a book person but im really enjoying reading it.

i dunno mate, ive sent a few emails to Peter Manfredo jr and got a few replys of him, but aint wrote any letters, but while we are on the subject of Ali, have you read his new book "The Soul of a Butterfly" ? im in the process of reading it, i aint a book person but im really enjoying reading it.

Not yet, I got it for christmas, but I've been reading a book about Marciano so I'm a bit tied up :D

I've heard that it's just about his mindset on life and religion etc. and not about him. Is that true?

EDIT: And what's Manfredo's email? I'm collecting autographs now so I may aswell ask for one.

I am in the process of writing a letter that will be sent to Muhammad Ali. I feel startstruck just writing it and have no clue what to put in it. If you want to feel starstruck, try meeting Ali like I did!

I'm not sure what your opinion of Ali is and what your purpose of writing to him is.

You have to remember that Ali has been asked a million times over about his fights. Also keep in mind Ali's boxing career highlights were half a lifetime away and to him a chapter in his life that is long ago closed.

Assuming you are a fan of Ali I would just let him know what he means/meant to you and verbalize your respect for him both inside and outside of the ring. Ali takes much pride in his actions outside of boxing and takes his role as a goodwill ambassador seriously. Make a point of wishing him and his family (wife Lonnie and kids) well.

Here's a couple pictures I took when I was with Ali. I'm in the process of scanning all of them.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/irene_005.jpg

If you want to feel starstruck, try meeting Ali like I did!

I'm not sure what your opinion of Ali is and what your purpose of writing to him is.

You have to remember that Ali has been asked a million times over about his fights. Also keep in mind Ali's boxing career highlights were half a lifetime away and to him a chapter in his life that is long ago closed.

Assuming you are a fan of Ali I would just let him know what he means/meant to you and verbalize your respect for him both inside and outside of the ring. Ali takes much pride in his actions outside of boxing and takes his role as a goodwill ambassador seriously. Make a point of wishing him and his family (wife Lonnie and kids) well.

Here's a couple pictures I took when I was with Ali. I'm in the process of scanning all of them.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/irene_005.jpg

I love Ali and he is my idol!

Being truthful, the main purpose of me writing to him is to get an autograph, but I also want show him how much the youth of today respect him and idolise him. You are truly lucky getting to meet him.

Thanks for the points Sabbath. I'll keep them in mind.

Not yet, I got it for christmas, but I've been reading a book about Marciano so I'm a bit tied up :D

I've heard that it's just about his mindset on life and religion etc. and not about him. Is that true?

EDIT: And what's Manfredo's email? I'm collecting autographs now so I may aswell ask for one.

ill get you it some time, i cant be assed to hunt it out 2nyt mate lol (dont let me forget) nah alis books about him and his thoughs and beleifs (spellings **** i know) i got it for christmas aswell, its a god book so far

If you want to feel starstruck, try meeting Ali like I did!

I'm not sure what your opinion of Ali is and what your purpose of writing to him is.

You have to remember that Ali has been asked a million times over about his fights. Also keep in mind Ali's boxing career highlights were half a lifetime away and to him a chapter in his life that is long ago closed.

Assuming you are a fan of Ali I would just let him know what he means/meant to you and verbalize your respect for him both inside and outside of the ring. Ali takes much pride in his actions outside of boxing and takes his role as a goodwill ambassador seriously. Make a point of wishing him and his family (wife Lonnie and kids) well.

Here's a couple pictures I took when I was with Ali. I'm in the process of scanning all of them.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/irene_005.jpg

When was that picture taken?

i dunno mate, ive sent a few emails to Peter Manfredo jr and got a few replys of him, but aint wrote any letters, but while we are on the subject of Ali, have you read his new book "The Soul of a Butterfly" ? im in the process of reading it, i aint a book person but im really enjoying reading it.

I read "Soul of a Butterfly"!

I have over a hundred boxers autographs I've gotten thru the mail. If you are looking to write for an autograph, PM me and I'll give you some pointers. But it helps that you are a fan of his; all my autographs are of fighters that I like or met. I try not to BS them, I tell them the truth and being a genuine fan, it sounds sincere.

Ali used to be pretty hard to get and I think as his diseases has progressed, I think it might be harder now. I know he used to send and hand out signed pamphlets on the muslim faith. I ended up just buying my autographed photo, as I never got a reply on the one letter I sent him.

When was that picture taken?August 18, 1994.

my dad has a picture with ali at a restaurant in 1970 i think

ill try to scan it up sometime

Thanks for the tips guys. Even if he doesn't reply, it would be great to know that he has read my letter.

I'm not that worried about it because I understand how ill he is.

I've scanned a few more pictures I have of meeting Ali. I took this one as Ali was signing his autograph for me.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/aliwhat.jpg

Right after Ali gave me his autograph, someone jokingly yelled out "here comes Mike Tyson". Ali's expression says it all.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/tyson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/champ.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/aligirl.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/alifan.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/dinner.jpg

Great pics Sabbath. You're truly a lucky man meeting Ali.

And Leonard lol. Cool pic in your sig :fing02:

Great pics Sabbath. You're truly a lucky man meeting Ali. And Leonard lol. Cool pic in your sig :fing02:

Ali and Leonard are small potatoes compared to meeting and talking with this living boxing legend. :D

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/billlarry.jpg

Ali and Leonard are small potatoes compared to meeting and talking with this living boxing legend. :D

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/billlarry.jpg

LMFAO Larry Merchant!

Where do you meet them all?

Where do you meet them all?

I got the complexion to get the connection.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/billgeorge-1.jpg

SABBATH & GEORGE CHUVALO

Ah, what a travesty...

Here's my buddy, Sabbath, getting to meet & greet some of the greatest * most famous fighters in history, and then here's me...I've met not much beyond Terry Jesmer & Roddy Batson in my lifetime.

Great pictures though, my friend.

Ah, what a travesty...

Here's my buddy, Sabbath, getting to meet & greet some of the greatest * most famous fighters in history, and then here's me...I've met not much beyond Terry Jesmer & Roddy Batson in my lifetime.

Great pictures though, my friend.Don't feel too bad. I can't imagine you had many opportunities growing up in Winnipeg.

Here's a couple more with Carmen Basilio and Marvis Frazier.

It's bad enough looking at these pictures of myself from the 90's that I've decided against posting a picture of the 17 year old Sabbath and Aaron Pryor from 1984. That one is best left unseen!

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/carmen.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/marv.jpg

Don't feel too bad. I can't imagine you had many opportunities growing up in Winnipeg.

Actually I grew up quite a bit north of Winnipeg, as I was born & raised in Flon Flon, so you can imagine my opportunities were even less so...Did meet a few fighters though, once I did move to Winnipeg in the mid 80's with Donny Lalonde being the most famous of the bunch, or really the only one with a household name beyond the Canadian scene.

But growing up in Flin Flon did allow me to meet a large number of NHL hockey players like Bobby Clarke (of course...up until about '81 or '82, he used to come back home every summer for the fastball tournmanet), Rocket Richard, Wayne Gretzky, Pat Lafontaine, Guy Lafleur (he actually approached me outside the hockey rink up there one time, as he was looking for some conversation, I guess, while he smoked his cancer stick), Steve Shutt, Jari Kurri, Marty McSorley, Mike Modano, Theo Fleury, etc., etc., etc...Grew up and was childhood friends with Ken Baumgartner (I STILL feel bad for what we did to his little brother, Mark), and was later a buddy of sorts with Reid Simpson (partied a bunch at his place on the outskirts of town, including one rather memorable Halloween bash), so I got the chance to meet some NHL players through them two guys...

Oh, and Darwin McPherson (WHL & briefly, IHL tough guy from Flin Flon) once introduced me to Link Gaetz at a party in Flin Flon one time, and about two minutes later Link was guzzling the salt & pepper straight down like the friggin nutcase that he was and still is.

Actually I grew up quite a bit north of Winnipeg, as I was born & raised in Flon Flon, so you can imagine my opportunities were even less so...Did meet a few fighters though, once I did move to Winnipeg in the mid 80's with Donny Lalonde being the most famous of the bunch, or really the only one with a household name beyond the Canadian scene.

But growing up in Flin Flon did allow me to meet a large number of NHL hockey players like Bobby Clarke (of course...up until about '81 or '82, he used to come back home every summer for the fastball tournmanet), Rocket Richard, Wayne Gretzky, Pat Lafontaine, Guy Lafleur (he actually approached me outside the hockey rink up there one time, as he was looking for some conversation, I guess, while he smoked his cancer stick), Steve Shutt, Jari Kurri, Marty McSorley, Mike Modano, Theo Fleury, etc., etc., etc...Grew up and was childhood friends with Ken Baumgartner (I STILL feel bad for what we did to his little brother, Mark), and was later a buddy of sorts with Reid Simpson (partied a bunch at his place on the outskirts of town, including one rather memorable Halloween bash), so I got the chance to meet some NHL players through them two guys...

Oh, and Darwin McPherson (WHL & briefly, IHL tough guy from Flin Flon) once introduced me to Link Gaetz at a party in Flin Flon one time, and about two minutes later Link was guzzling the salt & pepper straight down like the friggin nutcase that he was and still is.

I'm canadian too, from surrey. The drugtown of canada.

I'm canadian too, from surrey. The drugtown of canada.

Yeah?

That's not too far from where I'm living now actually, as I moved out west about 9 (or so) years ago and am currently living in up the road from you in Kamloops, where top quality pot still runs rampant.

Yeah?

That's not too far from where I'm living now actually, as I moved out west about 9 (or so) years ago and am currently living in up the road from you in Kamloops, where top quality pot still runs rampant.

What can i say, we know how to grow weed and steel cars, lol.

Actually I grew up quite a bit north of Winnipeg, as I was born & raised in Flon Flon, so you can imagine my opportunities were even less so....I didn't realize you grew up in Flin Flon which for any Canadian kid who collected hockey cards was synonymous as the hometown of Bobby Clarke although I gotta admit as a die hard Montreal Candiens fan (loved The Flower and have a huge Rocket Richard picture above my computer as I type this) who was raised just outside Toronto, I never had any use for the diabetic toothless wonder. His breaking of Kharmalov's ankle in the '72 Summit Series, instigating then hiding behind his Broad Street Bully counterparts, not to mention his subsequent treatment of Eric Lindros and Roger Nielson as Flyers GM, well if there was one player I would have relished seeing impaled by a Sherwood it was Clarke. His fall from grace as Flyers GM and his 'relieving of his duties' by Daddy-in-law Ed Snider brought a smile to this guy's face.

Baumgartner is another story. The Bomber was loved here in Toronto and was a true blue collar player. I met him on his way to a Players Union meeting a few years back and he was personable and dressed up real well. I would never have known that the lanky clean cut and polite guy was a hockey enforcer.

As for meeting NHL players that's kind of part and parcel to growing up in this country having met several over the years from Bobby Orr on down not to mention one of my kids spending the day playing at Wayne Gretzky's house.

It kind of lends credence to the whole "Hey my friend Steve is from Canada, you must know him" comments Canadians are used to hearing from their south of the 49th encounters.

Ah well, back to swigging Maple syrup, 5% beer and listening to Shania Twain. I might even watch Wayne & Schuster or The King of Kensington on the Comedy Network.

Baumgartner is another story. The Bomber was loved here in Toronto and was a true blue collar player. I met him on his way to a Players Union meeting a few years back and he was personable and dressed up real well. I would never have known that the lanky clean cut and polite guy was a hockey enforcer.

Loved in Toronto, you say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HkXQaCUCJQ

Geez, I wonder why. :boxing:

Nah, whether it be on or off the ice, Baumer was always very popular when we were growing up (with his friends, coaches, and teachers alike) and had a type of personality that allowed him to get along with pretty much anyone. A fairly soft spoken & low key kind of guy off the ice like you kind of alluded to, and is also one of more intelligent hockey players I've ever known or known of...

Not your stereotypical hockey enforcer, that's for sure, but then again most of those enforcers upset the stereotypes of that profession.

Loved in Toronto, you say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HkXQaCUCJQ

Geez, I wonder why. :boxing:

Nah, whether it be on or off the ice, Baumer was always very popular when we were growing up (with his friends, coaches, and teachers alike) and had a type of personality that allowed him to get along with pretty much anyone. A fairly soft spoken & low key kind of guy off the ice like you kind of alluded to, and is also one of more intelligent hockey players I've ever known or known of...

Not your stereotypical hockey enforcer, that's for sure, but then again most of those enforcers upset the stereotypes of that profession.

dude, i dont like the way you underrated spinks. You say it wasnt a big deal that he beat larry holmes. Well, was it really a big deal when tunney beat an inactive, lesser heavyweight like jack dempsey. Or when ezzard beat an inactive joe louis. I guarantee archie moorer would have lost to the 85 holmes.

By the way, Surrey is like the fastest growing city in the country. In the last 15 years, we tripled our population. I guess the drug dealers like what they see here, lol.

dude, i dont like the way you underrated spinks. You say it wasnt a big deal that he beat larry holmes. Well, was it really a big deal when tunney beat an inactive, lesser heavyweight like jack dempsey. Or when ezzard beat an inactive joe louis. I guarantee archie moorer would have lost to the 85 holmes.

Hey, I know you're a big Spinks fan, Pimp, but I think you may have misinterpreted my "no big deal" comment regarding Spinks win over Holmes...

In and of itself, of course it was a big deal, as it is when anybody wins the true championship...especially the heavyweight title. But in the context of a former light heavyweight defeating a (or "the") top ranking heavyweight, that's been done on NUMEROUS occasions previous to when Spinks accomplished the feat (and without all the controversy, I might add), and I'm still not convinced that Spinks even defeated Holmes in their first meeting (close though, so...) to say nothing of the second fight, which I am convinced on who should've won the decision.

Also, at the time and still to this day, I thought Holmes was there for the taking by that time as evident in some of his previous fights, most notably the Carl Williams in the year previous, which again was a very close fight that could have very well gone either way in the scoring (I had Williams by a point)...At heavyweight, Carl Williams proved himself no less than equal with Spinks, if going by the results and performances against common opponents, and Spinks' few heavyweight fights really have no bearing on how I view him as a light heavyweight, nor should they, in my opinion because Spinks wasn't fighting that fight at 175 pounds or below. He was fighting a heavyweight at heavyweight while weighing in as a heavyweight, so...

And just so you know for future references, I don't use faulty "head-to-head" logic in deciding greatness, so whether Archie Moore could defeat that version of Holmes or not is meaningless to me. These guys didn't need to fight guys from other eras to prove their worth as fighters and only needed to fight who was around at the time, so forgive me if I think it's silly to say "Fighter A is greater than Fighter B because I think he could beat him" or something along those lines...What I try to do when I do rate fighters in a historical sense is try to get a feel for the era, what a particular fighter accomplished in that era, and how highly they were thought of in their respective eras by both their peers & press alike. I also have a saying that I've repeated a number of times over the course of my posting days on various sites, and that's simply "a great fighter for his time is a great fighter for all-time", which is something I believe in very strongly no matter if a past fighter could compete in today's game or vice versa...

I threw this out there a few weeks ago, but does a guy like Abraham Lincoln lose his distiction of being one of the greatest presidents just because he'd be out to lunch arguing modern politics with even a high school kid?

Or taking it to a another sports related topic, do the undefeated '72 Dolphins lose out on being considered a great team just because a modern NFL team out weighs them on the line by about an average of 50 pounds and likely make it very difficult for those Dolphins both on offense and defense?

Or, seeing as how you're Canadian, how about the Montreal Canadiens from the late 70's (60-8-12 or something like that at their best), when they were winning the cup four or five times in a row with their brand of wide-open fire wagon hockey? Taking it as it is, that style of hockey likely would have been shut down to a great extent by a more modern defensive team like the Devils, or anybody other team for that matter that employed the trap on a consistent basis (nearly all of them over the last ten years), but I'll be ****ed if I'm going to consider one of these modern NHL teams "greater" than a team who was as dominant as the Canadiens were during that very special time for that team.

Getting back to Spinks, I generally rate him in the top 6 or 7 at light heavyweight in the historcial sense, which, even though you may view him a couple of spots higher than that, does illustrate that I have a hell of a lot of respect for him and what he accomplished during his stay at 175...He wouldn't have made such a list if I thought otherwise.

Or taking it to a another sports related topic, do the undefeated '72 Dolphins lose out on being considered a great team just because a modern NFL team out weighs them on the line by about an average of 50 pounds and likely make it very difficult for those Dolphins both on offense and defense?

The '72 Dolphins is one of the most overrated sports teams ever. They were undefeated, but their dividion was the weakest in the league, and all their playoff games were close. Their like the Marciano of football teams.

Hey, I know you're a big Spinks fan, Pimp, but I think you may have misinterpreted my "no big deal" comment regarding Spinks win over Holmes...

In and of itself, of course it was a big deal, as it is when anybody wins the true championship...especially the heavyweight title. But in the context of a former light heavyweight defeating a (or "the") top ranking heavyweight, that's been done on NUMEROUS occasions previous to when Spinks accomplished the feat (and without all the controversy, I might add), and I'm still not convinced that Spinks even defeated Holmes in their first meeting (close though, so...) to say nothing of the second fight, which I am convinced on who should've won the decision.

Also, at the time and still to this day, I thought Holmes was there for the taking by that time as evident in some of his previous fights, most notably the Carl Williams in the year previous, which again was a very close fight that could have very well gone either way in the scoring (I had Williams by a point)...At heavyweight, Carl Williams proved himself no less than equal with Spinks, if going by the results and performances against common opponents, and Spinks' few heavyweight fights really have no bearing on how I view him as a light heavyweight, nor should they, in my opinion because Spinks wasn't fighting that fight at 175 pounds or below. He was fighting a heavyweight at heavyweight while weighing in as a heavyweight, so...

And just so you know for future references, I don't use faulty "head-to-head" logic in deciding greatness, so whether Archie Moore could defeat that version of Holmes or not is meaningless to me. These guys didn't need to fight guys from other eras to prove their worth as fighters and only needed to fight who was around at the time, so forgive me if I think it's silly to say "Fighter A is greater than Fighter B because I think he could beat him" or something along those lines...What I try to do when I do rate fighters in a historical sense is try to get a feel for the era, what a particular fighter accomplished in that era, and how highly they were thought of in their respective eras by both their peers & press alike. I also have a saying that I've repeated a number of times over the course of my posting days on various sites, and that's simply "a great fighter for his time is a great fighter for all-time", which is something I believe in very strongly no matter if a past fighter could compete in today's game or vice versa...

I threw this out there a few weeks ago, but does a guy like Abraham Lincoln lose his distiction of being one of the greatest presidents just because he'd be out to lunch arguing modern politics with even a high school kid?

Or taking it to a another sports related topic, do the undefeated '72 Dolphins lose out on being considered a great team just because a modern NFL team out weighs them on the line by about an average of 50 pounds and likely make it very difficult for those Dolphins both on offense and defense?

Or, seeing as how you're Canadian, how about the Montreal Canadiens from the late 70's (60-8-12 or something like that at their best), when they were winning the cup four or five times in a row with their brand of wide-open fire wagon hockey? Taking it as it is, that style of hockey likely would have been shut down to a great extent by a more modern defensive team like the Devils, or anybody other team for that matter that employed the trap on a consistent basis (nearly all of them over the last ten years), but I'll be ****ed if I'm going to consider one of these modern NHL teams "greater" than a team who was as dominant as the Canadiens were during that very special time for that team.

Getting back to Spinks, I generally rate him in the top 6 or 7 at light heavyweight in the historcial sense, which, even though you may view him a couple of spots higher than that, does illustrate that I have a hell of a lot of respect for him and what he accomplished during his stay at 175...He wouldn't have made such a list if I thought otherwise.

Ezzard, Tunney and Archie are the only guys that i will accept as being ranked higher than spinks. Conn, foster and loughran do not deserve to be ranked higher.

Some people say spinks didn't fight galindez or saad. Well correct me if i'm mistaken. Wasn't marvin johnson the guy that took galindez off the map. Didn't qawi brutally destroy saad and end his career as a legit threat. Wasn't eddie mustafa muhammad the guy that also holds wins over saad and marvin. Michael Spinks beat eddie, qawi and marvin, THE 3 best guys available for him to fight. He also holds a win over mustafa wassaja, the guy that ended bob foster's comeback and holds a win over future champ denis andries.

Spinks moved up to fight larry cuz there was no one left for him to fight at 175. I dont think he needed to waste his time fighting b-level guys like andries, prince charles williams, jeff harding and bobby cycz.

Butterfly, I had a fairly lengthy reply to you, but unfortunately it got lost somewhere in cyberspace when I tried submitting it, and I'm too lazy & burnt out to type it all out again.

Some people say spinks didn't fight galindez or saad. Well correct me if i'm mistaken. Wasn't marvin johnson the guy that took galindez off the map. Didn't qawi brutally destroy saad and end his career as a legit threat. Wasn't eddie mustafa muhammad the guy that also holds wins over saad and marvin. Michael Spinks beat eddie, qawi and marvin, THE 3 best guys available for him to fight. He also holds a win over mustafa wassaja, the guy that ended bob foster's comeback and holds a win over future champ denis andries.

I don't think a Galindez fight for Spinks would have been all that viable an option, as I don't think I (and others) would have seen it as anything more than a primed fighter adding another "name" on his ledger when he hit championship contender status...More than a couple years apart there when talking about each of their respective best at that weight.

The Spinks/Saad fight was a little different, but at the time that fight was seriously being talked about as a unification fight (Michael Stinks vs. Sad Muhammad...nickname each fighter gave to one another, to illustrate some of the bad blood between them), I think it would have again been one primed fighter facing off with another who had seen better days...Qawi had the honour of finishing off Saad's run with that title, but having watched that fight just about a month ago, I thought I saw a much depleted version of a Saad entering the ring on that night when comparisions are made to his earlier version of himself. Granted Qawi's relentless performance certainly had something to do with how Saad looked in that one, but I thought there was plenty enough difference in how Saad looked in that one to say it wasn't all Qawi's doing...Saad's timing, punch output & selection, accuracy, confidence, balance, etc., were all off in that fight from what I saw, and I thought quite noticable right from the get-go, although I have plenty of doubts if any version of Saad could have handled Qawi on that night.

If Saad had somehow gotten past Qawi, him and Spinks is the fight that was going to take place, but...In Eddie & Qawi, yes, I agree that Spinks beat the two best light heavyweights that were around during his time as champion, with Marvin Johnson another one of his better opponents at that weight (I haven't seen it since I saw it live on tv, but that hybrid left hook/uppercut is still one of the standout memories from that whole era). Being much more of a crowd pleaser than was Eddie Mustafa, Saad seems to have the higher standing of the two Muhammads nowadays. But if you had that same opinion 25 years ago when both were holding the titles, you're very likely in the minority with that opinion. Not a huge difference between the two from the boxing public, but by virtue of his win over Saad, as well as his generally percieved to be better overall skills at the time, Eddie was given slightly more credit in the boxing mags (and on tv) as the better light heavyweight of the two during that time.

I don't think a Galindez fight for Spinks would have been all that viable an option, as I don't think I (and others) would have seen it as anything more than a primed fighter adding another "name" on his ledger when he hit championship contender status...More than a couple years apart there when talking about each of their respective best at that weight.

The Spinks/Saad fight was a little different, but at the time that fight was seriously being talked about as a unification fight (Michael Stinks vs. Sad Muhammad...nickname each fighter gave to one another, to illustrate some of the bad blood between them), I think it would have again been one primed fighter facing off with another who had seen better days...Qawi had the honour of finishing off Saad's run with that title, but having watched that fight just about a month ago, I thought I saw a much depleted version of a Saad entering the ring on that night when comparisions are made to his earlier version of himself. Granted Qawi's relentless performance certainly had something to do with how Saad looked in that one, but I thought there was plenty enough difference in how Saad looked in that one to say it wasn't all Qawi's doing...Saad's timing, punch output & selection, accuracy, confidence, balance, etc., were all off in that fight from what I saw, and I thought quite noticable right from the get-go, although I have plenty of doubts if any version of Saad could have handled Qawi on that night.

If Saad had somehow gotten past Qawi, him and Spinks is the fight that was going to take place, but...In Eddie & Qawi, yes, I agree that Spinks beat the two best light heavyweights that were around during his time as champion, with Marvin Johnson another one of his better opponents at that weight (I haven't seen it since I saw it live on tv, but that hybrid left hook/uppercut is still one of the standout memories from that whole era). Being much more of a crowd pleaser than was Eddie Mustafa, Saad seems to have the higher standing of the two Muhammads nowadays. But if you had that same opinion 25 years ago when both were holding the titles, you're very likely in the minority with that opinion. Not a huge difference between the two from the boxing public, but by virtue of his win over Saad, as well as his generally percieved to be better overall skills at the time, Eddie was given slightly more credit in the boxing mags (and on tv) as the better light heavyweight of the two during that time.

Dude i have the tapes and i remember the enitre buildup between spinks and saad. It looked to me like saad wasnt too comfortable fighting spinks, he was the one that kinda held back. Maybe he remembers that sparring session they had from 1977.

Yo yogi, would u admit that mustafa hamsho was pretty good. I mean he has to be one of the best middleweights to never win the belt. This guy beat a 24 year old benitez, an undefeated bobby cycz, former linear champ alan minter, he beat a prime bobby watts. He also beat contenders like scypion, parker twice, rocky mosley jr, saenz and rudy robles.

Yo yogi, would u admit that mustafa hamsho was pretty good. I mean he has to be one of the best middleweights to never win the belt. This guy beat a 24 year old benitez, an undefeated bobby cycz, former linear champ alan minter, he beat a prime bobby watts. He also beat contenders like scypion, parker twice, rocky mosley jr, saenz and rudy robles.

Yeah, by my definition of "pretty good" I can admit Mustafa Hamsho was pretty good, and I'd say he was more than that. Obviously not the prettiest fighter one will ever see, but the way he got in there on you, roughed you up when neccessary with his strength & "tactics" (hey, if you ain't cheatin', you ain't trying), and dared you to fight his type of tough back alley brawl, well...he obviously made it work well for him and had the durability & tenacity to make it work well for him. Just a solid and tough ass mother ****er to fight for a lot of middleweights at that time, and during much of Hagler's reign, Hamsho solidified the number one contender spot by defeating other proven contenders and up-and-comers alike, as you alluded to (you pick up any random boxing mag from the early 80's, odds are great that Hamsho is listed right under Hagler's name in the monthly ratings)...

Actually, if I was being honest, guys like Hamsho are my type of fighter, as I've always kind of had a tendency to root for those guys who, maybe despite their natural athletic gifts, found ways and had the means to still consistently overcome those who maybe had more natural or visible talent.

Speaking of that type of fighter, and as a response to your other post...

Spinks vs. Qawi/Braxton

That's the fight I wanted to see in the division at that time and that's the fight we were "lucky"(quoted only because it didn't live up to expectations as really being close to a great action fight) enough to see. That's also the fight that, for me, Spinks put his stamp on the division as the very best around, which is something that wouldn't have been answered for me had Spinks fought Saad instead of Braxton fighting him(Saad) first. Honestly, having followed Braxton & Spinks through their climb leading up to that fight, I thought the fight was 50/50 pick 'em going in. I had no clue who I thought was going to win, only knowing that I wanted to find out the answer to that very question...

I know you know all about Spinks because you're obviously an admittedly big fan of his, but do you remember when Braxton was coming up through as a contender, and eventual successor to Saad's thrown?

I mean, come one...To steal a line from an old friend of mine from another site with hopes that he doesn't mind, that was some rip snortin' delicious **** right there, and the high level poise & ability he showed from someone of so few pro fights (and no amateur fights either...Braxton learned his craft the hard way) is quite rare in any age of boxing. Just a tough, hardnosed, and well schooled fighter, who'd just as soon bust you up with a jab from long distance as he would the hooks & uppercuts in close, and all the while doing so with what seemed to be a snarl of immense pleasure as he went about his business of busting up and walking through a very solid collection of light heavyweights in Rossman, Superman Scott, Saad, Martin, and Davis (both if you want)...

I was impressed as hell with Braxton right from the time I saw him absolutely destroy what was still a good light heavyweight in Mike Rossman, and it was in that fight when I saw something special in him and had already started envisioning the eventual showdown between him & Spinks for supremity of the early 80's light heavyweight era. That was a "bad man", I thought when I saw that Rossman fight live on tv, and that was only confirmed when he made the tough, tireless, and still highly thought of, James Scott appear not so "bad" afterall in his next big fight...It was no suprise to me at all to see Braxton end Saad's reign (although the dominant manner was a little suprising), and in fact I expected it, as I hope I alluded to...

Spinks vs. Braxton?

Yeah, that's the fight I wanted to see to find out the better light heavyweight of that era, and I got my answer...

Spinks was better.

It's not like benitez was shot either, when he fought hamsho. He only had two losses and he was using hamsho as a stepping stone to get a fight with hagler down the line. Its too bad hamsho ended benitez's run as a credible fighter cuz his career went downhill after this fight.

Would u admit that guys like rocky graziano, randy turpin and bobo olson are overrated. They are in the hall of fame, but i wouldnt use the word "great" to describe them.

Bennie Briscoe, charley burley and hamsho are proly the 3 best to never win the strap at 160.

Being much more of a crowd pleaser than was Eddie Mustafa, Saad seems to have the higher standing of the two Muhammads nowadays. But if you had that same opinion 25 years ago when both were holding the titles, you're very likely in the minority with that opinion. Not a huge difference between the two from the boxing public, but by virtue of his win over Saad, as well as his generally percieved to be better overall skills at the time, Eddie was given slightly more credit in the boxing mags (and on tv) as the better light heavyweight of the two during that time.Don't forget that these two were tentatively scheduled to unify the title in February 1981 as part of Harold Smith's MAPS "THIS IS IT" card at Madison Square Garden.

Other fights off the top of my head (it's been a long time so I'm going by memory) were Hearns-Benitez, Cooney-Norton, Pryor-Mamby, and Arguello-Kenty.

Eddie vs Saad held the most appeal for me on that card and I was leaning towards Eddie (ever so slightly) to repeat his prior win over Saad. Saad always came back, but never against a puncher like Eddie.

Eddie vs Qawi is another interesting potential match-up that unfortunately never occurred. I remember Qawi interrupting the Eddie-Spinks II cancellation press conference with alot of pushing, restraining and trash talk between Eddie and Dwight.

Apparently that led to nothing.

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It's not like benitez was shot either, when he fought hamsho. He only had two losses and he was using hamsho as a stepping stone to get a fight with hagler down the line. Its too bad hamsho ended benitez's run as a credible fighter cuz his career went downhill after this fight.

Would u admit that guys like rocky graziano, randy turpin and bobo olson are overrated. They are in the hall of fame, but i wouldnt use the word "great" to describe them.

Bennie Briscoe, charley burley and hamsho are proly the 3 best to never win the strap at 160.

Hey, there's probably only a few people in the whole world who got a better view of a "shot" Benitez than I did, as I was sitting ringside for his last(?) fight against that clubfighter in Winnipeg, and uh...One of the worst memories of my life as a boxing fan.

The Benitez that Hamsho fought & defeated was likely slipping at that point in time and was also fighting in a weight division that he probably had no business being in, but he was still a high enough quality of fighter to say that Hamsho deserves his share of credit for winning that one...especially in the manner in which he did so, as from memory, that was a one-sided win by Hamsho as he basically outmuscled & outmauled for much of the fight with Benitez' back against the ropes/corner.

Ok, in order to answer your question regarding Graziano, Turpin, and Olson being overrated...where are they rated?

I don't think I've ever found somebody who's rated them on a all-time top 10 list, or even a top 20...Nobody that I've encountered considers them a "great" middleweights on par with the other great middleweights in history, although all three of them accomplished things that are plenty worthy of great respect, and each are worthy of rememberance through the ages, whether that be in the IBHOF or not...

But if you're asking me where I'd rate them...I don't know for sure, but off the top, I think I'd personally have to take an all-time middleweight about 50 deep before I'd find room for those guys.

Burley's one of the very best to never win the title in this division, but I can't quite agree with the other two (less so on Briscoe, who I've always been a big fan of)...Holman Williams, Mike Gibbons, and Les Darcy are just a few that have a better historical standing to me than does Briscoe or Hamsho in this division.

Don't forget that these two were tentatively scheduled to unify the title in February 1981 as part of Harold Smith's MAPS "THIS IS IT" card at Madison Square Garden.

Other fights off the top of my head (it's been a long time so I'm going by memory) were Hearns-Benitez, Cooney-Norton, Pryor-Mamby, and Arguello-Kenty.

Eddie vs Saad held the most appeal for me on that card and I was leaning towards Eddie (ever so slightly) to repeat his prior win over Saad. Saad always came back, but never against a puncher like Eddie.

Eddie vs Qawi is another interesting potential match-up that unfortunately never occurred. I remember Qawi interrupting the Eddie-Spinks II cancellation press conference with alot of pushing, restraining and trash talk between Eddie and Dwight.

Apparently that led to nothing.

Yeah, I certainly do remember that card being talked about, as that potential card was HUGE news back then and got more than it's share of ink in the mags and such...

I think you pegged the card too from how I remember it, with Pryor/Mamby the only one that I can't recall to memory (that's not to say that it wasn't planned for that event...just don't have a memory of it, that's all). An Eddie/Saad fight would have been of the the two or three most appealling matchups on that card for me (****, who are we kidding...they're ALL very appealling), but knowing how big a fan I was of Arguello and knowing my then-overrated opinion of Kenty, that's probably the one that I was most looking forward to on that card.

Hey, did they show that press conferance on the television that night of the scheduled Spinks/Mustafa rematch?

I'm just asking because I don't recall too many details in regards to that scheduled rematch between Spinks & Eddie...I remember it was a Friday night, just because I/we were at the age when Friday nights actually meant something to us, and a fight's cancellation could go a long way in ruining that. But beyond that, I don't recall too much from the television, except tuning in, seeing the names up on the screen with the ring in the background, and immediately having the announcers describe the cancellation of it being a title fight due to Eddie being "overweight", as well as them then saying that a ten round non-title fight was being considered and was based entirely on Spinks' approval...A wait and a total cancellation by the announcers soon followed.

Hey, did they show that press conferance on the television that night of the scheduled Spinks/Mustafa rematch?

I'm just asking because I don't recall too many details in regards to that scheduled rematch between Spinks & Eddie....The press conference wasn't shown but I read about it.

Eddie has actually taken Spinks to court to get his rematch and title shot. Eddie had weighed 3 lbs over the limit the day of their first fight and having to shed those pounds had weakened him and cost him the fight according to Eddie.

For fight #2 Eddie had weighed 175 the day before the fight on his own scales. The night before the fight he went with a DC boxing Commisioner to weigh himself on the official scales and found they were locked up and undergoing calibrations. These were the same scales used for Joe Louis vs Buddy Baer in 1941. Eddie claims he ate nothing from the day before the fight until the next day's weigh in.

The next day Eddie officially weighed 177 1/2 while Spinks weighed 174 1/4 (high for Spinks who usually weighed around 172-173 for title fights and even as low as 170 for the David Sears defence). Eddie refused to lose any more weight and stated that the scales were inaccurate. The scales were later tested by Bert Sugar using bags of flour and were found to be be inaccurate by approximately 2 lbs.

The two fighters initially agreed to a 10 round non title fight with their purses being cut in half (now $500,000 to $75,000. Spinks spoke to trainer Eddie Futch who told him that Eddie would present "more of a problem" and "would have been stronger at 177 1/2" and advised Spinks not to fight and Spinks took that advice and Butch Lewis scheduled a press conference to be held at 7:00 PM the night of the fight to announce the cancellation.

Things got goofy when Eddie showed up at the press conference accompanied by a Brooklyn biker gang going by the name of the 'Assasins'. Eddie attempted to tell the media that Spinks has no heart and Butch told Eddie to leave. Eddie told Butch to "get outta my face" while Security attempted to intervene and Butch's father John who was pushed took a swing and decked an officer. Butch jumped up on a chair to see what happened then jumped back down while Eddie continued to yell at Butch. The Assasins tried to intervene while Eddie's mother tried to pull Eddie back. Dwight Qawi who was with Butch then jumped in pointed his finger at Eddie and warned him to get away. Hotel management then called the police who showed up and restored order by removing Eddie from the press conference.

"Muhammad does not deserve a ****in' fight. I'd be stooping to his level." -Michael Spinks at the press conference

Great post, my friend, and thanks for all that.

And you know, out of all that the only thing that clicked on in the ole' memory bank was your mention of Eddie's relationship with those gang members, because I do have a vague memory/reminder of reading the magazines afterwards with that being mentioned.

Like you said in an earlier post, Eddie vs. Qawi would have been interesting and best on best I'm really not sure who I would have favoured, although I think Eddie certainly showed the skills capable of the using the same gameplan Spinks pulled off against Qawi with sucess, and that's by using a patient & disciplined outside game behind a consistent jab and occasional hard right hand counter to keep him honest...But then again, Eddie had a common tendency to just give rounds away by not working nearly hard enough, and that may be the difference in the outcome of what I would view as a close distance fight.

Technically, greg haugen has done enough to make the hall of fame. I mean he beat camacho, pazienzia, an old mancini, jimmy paul and a decent fighters like jacobsen. Graziano and turpin are really on his level.

Hell, pernell whitaker has defeated many guys that have a shot at making the hall of fame. He already beat ATGs like chavez and nelson, ramirez is in the hall of fame. Mcgirt, vasquez, paez, roger mayweather, haugen all have a shot at getting in.