Who could beat a prime George Foreman? [Archive]

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KidDynamite86

01-20-2007, 07:52 PM

Dempsey 1919

01-20-2007, 08:19 PM

Although most of these would be hypothetical, which list of fighters could be able to beat a prime George Foreman? Keep it 1920- please :)

Muhammad Ali DID...but the rest of my list I have a hard time thinking of. Sonny Liston is all that comes to mind.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I only have Ali and Liston ranked above him as well.

Versastyle

01-20-2007, 08:22 PM

im pretty sure this could.http://www.digitaltension.com/gallery/astra/images/astra_a100_cal_9mm-2.jpg

Dempsey 1919

01-20-2007, 08:22 PM

im pretty sure this could.http://www.digitaltension.com/gallery/astra/images/astra_a100_cal_9mm-2.jpg

A Foreman uppercut would bend that in half as well!:D

Yaman

01-20-2007, 08:37 PM

dempsey1919

01-20-2007, 08:37 PM

I would Give Joe Louis, Gene Tunney, maby Max Baer on a good night

Pre 1920 Jim Jeffries and Jim Corbett maybe Jack Johnson

SABBATH

01-20-2007, 11:30 PM

Pre 1920 Jim Jeffries and Jim Corbett maybe Jack Johnson Foreman ain't losing to a 180 lb guy in a thong.

Kid Achilles

01-20-2007, 11:56 PM

Dempsey, Firpo, Louis, Lyle, Celeveland Williams, Tyson (uphill battle for him), Marciano (same), Max Baer, Johnson, Ali, Liston, Quarry, Langford, Bowe, Lewis, Holyfield (maybe) Vitali Klitschko, Wladimir Klitschko, David Tua, Samuel Peter, Ruddock, Shavers, the list goes on and on for guys I would give a chance at beating Foreman.

Who would I favor against him? Entirely different question and of course the list is a lot shorter. Liston, Dempsey, Ali, Holmes, and Louis would have the best chances IMO.

K-Nan

01-21-2007, 01:09 AM

ceboxer15

01-21-2007, 01:13 AM

M26

01-21-2007, 08:21 AM

Like the Kid pointed out a few posts back; there are a lot of fighters that COULD possibly defeat a prime George Foreman. How ever, if the question is who do I believe would defeat him, I come up with a very short list.

The fighters that COULD defeat a prime George Foreman:

JAMES JACK JEFFRIES:
From what I can gather from reading about this fighter, Jeffries was one tough sob. He is descriped as a powerful and skilled heavyweight of modern size. His chin is said to have been rock solid, his stamina awesome and his physical strenght enormous. This is all tell-tell signs of Jeffries being able to handle Foreman.

Still, I have never seen any footage of him, other than his loss at the hands of Jack Johnson. And eventhough is chin was solid, it was most likely never tested against someone who hit at Foremans level.
I am forced to give Foreman the benefit of the doubt in this one.

George Foreman by ko.

JACK JOHNSON:
A case could also be made for this defensive marvel. Johnson was a slick boxer, who in addition packed a decent punch. He might be able to stay out of Foremans reach to win by decision.

Still, for the most part Johnson looked great against mediocre opponents, and his chin was questionable at best. Plus, one of Johnsons tactics was to grab and hold his foes when they came close. I would like to see him try holding Foreman... A prime Foreman would run straight through Johnson and beat him by early kayo.

George Foreman by ko3

JACK DEMPSEY:
Dempsey would always have a chance, given his raw power, awesome speed and great explosiveness. His chance would be to get Foreman early, and take him out within five rounds. Lyle proved (against a past prime Foreman) that Foreman could be hurt, and Dempsey was in a different league than Lyle all together.

How ever, coming straight at Foreman is never a wise strategy, and his size and power advantages would make him the obvious favorite in this fight.

George Foreman by early stoppage.

GENE TUNNEY:
I used to consider Gene Tunney to be a fighter with the style and skill needed to overcome this mighty challenge. He surely had the defensive tools to make this unpleasant for Big George, he seemed to have a solid chin and a true fighters heart.

Though I still believe the post-Ali version of Foreman would lose this fight, I now think otherwise about the prime version. Tunney would simply be too small to handle the overwhelming force that was a prime Foreman. Today I predict a Foreman-win by early kayo.

George Foreman by ko3.

ROCKY MARCIANO:
As with Dempsey, Marciano always had that punchers chance. Marciano could take a punch and had the necessary stamina to hang on under fire. It is not impossible for him to last through the earlier rounds to come back later on. Granted, Foreman hit hard, but he would find it troublesome to deliver clean shots against the crouching Marciano who always tucked in his chin. Given Marcianos deadly bodyshots, his stamina, his heart and his cast-iron chin, I say it is at least possible for him to win this one. I know Marciano would think so.

On the other hand, Marcianos style is tailormade for a fighter like Foreman. With his vicious uppercuts, Marciano would have a better time swimming with sharks than he would running towards Foreman. We all saw what happened to Joe Frazier ("the black Marciano" as he was labeled), and chances are the same thing would happen in this fight. I love Marciano, but cannot help to think that Foreman would be the favorite.

George Foreman by early tko.

MIKE TYSON:
As with Dempsey, a prime Tyson had the tools to make this interesting. He was very difficult to hit cleanly, and when he was hit, his chin never failed. I think Foreman would have a hard time in this one, at least early on. Tyson would move side to side and hit Foreman with lightening combinations. I wouldn't be surprised to see Foreman on the canvas as a result. I believe he would get up though.

Eventhough Tyson probably would land more shots than Foreman early on, he would take a few in return. And Foremans punches stayed with you for a while. Further, considering Foremans chin, I see him lasting through Tysons early assault. Then it would turn into a slugging match, and nobody could outslug George Foreman.
I see a fading Tyson, who is more and more frustrated, with his fighting spirit failing on him, getting hammered to canvas for keeps inside 5-7 rounds.

George Foreman by ko.

RIDDICK BOWE:
In his short-spanned prime, Bowe was a great fighter. His abilities on the inside was nothing if not awesome. His size and strenght would also help his chances. Bowe could give Foreman a difficult fight, I am sure.

I still say Foreman comes out the winner though, simply because of him overwhelming power. Bowe could take a punch, but I see Foreman battering him into submission as he did most of his foes. Bowe would manage to last a few rounds though.

George Foreman by ko5.

Fighters like Floyd Patterson (too small and with a glass chin), Evander Holyfield (went 12 rounds against the 42-year-old version) and Lennox Lewis (tiiimmbeer) is not worth considering against a prime George Foreman in my opinion.

M26

01-21-2007, 08:22 AM

Fighters that WOULD defeat a prime George Foreman:

SONNY LISTON:
This fight could go either way, but Liston would be the better boxer with the longer reach. In addition he could punch on Foremans level, had a solid chin and paced himself better. This makes me favour Liston against Foreman.

I believe this fight would be a lot like the Ron Lyle-Foreman fight, only with Liston coming out on top. Foreman would come after Liston, probably hurting him in the process. Liston would hold his ground how ever, returning fire with his perfect left jab and thundering right hand.

Sonny Liston by tko6.

LARRY HOLMES:
In his prime, Holmes was the complete package. He was tremendously skilled, he moved very well, he was fast and strong, his chin made of iron and he had stamina. To top it off, his punch was solid as well. This combined with his heart, make me believe that the crude fighting machine that was George Foreman would lose this one.

It is of course possible that Foreman would overwhelm Holmes, battering him against the ropes to win by stoppage. This would in fact be of no surprise to me. I don’t think Holmes could survive the “rope-a-dope” as did Muhammad Ali.

How ever, Holmes in his absolute prime was a very slick fighter with a broader range of defensive abilities than Ali. I believe he could handle the early assault from Foreman because of his chin and defensive skills, and that he would use a tactic consisting of boxing-holding-running for the first four-five rounds. As Foreman began fading, Holmes would start dictating the fight. A tired Holmes defeats an exhausted Foreman by decision.

Larry Holmes by UD.

JOE LOUIS:
Some accuse Louis of being a weak-chinned, flatfooted and slow fighter who only defeated mediocre opponents. The same individuals will of course say that Louis would be brutally dispatched by Foreman inside of one or two rounds. When I first started studying boxing as a youngster, I also believed this to be the case. I saw Foreman being too big and too powerful for Louis to handle. After all, if Louis could be knocked down by fighters like Braddock, Foreman would surely kill him.

Today I beg to differ. Studying Louis, I find the perfect specimen of a fighter. A wonderful boxer with awesome power, he could deliver knockout punches who only travelled a few inches. His reflexes was superb, his stamina very good, and his heart was unquestionable. And even though he didn’t move very fast, his footwork was excellent. His chin is vastly underrated. Granted, Foremans power would be more than sufficient to put Louis’ lights out, but to do that, he would have to hit Louis with clean shots on a regular basis. I don’t see that happening.

I consider the prime Foreman to be too crude and raw against this perfect fighting machine. Louis would block, parry and counter Foremans telegraphed punches, and deliver his own ripping shots. When watching the first round of Foreman vs Ali, it is easy to see how frustrated and bewildered Foreman looks when Ali hits him with several overhand-rights. Well, Louis definitely had the handspeed to do the same, only with deadly force.

A well-prepared, careful Louis would survive the first half of the fight and batter the fading Foreman to win by late kayo.

Joe Louis by ko10.

Yaman

01-21-2007, 09:07 AM

Well done. Good Karma for that.
Although i disagree that no one could outslug a Prime Foreman.

Welter_Skelter

01-21-2007, 09:12 AM

both KLITSCHKOS.... laugh all you want... You cant me me wrong any more than I can prove me right you speculation carries no more weight than mine.. Your opinion worth no more than mine.. and your brain is prolly smaller ..therefore i will shatter all your stupid nostalgic beliefs that yesteryear was the best ..You idiots need to read a PSYCHOLOGY book which will explain why with nostalgia .. memories are always brighter than the actual even.. The top 10 in 1974 was no better than the top 10 today..
prove me worng.....!!! oh yeah you cant..

Yaman

01-21-2007, 09:20 AM

I dont know if you meant anything with that, but i think Vitali Klitchko could handle Big George. He was bigger, strong, even very strong for his size, granite chin for sure, a lot of heart and could punch too. He was more skilled too, he could actually have a game plan, and use his punces effectively rather than swinging wildly and gassing out late. Foreman's ''plan'' was to bully a guy, push him back on the shoulders, and pound away. This would be impossible with Vitali Klitchko. I could see him surviving early, and stopping Foreman late.

hemichromis

01-21-2007, 11:29 AM

Foreman is overrated. You can't possibly pick anyone to beat him, you'll get eaten alive around here.

On a serious note, i have some people in mind that could.

Boxers:
Ali
Holmes
Young
Lewis
Louis

Sluggers/Swarmers:
Liston
Ibeabuchi
Tua
Tyson
Vitali(i aint kidding)
Lyle

Some others have a shot aswell. Remember, Foreman is human, he could be outslugged or outboxed. And the topic is: who could beat a prime George Foreman.

so your basically mentioning anyone who could possibly beat foreman?
in that case don't forget shavers with his power he COULD beat anyone he just probably wouldn't!

of who you mentioned the only one that i would say have over 50% chance of beating him is Ali

holmes liston tyson lyle and possibly lewis are all tossups as far as i'm concerned

hemichromis

01-21-2007, 11:32 AM

Well done. Good Karma for that.
Although i disagree that no one could outslug a Prime Foreman.

let me guess: tyson could!

hemichromis

01-21-2007, 11:36 AM

Yaman

01-21-2007, 11:44 AM

let me guess: tyson could!

Like Lyle did maybe?

Yaman

01-21-2007, 11:46 AM

so your basically mentioning anyone who could possibly beat foreman?
in that case don't forget shavers with his power he COULD beat anyone he just probably wouldn't!

of who you mentioned the only one that i would say have over 50% chance of beating him is Ali

holmes liston tyson lyle and possibly lewis are all tossups as far as i'm concerned

Im judging the extremely overrated, flawed George Foreman as a human being. I dont buy this crap about him being near invincible except against Ali, and that nobody could ever outslug him and all of the crap that makes me sick everytime i read it. Those guys have a shot, imo.

K-DOGG

01-21-2007, 11:50 AM

Although most of these would be hypothetical, which list of fighters could be able to beat a prime George Foreman? Keep it 1920- please :)

Muhammad Ali DID...but the rest of my list I have a hard time thinking of. Sonny Liston is all that comes to mind.

From 1920 on....okay,

1. Gene Tunney
2. George Godfrey
3. Max Schmeling
4. Jack Sharkey...maybe
5. Max Baer
6. Joe Louis
7. Elmer Ray
8. Billy Conn
9. Ezzard Charles
10. "Jersey" Joe Walcott
11. Rocky Marciano...tought time of it; but could do it.
12. Eddie Machen
13. Zora Folley
14. Sonny Liston
15. Jerry Quarry
16. Jimmy Young
17. Larry Holmes
18. Michael Dokes....maybe
19. Michael Spinks...maybe
20. Trevor Berbick
21. Tim Witherspoon
22. Greg Page.....maybe
23. Tony Tubbs
24. Mike Tyson....tought fight; but he could do it.
25. Evander Holyfield
26. Riddick Bowe
27. Lennox Lewis
28. Vitali Klitschko
29. Wladimir Klitschko....maybe

There are probably a few others; but my point is this: a prime George Foreman, contrary to popular belief, was NOT invincible. He was a very cumbersome fighter with sloppy technique for the most part. He could be outboxed by anyone with the skill, the right style, and the right motivation.

Kid Achilles

01-21-2007, 11:50 AM

Just because Holyfield was taken the distance by a wiser Foreman who paced himself well, does not mean he would have no chance against a young Foreman who put all his eggs in one basket when the opponent was hurt and exerted tremendous energy in trying to finish him off. Holyfield had a remarkable chin, heart, a solid punch, and was a good counterpuncher. I can see him weathering an early Foreman storm (because of his chin and also ability to land a counterpunch while on the brink of destruction to hurt Foreman and plant seeds of doubt in his mind) fighting on more or less even terms in the middle rounds with a fading Foreman and then, dropping him in the later rounds to come away with a decision or even a late stoppage.

Young and old Foreman are two very different fighters and just because Holyfield struggled with an old Foreman in 1991 does not mean he would be in even more trouble against a young Foreman who did not know how to pace himself and did not have the ringsmarts of an older version.

Two different fighters, young and old Foreman, each with his own weaknesses and strengths.

Let's also remember that Foreman's power was nothing great on the inside. He needed distance to create his tremendous leverage, and Holyfield had the skills, resolve, and durability to close the gap and fight him in the trenches, smothering his punches and taking the edge off of them. As he did without another guy who could not often generate a lot of force inside (despite his smaller size befitting of an in-fighter), Mike Tyson.

K-DOGG

01-21-2007, 01:38 PM

Mike Tyson77

01-21-2007, 03:42 PM

Im judging the extremely overrated, flawed George Foreman as a human being. I dont buy this crap about him being near invincible except against Ali, and that nobody could ever outslug him and all of the crap that makes me sick everytime i read it. Those guys have a shot, imo.

I totally agree. I think Tyson and Marciano have a much better chance than most think. Lewis and Louis could also handle Foreman.

Mike Tyson77

01-21-2007, 03:44 PM

Two different fighters, young and old Foreman, each with his own weaknesses and strengths

I agree with that to. I actully think the old Foreman was better.

Brassangel

01-21-2007, 05:30 PM

The older Foreman was certainly the wiser of the two.

I think that this version of Big George surprised Holyfield a bit by his ability to dish it out later on in the fight. This was due to proper pacing, patience, and training. The young George would have chased Evander around all night, eventually succumbing to disorienting rolls and counters. Perhaps not a KO loss, but a convincing one because of the late rounds.

Marciano and Tyson would probably fare better than Frazier, as they typically utilized their game plan from the beginning of the first round on. Joe usually spent the first 3-4 rounds slipping and warming up, which gave Foreman plenty of time to clobber him. Foreman wasn't accustomed to guys attacking him in this fashion, and I think that it would make for an interesting slugfest.

Holmes was a crafty boxer, but he definitely didn't handle himself against the ropes the same way Ali did. If his plan would be to let George in, I think he loses. If he kept his distance, piled up the points, ran, and threw some rights, he gets George by a late stoppage or decision.

Liston would make for perhaps the most amazing ESPN Classic fight with Foreman. While Liston did have greater reach, some of that is taken away by his height disadvantage. If I'm not mistaken, it was only 2-3" longer anyway. Sonny would also be punching upwards, while George would be punching downwards, thus creating a slight power advantage for George. Liston did have better stamina, though both fighters lacked a pinch of heart, and Liston was a better technical fighter. I don't think that Sonny ever took these kinds of punches before, while Foreman fought in an era full of titanic punchers. In the end, I think it definitely ends up a KO due to all of the power floating around, and Sonny Liston wins 2 out of 3.

Lennox Lewis was another technically sound fighter with great skill. Even though his chin was questionable, he had a pretty powerful punch himself and has been known to keep the power guys at bay. With height, reach, weight, and skill all in his favor, he makes a tough opponent for most fighters in history, including George Foreman.

Joe Louis seems difficult to guage, as his slow movement seems awkward compared to more recent fighters. I think it was slightly deceiving, however, and probably by choice that he moved slow enough to bring the fight to him. His hands could fire very quickly when they needed to, and he almost always stood back up after being knocked down. I expect one of two conclusions: Foreman KO's him in 1 or 2 as his power is too much to stand back up from; or Joe surprises George when he's coming in by landing devastating combos that wear down the bigger man's confidence.

This is a really good topic. No fighter was invincible, except perhaps Curley when "Pop Goes the Weasle" started playing on a fiddle.

dempsey1919

01-21-2007, 07:20 PM

I found these on a boxing wed site that did a All time HW tournament

Sonny Liston Ko 4 George Foreman

Liston-Foreman
Jabs 24
12

Punnches Landed 56 40
Punching Acc. 46.2 37.2
Knockdowns Scored 1
0

Cuts Suffered 0
0

Official Decision: Foreman is counted out in 4th by Ref Davey Pearl.

Cox's Comments: R 1)Sonny tries to work his way inside behind his jab and long 84" reach. Sonny lands a hard left hook. George a powerful right. Both men are shaken. They exchange strong jabs. George lands a hammering hook that staggers Sonny before the bell. R 2) Liston lands a hard jab to the nose. George finds the target with a hard right to the head. Sonny is hurt! George traps Sonny on the ropes, his killer instinct has kicked in. The exchange powering hooks to the body. George lands a hard L-R to the head. Sonny blocks a big hook that had goodnight written all over it. George buckles Sonny with a hard right uppercut before the bell. Sonny survives a shellacking in the second round. R 3) George catches Sonny with a smashing uppercut and Sonny is in trouble again. A devastating right drives Sonny to the ropes. Foreman pounds both hands to the body as Sonny covers up. George lands a solid uppercut! Sonny is in serious trouble. George lands a hard right and a hard left to the head. Ref Davey pearl is taking a close look, he might stop the fight. Sonny ducks a huge left hook and forces a clinch. The bell ends further action. R 4) Liston appears to have recovered between rounds. Sonny gets his jab working again early. George appears to be tiring. George is too eager and walks in with his hands down. Lisotn lands a punishing jab. Both men launch left hooks. George misses wildly. A counter-hook by Sonny catches George flush on the chin. A crushing hook! George is wobbled. Liston now turns tiger connecting with a right to the temple and a left hook to the cheek. George is hurt! Sonny lands a hard left jab. Foreman is reeling backwards. Sonny lands a thunderous L-R to the body. Sonny lands another hard left jab that drives George to the ropes. A short clean hook by Sonny catches George flush. Foreman drops like he’s been shot. George tries to get up but cannot beat Davey Pearls count. A magnificent slugfest that had the crowd on its feet!!

Joe Louis Ko 6 George Foreman

Louis-Foreman
Jabs 38 8
Punches Landed 164 79
Punching Acc. 47.5.0 39.0
Knockdowns Scored 2
1

Cuts Suffered 0
0

Official Decision: Ref Art Mercante counts out Foreman in the sixth round.

Cox's Comments: This was thought to be a very dangerous fight for JL and the pre-fight analysts were right. The difference in the match proved to be Louis hand speed and the fact that Foreman threw wide looping punches, while Louis threw dynamite shots that often travelled only a few inches. Louis made George pay for his mistakes but not without a price. Both men landed serious punches in a viscious war. Louis controlled the temo early with a powerful jab. He was cautious the first 2 rounds, ducking, slipping, blocking, and parrying many of George's wild shots and countering with crushing blows of his own. The fireworks began in round 3 when George caught Louis with a hard right to the head that dropped him for a flash knockdown. A fight erupted in the center of the ring that brought the crowd to its feet. Both men were wobbled by powerful punches. This was George round but it was also the beginning of the end. Louis punished George with jabs early in round 4 then exploded with a destructive straight right with speed (that Ali proved George could be nailed with), a flurry of devasting punches sent George to the canvas. He got up but lost his confidence. In the fifth Louis began to back George up with the jab and landing some fast right hands. Another viscious exchange broke out in ring center that had both men wobbling back to their corner at the bell. In the fateful 6th Louis caught a slowing Foreman with a short right hand to the chin as he was trying to clinch. The punch travelled only a few inches but landed with the force of a rocket. Foreman crashed in a heap to the canvas. He was counted out.

KidDynamite86

01-21-2007, 10:04 PM

Versastyle

01-21-2007, 10:09 PM

chris byrd:tapedshut

Emon723

01-22-2007, 02:21 AM

simple, Joe Louis and Larry Holmes.

Two Fisted Piston

01-22-2007, 01:47 PM

Max Baer(sooooooo underated), Liston, Louis, V. Klitschko, Tua, Holmes, Tyson

K-DOGG

01-22-2007, 03:45 PM

Thanks for the replies guys. I've learned a lot of things in this thread so far :D

But I have a question for the guys who picked the shorter fighters like Joe Louis, Mike Tyson, Jack Dempsey, etc. on beating Foreman.

All Foreman had to do is to push them to make space if they ever got inside. And if they did get inside, I wouldn't think they would land more than 1-2 punches.

But I do agree with fighters closer to Foreman's reach and height because they could outpoint him and outtire him like Ali did.

Louis would counter George on the way in.....watch Louis-M. Baer for an idea. Baer was similar to George in style and power. Louis's straighter, more compact punches dissected him as had never been done before.....and he'd just lost his world title like two or three months before, so this was a hungry, almost in his prime Baer.

For Tyson, it would be difficult, and truthfully, I wouldn't bet on in; but his head movement in his prime was superb and unlike Frazier, Mike didn't want to be right up in your chest; he wanted to nail you from mid-range, so George's uppercuts wouldn't be nearly as accurate as they were against Joe....and, since George liked blasting your from any range he could get, usualy long to mid, like Tyson, it would be a matter of handspeed, defense, and timing....all of which favour Mike.....and Mike had a good chin, better than Foreman's in my opinion. So, Mike could win, though it would be a difficult fight for him.

KidDynamite86

01-22-2007, 04:17 PM

Ok, thanks. I gotta start checking out some Louis fights :D

K-DOGG

01-22-2007, 04:40 PM

Ok, thanks. I gotta start checking out some Louis fights :D

Louis-Baer would be Joe's equivalent to Ali-Williams and maybe Tyson-Spinks, except that Baer was near the top of his game where Williams and Spinks were past theirs.

realheavyhands

01-22-2007, 07:10 PM

Although most of these would be hypothetical, which list of fighters could be able to beat a prime George Foreman? Keep it 1920- please :)

Muhammad Ali DID...but the rest of my list I have a hard time thinking of. Sonny Liston is all that comes to mind.

we never saw a prime foreman...
I wouldnt count out this mutha ****a. even tho he was scared

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phallus

01-22-2007, 08:10 PM

Max Baer(sooooooo underated), Liston, Louis, V. Klitschko, Tua, Holmes, Tyson

i think the young foreman is tailor made for max baer. baer was NEVER knocked out in a 84 fights, and only knocked down by joe louis and lou nova and both times he got up right away. baer was also a heavy fisted puncher.
i think his chin is better than foreman's, these two would slug it out, and baer can take more. in the late rounds he'd beat foreman down.

liston's technique is MUCH better than foreman's, he had a great jab, and was a big puncher. also foreman idolized liston, foreman would be afraid of liston, not the other way around.

joe louis. i think joe louis is the most complete heavyweight THAT EVER LIVED. even though he's the smaller man, here, his hands are much faster than foreman's and joe throws clean combinations, and is much busier. i think, like KDOGG and M26 said, this fight would look like louis - baer, except i don't see foreman hanging around that long. by the middle rounds, louis would beat foreman down, after tasting the canvas himself. foreman isn't a skilled boxer / mover like billy conn, he'd be standing in front of louis all night - the one place u don't wanna be

SABBATH

01-22-2007, 08:32 PM

i think the young foreman is tailor made for max baer. baer was NEVER knocked out in a 84 fights, and only knocked down by joe louis and lou nova and both times he got up right away. baer was also a heavy fisted puncher.
Baer was floored 3 times and 10 counted by Louis, or more accurately he quit and took the count on one knee on the floor.

Against Nova, Baer was floored twice, the second KD as he was face planted to the canvas and the fight was stopped while Baer was still down.

Both were decisive KO losses.

Baer was a womanizing playboy who by his own admission didn't like fighting, was a slacker in training, a clown in and out of the ring and admittedly quit and took the count in his fight against Joe Louis to avoid punishment. This is the guy that was having sex in his dressing room before defending his title against Braddock. What kind of mindset is this to carry into a slugfest with George Foreman?

Baer NEVER displayed the type of heart and resolve to dig deep and come back from a tough drag-em-out brawl a Foreman match-up could materialize into.

Prior to the Louis fight, Baer did not want to even enter the ring. Baer made a decision in his dressing room that Louis was going to slaughter him and he couldn't go through with the fight. Baer had to be persuaded by a disgusted Jack Dempsey to leave the dressing room and "get in the ring and fight like a champion."

"I could have got up, but it wouldn't have done me any good.....Quit? Sure I quit. But I was just being smart." - Max Baer after being KO'd by Joe Louis

After defeating Tony Galento, Baer was elevated to #1 contender status and was the logical opponent for Louis in a title fight. Baer wasn't too eager to face Louis again and got out of it by asking for too big a purse and pricing himself out of the fight.

phallus

01-22-2007, 08:56 PM

Baer was 10 counted by Louis, or more accurately he quit and took the count sitting on the floor.

Against Nova, Baer was face planted to the canvas and the fight was stopped while Baer was still down.

Both were decisive KO losses.

Baer was a womanizing playboy who by his own admission didn't like fighting, was a slacker in training, a clown in and out of the ring and admittedly quit and took the count in his fight against Joe Louis to avoid punishment. This is the guy that was having sex in his dressing room before defending his title against Braddock. What kind of mindset is this to carry into a slugfest with George Foreman?

Baer NEVER displayed the type of heart and resolve to dig deep and come back from a tough drag-em-out brawl a Foreman match-up could materialize into.

Prior to the Louis fight, Baer did not want to even enter the ring. Baer made a decision in his dressing room that Louis was going to slaughter him and he couldn't go through with the fight. Baer had to be persuaded by a disgusted Jack Dempsey to leave the dressing room and "get in the ring and fight like a champion."

"I could have got up, but it wouldn't have done me any good.....Quit? Sure I quit. But I was just being smart." - Max Baer after being KO'd by Joe Louis

After defeating Tony Galento, Baer was elevated to #1 contender status and was the logical opponent for Louis in a title fight. Baer wasn't too eager to face Louis again and got out of it by asking for too big a purse and pricing himself out of the fight.

i knew baer was banging hollywood sluts, but i never knew he did it right before a fight...but u can't deny that baer had a lot of natural talent... all i'm saying is that if baer could show up motivated to fight foreman and actually train for the fight instead of banging half of hollywood, i think he could beat him

brownpimp88

01-22-2007, 08:56 PM

Listen to what sabbat says, this guy actually speaks with logic.

phallus

01-22-2007, 08:59 PM

Listen to what sabbat says, this guy actually speaks with logic.

who the **** asked u for your opinion? u think any fighter that lived before the 1960's is a bum, that sounds like logic to me

brownpimp88

01-22-2007, 09:03 PM

who the **** asked u for your opinion? u think any fighter that lived before the 1960's is a bum, that sounds like logic to me

since when the **** did i care what you say, you think lennox is barely top 20. That just shows how much of a dumbass you really are.

Kid Achilles

01-22-2007, 09:09 PM

Foreman would not be hitting Baer with the kind of lightning fast straight as an arrow shots that made him feel helpless and want to quit as it happened vs. Louis. Baer vs. Foreman would be a straight up pier 6 brawl, even more so than the Lyle fight where Lyle tried to box a bit at times.

Baer had heart, he was able to stick it out with a hard hitting, well conditioned and determined counterpuncher in Schmeling and come on strong in the later rounds to stop the german.

Baer was one of the most inconsistent champions of all time. Sometimes he'd show up with a mentality to win, and other times he just wasn't in it for the opening bell. When we make these fantasy fights we're assuming each fighter is at his best. He don't use the Tyson who quit vs. McBride, and we don't use the Baer who decided he hadn't a chance from the begining vs. Louis.

Also something to think about. Foreman would be so hittable and wide open himself that Baer's confidence would take a boost every time he landed on and stunned Big George. It's not hard to keep your faith in yourself when you can feel your punches hurting the opponent. The situation Baer was in, where he was barely connecting with anything significant and taking one of the worst beatings imaginable in return would try even the sternest heart. Foreman never showed me he could come back from the kind of beating Baer took vs. Louis.

I mean, who's to say Foreman doesn't fold as well when hit that hard, that fast, and with no chance at really getting much of his own punches in? Foreman was never put in that kind of position, he never faced a guy like Louis. I don't consider the punishment he received from Lyle even close to what Baer got from Louis. At least Foreman as consistently staggering Lyle in return, he knew he could hit and hurt him. That strengthens anyones resolve. When you're just taking a beating, I don't care how courageous you are, you'll reach a quitting point where it's no longer worth it to get beat more and risk your life.

Next to Willard quitting in his corner vs. Dempsey, Baer letting himself get counted out in Yankee Stadium might be the most justifiable and understandable example of a top fighter quitting.

I think Baer vs. Foreman would be a very competitive, pick 'em fight.

phallus

01-22-2007, 09:12 PM

brownpimp88

01-22-2007, 09:16 PM

Brockton Lip

01-22-2007, 09:45 PM

You guys ever thought about the size difference and the fact that foreman's punches will hurt more than max's. The reach advantage should also be something to think about. One of these guys is a top 5 heavyweight of all times, the other will just go down as a forgettable champ that reigned inbetween dempsey and louis.

Size is not everything, other factors are involved. But to humor you; Baer was a large opponent to most and very strong.
Baer is nowhere near a forgettable champ, those words together are disrespectful to the boxing great.

SABBATH

01-22-2007, 09:57 PM

He don't use the Tyson who quit vs. McBride, and we don't use the Baer who decided he hadn't a chance from the begining vs. Louis. What makes you think that Baer would be confident after getting hit by a big powerful heavy puncher like Foreman when he mentally folded before he was even ****in' hit against Louis?

Kid, you can't keep filling in the blanks with romatic idalistic versions of older fighters just because you like that particular era.

A year after losing to Louis, Baer was beaten by Art Oliver who was making his pro debut, yet you're using the Lyle fight as a reference point to how Baer might succeed against Foreman? You do recall Foreman getting up from a face-first KD (not too many heavyweights are gonna get up from that type of KD) to 10 count Lyle? When did Baer EVER ONCE in his 84 fight career display that type of heart or ability to come back from the brink of defeat? I'll answer that for you. NEVER.

Baer's best names on his win resume are Carnera, Schmeling and Galento.

The rest of Baer's bigger name opponents like Jim Braddock, Ernie Schaff, Tommy Loughran, Johnny Risko, Paolino Uzcudun, King Levinsky, all went the distance with Baer and with the exception of Levinsky all of them defeated "The Clown Prince". Only Schaff weighed over 200 lbs.

Which Baer are we talking about standing up to and KO'ing Foreman? The one that was never seen or the one that consistantly lost to fighters not even close to Foreman?

Kid Achilles

01-22-2007, 10:03 PM

Explain to me how you know for a fact that Foreman hit harder than Baer. Maybe with the left hand, sure, but Baer's right was as heavy and hard as anyone's. As for the reach, Foreman's reach was 82" to Baer's 81". The difference was negligable.

As for size, I've seen Baer's chest, forearm and other measurements as being listed as bigger than Foreman's were when Baer had won the title at 210 lbs and Foreman at 217. Foreman had the bigger legs but smaller less broad upper body, despite weighing more and having a height advantage. Baer's shoulders look extremely wide for his height in the films and pictures, no doubt a key factor in his almost superhuman leverage.

Dempsey 1919

01-22-2007, 11:26 PM

Dempsey 1919

01-22-2007, 11:27 PM

What makes you think that Baer would be confident after getting hit by a big powerful heavy puncher like Foreman when he mentally folded before he was even ****in' hit against Louis?

Kid, you can't keep filling in the blanks with romatic idalistic versions of older fighters just because you like that particular era.

A year after losing to Louis, Baer was beaten by Art Oliver who was making his pro debut, yet you're using the Lyle fight as a reference point to how Baer might succeed against Foreman? You do recall Foreman getting up from a face-first KD (not too many heavyweights are gonna get up from that type of KD) to 10 count Lyle? When did Baer EVER ONCE in his 84 fight career display that type of heart or ability to come back from the brink of defeat? I'll answer that for you. NEVER.

Baer's best names on his win resume are Carnera, Schmeling and Galento.

The rest of Baer's bigger name opponents like Jim Braddock, Ernie Schaff, Tommy Loughran, Johnny Risko, Paolino Uzcudun, King Levinsky, all went the distance with Baer and with the exception of Levinsky all of them defeated "The Clown Prince". Only Schaff weighed over 200 lbs.

Which Baer are we talking about standing up to and KO'ing Foreman? The one that was never seen or the one that consistantly lost to fighters not even close to Foreman?

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 02:20 AM

Baer lost to one of the worst heavyweight champs ever, he usually loses to most big name opponents he faces, yet we are supposed to believe he will kick george's ass, haha. I thought we are supposed to talk about each fighter at his best, well the best george was 1970-1974, not the one that lost to young and fought lyle.

Sir_Jose

01-23-2007, 02:50 AM

Yaman

01-23-2007, 02:56 AM

SABBATH

01-23-2007, 08:21 AM

You guys just dont get what Kid Achilles is trying to explain. You're taking out examples and incidents that happened in real life, where's he's just trying to point out how Baer's style could beat Foreman. Dont forget that its a FANTASY fight, so its hilarious that Sabbath is trying to imply that Baer would quit like he did against Louis, but doesn't even mention how Baer would be bad for Foreman. Again, IF they fought, and IF they both came in prepared.

I think you're hilarious. Maybe you should read your own ****in' threads before posting. Here's what you previously wrote in response to Kid Achilles regarding his opinion of a Foreman-Baer fight. Now you can't throw on your kneepads and get down on the floor quick enough for the Kid. No wonder you're the joke of boxingscene. Go away.

You must be joking..i mean you are comparing Max Baer, a ****ing clown of a heavyweight, to one of the best Hws ever. I'll just wait untill you admit you were joking, untill then i'll play along.

Smaller gloves cause a lot more damage, everyone knows that. As far as the Ron Lyle comment, that may be right, but Max is no Lyle. He's ****. He was ko'd by a 200 pound nobody. A nobody compared to Morrison, Holyfield, Lyle etc who were bigger and hit harder. You can't compare his chin to Foreman. Ali ko'd Foreman because he was tired and had nothing left. I think you even said that in a thread once.

Max Baer was never floored before louis because that was the first good fighter he fought. He fought nobody's compared to Foreman. And the first time someone fights back, he's ko'd in 1. When someone fough Foreman back, Foreman was down and came back to win.

Tyson had a ****ty chin because of Mcbride? he quit because Mcbride was a smelly **** who was leaning with 270 pounds on him. Not because he hit Tyson hard. Like Mike said ''He didn't hit me hard, he hit me like he's French''. You cant compare this.
Foreman ko's Baer in 1.

Yaman

01-23-2007, 09:00 AM

I think you're hilarious. Maybe you should read your own ****in' threads before posting. Here's what you previously wrote in response to Kid Achilles regarding his opinion of a Foreman-Baer fight. Now you can't throw on your kneepads and get down on the floor quick enough for the Kid. No wonder you're the joke of boxingscene. Go away.

Maybe i should also search for your old smasher posts, showing that a 40+ year old man with 3 kids calling people ''***got'' ''******'' and every word a trailerpark boy can think of. Your children must be very proud of you.

This past year i felt diffirent about most of the things i've discussed before. Everyone can change his opinion. You're the only one putting all the time and effort in searching trough all my old posts, googling pics of retarded people, not having a job instead. I think you're the joke of Boxingscene. Dont be in denial Ricky.

Anyway, i am right. You can't look and judge on incidents that have happened, instead of analizing the fighters and their fights. One time a guy quit, and another time the same guy got off the canvas to win. And i dont think Baer can beat Foreman, never said that. Maybe SOMEONE can check trough every single post i made and find some posts that prove this:)

SABBATH

01-23-2007, 09:24 AM

Dust your knees off, remove your head from your ass, take my advice and go away.

Yaman

01-23-2007, 09:45 AM

Sigh..You wont ever learn huh. Maybe if you change ya name back to smasher, you'll get banned again. but I wont ever leave, sir. Now go and find a job to support your family instead of looking at my profile, and i mean that.

Anyway, i still think Baer is a joke as far as his career goes, neither do i like his fighting style. But its still not so bad for the unbelievably overrated Foreman. I'd pick Big George for a mid round TKO, but he would be as sloppy as always trying to get rid of Baer.

SABBATH

01-23-2007, 10:09 AM

Nice of you to note on this thread how many children I have. Since it's not in my profile, I'll assume I must have casually posted that somewhere on another thread and you made a point of memorizing it. In any event I find it disturbing that you would make a point of remembering that and saw fit to bring it into this thread.

Then again, if children are your thing that explains it.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 11:01 AM

Baer was floored 3 times and 10 counted by Louis, or more accurately he quit and took the count on one knee on the floor.

Against Nova, Baer was floored twice, the second KD as he was face planted to the canvas and the fight was stopped while Baer was still down.

Both were decisive KO losses.

Baer was a womanizing playboy who by his own admission didn't like fighting, was a slacker in training, a clown in and out of the ring and admittedly quit and took the count in his fight against Joe Louis to avoid punishment. This is the guy that was having sex in his dressing room before defending his title against Braddock. What kind of mindset is this to carry into a slugfest with George Foreman?

Baer NEVER displayed the type of heart and resolve to dig deep and come back from a tough drag-em-out brawl a Foreman match-up could materialize into.

Prior to the Louis fight, Baer did not want to even enter the ring. Baer made a decision in his dressing room that Louis was going to slaughter him and he couldn't go through with the fight. Baer had to be persuaded by a disgusted Jack Dempsey to leave the dressing room and "get in the ring and fight like a champion."

"I could have got up, but it wouldn't have done me any good.....Quit? Sure I quit. But I was just being smart." - Max Baer after being KO'd by Joe Louis

After defeating Tony Galento, Baer was elevated to #1 contender status and was the logical opponent for Louis in a title fight. Baer wasn't too eager to face Louis again and got out of it by asking for too big a purse and pricing himself out of the fight.

Well, you learn something new everyday. I had no idea Baer was that terrified of facing Louis and that all of that drama transpired before the fight. It doesn't change my opinion of whether or not Louis would beat Foreman nor my opinion that Baer could beat Big George, either; but it is highly enlightening. Thank you for the background info, bro.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 11:05 AM

SABBATH

01-23-2007, 01:40 PM

Well, you learn something new everyday. I had no idea Baer was that terrified of facing Louis and that all of that drama transpired before the fight. It doesn't change my opinion of whether or not Louis would beat Foreman nor my opinion that Baer could beat Big George, either; but it is highly enlightening. Thank you for the background info, bro.Yeah that's the real deal Dogg.

Baer was pretty much forced into the ring that night by Dempsey and was terrified of facing Louis. As Baer would later say:

"I define fear as standing across the ring from Joe Louis and knowing he wants to go home early."

If you watch a tape of the fight you will see Baer looks quite tentative (I'll stop short of saying scared) although he does connect and shake Louis up at one point. Unfortunately for Baer it was at the end of the round and Baer returned to his tentative ways the next round. So much for Baer getting braver after hurting his opponent.

Louis at the time was 21 years of age and had 24-0 record. Baer at the time was a veteran of 48 fights, had never been floored or stopped and was an ex-champion. While Louis was becoming known as a 'dark destroyer' his reputation as a fighter was nowhere near it would become. Why Baer was that afraid of Louis is puzzling, but in my mind offers up some insight into Baer's mindset and courage and the self doubt that Baer could bring into the ring against the imposing Foreman or Sonny Liston for that matter.

Baer also took a bit of a ****-kicking in the press at the time for staying down when he clearly could have gotten up. Baer freely admitted he could have gotten up but told the press something to the effect that if the fans wanted to see him killed they would have to pay more than $50 for a ringside seat.

I hear alot of reference to Foreman's Ron Lyle fight in these Foreman-Baer fantasy threads. Lyle in his fights with Shavers and Foreman showed greater heart and courage than Baer ever did in his career. Climbing off the deck to to KO Shavers and floor Foreman, two of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time speaks volumes of Lyle's determination.

I never saw that in Baer.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 01:49 PM

Kid would favour dempsey to beat foreman, nuff said, lol.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 01:52 PM

Yeah that's the real deal Dogg.

Baer was pretty much forced into the ring that night by Dempsey and was terrified of facing Louis. As Baer would later say:

"I define fear as standing across the ring from Joe Louis and knowing he wants to go home early."

If you watch a tape of the fight you will see Baer looks quite tentative (I'll stop short of saying scared) although he does connect and shake Louis up at one point. Unfortunately for Baer it was at the end of the round and Baer returned to his tentative ways the next round. So much for Baer getting braver after hurting his opponent.

Louis at the time was 21 years of age and had 24-0 record. Baer at the time was a veteran of 48 fights, had never been floored or stopped and was an ex-champion. While Louis was becoming known as a 'dark destroyer' his reputation as a fighter was nowhere near it would become. Why Baer was that afraid of Louis is puzzling, but in my mind offers up some insight into Baer's mindset and courage and the self doubt that Baer could bring into the ring against the imposing Foreman or Sonny Liston for that matter.

Baer also took a bit of a ****-kicking in the press at the time for staying down when he clearly could have gotten up. Baer freely admitted he could have gotten up but told the press something to the effect that if the fans wanted to see him killed they would have to pay more than $50 for a ringside seat.

I hear alot of reference to Foreman's Ron Lyle fight in these Foreman-Baer fantasy threads. Lyle in his fights with Shavers and Foreman showed greater heart and courage than Baer ever did in his career. Climbing off the deck to to KO Shavers and floor Foreman, two of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time speaks volumes of Lyle's determination.

I never saw that in Baer.

That's incredibly insightful, SABBATH. I may have to re-think my analysis of Baer-Foreman. The sport, being 90% mental, would definitely favour the man who has the strongest will and mental faculties. If you can't control your fear....that's a major black mark.

joelouisbarrow

01-23-2007, 02:02 PM

Kid would favour dempsey to beat foreman, nuff said, lol.

and you would favour lennox lewis to beat joe louis..nuff said

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 02:06 PM

and you would favour lennox lewis to beat joe louis..nuff said

Yes i would, lennox would throw straight punches to his face, use his reach and blast him. When did joe louis fight a guy with the skill of lennox, never.

joelouisbarrow

01-23-2007, 02:12 PM

Yes i would, lennox would throw straight punches to his face, use his reach and blast him. When did joe louis fight a guy with the skill of lennox, never.

im not even getting into this...i`ll put my daughter on..shes about the same age as you :)

hemichromis

01-23-2007, 02:16 PM

im not even getting into this...i`ll put my daughter on..shes about the same age as you :)

naa i ahev to agree with brown pimp here lewis could give louis alot of trouble with his stregnth power and skills. At his best lewis stood a fare chance against any heavyweight in hostory, at his worst journeyman beat him!

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 02:32 PM

naa i ahev to agree with brown pimp here lewis could give louis alot of trouble with his stregnth power and skills. At his best lewis stood a fare chance against any heavyweight in hostory, at his worst journeyman beat him!

the holyfield that lewis fought is still better than walcott and schmeling, those are joe's big wins. Vitali is better than jersey joe walcott too. Lennox Lewis beat better quality competition if you actually look into it with proper research. Those guys like braddock, carnera, sharkey, they arent good.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 02:35 PM

joelouisbarrow

01-23-2007, 02:39 PM

the holyfield that lewis fought is still better than walcott and schmeling, those are joe's big wins. Vitali is better than jersey joe walcott too. Lennox Lewis beat better quality competition if you actually look into it with proper research. Those guys like braddock, carnera, sharkey, they arent good.

what authority do you have to say the likes of braddock, sharkey etc were`nt good ?....experts in this game ( who`ve forgotten more than you`ll ever know ) rate the brown bomber as one of the greatest ever if not THE greatest..yet you ridicule his opposition....he beat huge men like primo...men who out-weighed him by 60 pounds ( galento )....he fought some great great fighters ( buddy & max baer, schmeling, tommy farr, simon , godoy ,pastor etc ) and was champ for 12 years

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 02:45 PM

what authority do you have to say the likes of braddock, sharkey etc were`nt good ?....experts in this game ( who`ve forgotten more than you`ll ever know ) rate the brown bomber as one of the greatest ever if not THE greatest..yet you ridicule his opposition....he beat huge men like primo...men who out-weighed him by 60 pounds ( galento )....he fought some great great fighters ( buddy & max baer, schmeling, tommy farr, simon , godoy ,pastor etc ) and was champ for 12 years

braddock, carnera and shakrey are the worst heavyweights ever. Vitali klitckho is better than walcott, jersey joe really wasnt that good. Yet joe louis needed a gift decision to beat him. The fact that you just mentioned those guys as great fighters just shows how clueless you really are. Joe Louis is always dubbed as fighting bums.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 02:46 PM

No....he wasn't.

Yes.... he was Walcott is vastly overrated, holyfiled would have schooled him.

Kid Achilles

01-23-2007, 03:10 PM

Kid would favour dempsey to beat foreman, nuff said, lol.

Dempsey did his best work against big punchers who telegraphed their punches. Foreman fits the mold to a T. Stylistically, I have to favor Dempsey.

SABBATH

01-23-2007, 03:13 PM

Dempsey did his best work against big punchers who telegraphed their punches. Foreman fits the mold to a T. Stylistically, I have to favor Dempsey.

Foreman did his best work against swarmers and the 'big puncher who telegraphed his punches" Luis Angel Firpo knocked Dempsey clean out of the ring.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 03:13 PM

Dempsey did his best work against big punchers who telegraphed their punches. Foreman fits the mold to a T. Stylistically, I have to favor Dempsey.

willard and firpo /= foreman, get that through ur head.

Dempsey 1919

01-23-2007, 03:22 PM

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 03:42 PM

Yes.... he was Walcott is vastly overrated, holyfiled would have schooled him.

The Holyfield who faced Lewis was not as good as the Walcott who faced Louis or the one who lost to Marciano. Joe was a much slicker boxer, had a far better defense, and hit as hard as Holyfield and was probably a better counter-puncher as well.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 03:44 PM

The Holyfield who faced Lewis was not as good as the Walcott who faced Louis or the one who lost to Marciano.

He lost to ezzard twice, then finally beat him, lost to louis twice and lost to marciano twice. Yeah he was so great. Walcott wouldnt beat klitchko or tua, i guarantee both would hand him his ass.

Holyfield was coming off 5 straight wins, yet u downplay him cuz he lost to lennox, guess what walcott wouldnt even touch lewis.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 03:49 PM

He lost to ezzard twice, then finally beat him, lost to louis twice and lost to marciano twice. Yeah he was so great. Walcott wouldnt beat klitchko or tua, i guarantee both would hand him his ass.

Holyfield was coming off 5 straight wins, yet u downplay him cuz he lost to lennox, guess what walcott wouldnt even touch lewis.

Holyfield lost to Bowe twice, Lewis twice, and Moorer once. His biggest claim to fame is one "1-Point" win over a fat Bowe and an upset win over a post-prison/overrated comebacking Tyson.

By the time Holyfield met Lewis his best days were behind him, which puts him about equal to the Walcott who still found enough in him to stop Charles with one punch.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 03:51 PM

Holyfield lost to Bowe twice, Lewis twice, and Moorer once. His biggest claim to fame is one "1-Point" win over a fat Bowe and an upset win over a post-prions/overrated comebacking Tyson.

He beat qawi twice, de leon, tyson twice, bowe, owned moorer in the rematch, and 10 other heavyweight champs. Dont hate cuz walcott doesnt touch his legacy. You can make an excuse for every win holy has, i dont care. He is better than schmeling and walcott, its not even close.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 03:56 PM

He beat qawi twice, de leon, tyson twice, bowe, owned moorer in the rematch, and 10 other heavyweight champs. Dont hate cuz walcott doesnt touch his legacy. You can make an excuse for every win holy has, i dont care. He is better than schmeling and walcott, its not even close.

Fabulouis; but Qawi was his 12th pro-fight.....much water had passed under the bridge between then and teh Lewis fights....and he should have stopped Moorer the fist time; the man had more glass in his chin that Tommy Morrison.

I'm not making any excuses; but stating facts. You're the one who's taking things out of context. Lewis was on the skids by the time he faced Lewis and Walcott, comparitively, was a better fighter at that stage of his career.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 04:02 PM

Fabulouis; but Qawi was his 12th pro-fight.....much water had passed under the bridge between then and teh Lewis fights....and he should have stopped Moorer the fist time; the man had more glass in his chin that Tommy Morrison.

I'm not making any excuses; but stating facts. You're the one who's taking things out of context. Lewis was on the skids by the time he faced Lewis and Walcott, comparitively, was a better fighter at that stage of his career.

dude the walcott ur talking about went 7-7 during that time frame, yeah thats not too good. The holyfield that lewis fought was the #1 ranked heavyweight in the world. The tyson he fought was a ranked contender. Lennox Lewis beat tony tucker, razor ruddock, tommy morrison, david tua, vitali klitchko, michael grant, ray mercer, holyfield, tyson, golota. His resume is incredible, why people hate on him, i dont know.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 04:09 PM

dude the walcott ur talking about went 7-7 during that time frame, yeah thats not too good. The holyfield that lewis fought was the #1 ranked heavyweight in the world. The tyson he fought was a ranked contender. Lennox Lewis beat tony tucker, razor ruddock, tommy morrison, david tua, vitali klitchko, michael grant, ray mercer, holyfield, tyson, golota. His resume is incredible, why people hate on him, i dont know.

I'm not "hating" on anyone. I rank Lewis in at #7 all time. I'm just stating that Holyfield was no spring chicken by the time he faced Lewis...and wen 2-6-1 in his next 9 fights....truthfully should have been 1-8, with his only win coming over Rahman. He was done.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 04:11 PM

I'm not "hating" on anyone. I rank Lewis in at #7 all time. I'm just stating that Holyfield was no spring chicken by the time he faced Lewis...and wen 2-6-1 in his next 9 fights....truthfully should have been 1-8, with his only win coming over Rahman. He was done.

first of all, you can actually debate that he won the 2nd lewis fight, he beat ruiz the first time, i saw it myself. The thing that matters is that he was coming off 5 wins heading INTO the fight. Will floyd's win over de la hoya mean **** if oscar loses 3 straight after this? Everytime holyfield wins a close decision or gets a draw, you just give it to the other person, i call that hating.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 04:16 PM

first of all, you can actually debate that he won the 2nd lewis fight, he beat ruiz the first time, i saw it myself. The thing that matters is that he was coming off 5 wins heading INTO the fight. Will floyd's win over de la hoya mean **** if oscar loses 3 straight after this? Everytime holyfield wins a close decision or gets a draw, you just give it to the other person, i call that hating.

The second Lewis fight was Evander's last great stand IMO; but I still had him losing. Ruiz kicked his ass in the first fight and the judges robbed him blind. And I don't care who it is, if I feel a fighter "lost" a draw, I'm stating as such. Holy's five wins coming into the first Lewis....Bobby Czyz, Mike Tyson, Bite Tyson, Michael Moorer, and Vaugh "Freakin'" Bean.

...that's two top contenders, one fat middlweight/light-havy (who he couldn't even drop) and one pretender.....so Holy was a top contender......but still on the down side, as he had been since the first Moorer fight.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 04:18 PM

The second Lewis fight was Evander's last great stand IMO; but I still had him losing. Ruiz kicked his ass in the first fight and the judges robbed him blind. And I don't care who it is, if I feel a fighter "lost" a draw, I'm stating as such. Holy's five wins coming into the first Lewis....Bobby Czyz, Mike Tyson, Bite Tyson, Michael Moorer, and Vaugh "Freakin'" Bean.

...that's two top contenders, one fat middlweight/light-havy (who he couldn't even drop) and one pretender.....so Holy was a top contender......but still on the down side, as he had been since the first Moorer fight.

his wins over tyson are still better than anything walcott has ever done, that tyson would have smoked walcott nicely.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 04:21 PM

his wins over tyson are still better than anything walcott has ever done, that tyson would have smoked walcott nicely.

That Tyson....I"m not so sure; but I'd bet That Charles who beat Walcott would have schooled "That" Evander.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 04:23 PM

That Tyson....I"m not so sure; but I'd bet That Charles who beat Walcott would have schooled "That" Evander.

Walcott and Shcmeling arent even in thier league. They dont deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as tyson, holy, bowe and lennox.

Kid Achilles

01-23-2007, 04:30 PM

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 04:36 PM

Walcott and Shcmeling arent even in thier league. They dont deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as tyson, holy, bowe and lennox.

Oh please! You better go back and watch some footage. Bowe doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as a Schmeling or a Walcott...both would box his ears off. Who, besides Holyfield, did Bowe EVER beat? Who?!

The post prison Tyson could have been, and more than likely would have been outboxed and countered to death by both Walcott and Schmeling.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 04:42 PM

Oh please! You better go back and watch some footage. Bowe doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as a Schmeling or a Walcott...both would box his ears off. Who, besides Holyfield, did Bowe EVER beat? Who?!

The post prison Tyson could have been, and more than likely would have been outboxed and countered to death by both Walcott and Schmeling.

Lmao at u saying walcott is better, this is a joke. bowe would smash his glass chin. Walcott became a somebody from 1946-1953 and his record during those years was 15-9.

Bowe has beat plenty of ranked contenders, he doesnt get ko'd and lose to guys with ****ty records.

The fact that you think tyson would have lost to walcott just shows ur vulnerabilty, tyson would have knocked him out in 2 rounds. Walcott losses to virtually every good fighter he faces.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 04:44 PM

Really? I don't agree. Walcott pretty much beat Louis the first time around, so says just about anyone in attendance. Louis wasn't at his very best athleticism wise but he still had great skill and heart and was better than Tyson was at that point IMO. A knockout victory and decision win over Ezzard Charles are impressive victories as well.

I would say Walcott and Holyfield are pretty damn close in terms of greatness. I think Walcott looks more impressive on film. Better and sharper punch, more elusive, smoother mover etc. Holyfield had a great chin, which is significant, especially at heavyweight, but I think Walcott was more skilled and talented.

Both guys are right outside the top ten IMO.

Walcott and holyfiled are equal, someone must really love the old era, ur a moron. Holyfield has a much better resume, he is easily top 10. Yeah he beat better fighters than ur god dempsey and jack johnson, i know its hard for you to believe but its true.

The only reason u even say walcott would have beat that tyson is cuz holyfield beat him, what happened in the fights before holy and after holy, tyson squashed his opponents.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 04:47 PM

Lmao at u saying walcott is better, this is a joke. bowe would smash his glass chin. Walcott became a somebody from 1946-1953 and his record during those years was 15-9.

Bowe has beat plenty of ranked contenders, he doesnt get ko'd and lose to guys with ****ty records.

The fact that you think tyson would have lost to walcott just shows ur vulnerabilty, tyson would have knocked him out in 2 rounds. Walcott losses to virtually every good fighter he faces.

Name 1....just ONE ranked contender who was worth a **** that Bowe beat....just one!....and don't give me that Pierre Coetzer crap! Maybe Herbie Hyde?! :lol1: NO, wait....Larry "Freakin'" Donald, right?! LOL!!! Bowe wins the title and proceeds to defend against a shot and drunk Michael Dokes and Jessie "Who hasn't beaten me" Fergussen!! Bowe=overrated I'm surpised you're defending the man who ran from your man Lewis!

Tyson after prison was not the same animal as the one who went in....if you don't know that, you're the one exposing YOURself, because that much is obvious! After prison he had no head movement, abandoned the peek-a-boo and wouldn't know a multi-punch counter combination if it bit him on the ass.....which made him susceptable to ANY skilled boxer with heart.......insert Max Schmeling and Jersey Joe Walcott here.

Good grief.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 04:51 PM

Name 1....just ONE ranked contender who was worth a **** that Bowe beat....just one!....and don't give me that Pierre Coetzer crap! Maybe Herbie Hyde?! :lol1: NO, wait....Larry "Freakin'" Donald, right?! LOL!!! Bowe wins the title and proceeds to defend against a shot and drunk Michael Dokes and Jessie "Who hasn't beaten me" Fergussen!! Bowe=overrated I'm surpised you're defending the man who ran from your man Lewis!

Tyson after prison was not the same animal as the one who went in....if you don't know that, you're the one exposing YOURself, because that much is obvious! After prison he had no head movement, abandoned the peek-a-boo and wouldn't know a multi-punch counter combination if it bit him on the ass.....which made him susceptable to ANY skilled boxer with heart.......insert Max Schmeling and Jersey Joe Walcott here.

Good grief.

Name one guy walcott beat that he hasnt lost to? On top of that he was actually a tomato can for most of his career.

Kid Achilles

01-23-2007, 04:52 PM

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 04:53 PM

Name one guy walcott beat that he hasnt lost to? On top of that he was actually a tomato can for most of his career.

If you knew anything about Walcott you'd know most of those fights he lost were on short notice and that he was fighting to support a houseful of kids while working another job. It was only shortly before he "Beat" Louis that he started getting time to properly train for fights.

Kid Achilles

01-23-2007, 04:54 PM

The only reason u even say walcott would have beat that tyson is cuz holyfield beat him, what happened in the fights before holy and after holy, tyson squashed his opponents.

Yeah man, I love watching Tyson kicking the **** out of Douglas, Lewis, Williams, and McBride. Some of his best knockouts. Highlight-reel material.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 04:58 PM

If you knew anything about Walcott you'd know most of those fights he lost were on short notice and that he was fighting to support a houseful of kids while working another job. It was only shortly before he "Beat" Louis that he started getting time to properly train for fights.

So thats the excuse ur gonna make now, that he didnt have time to prepare for his fights? Bowe is a better boxer, i have nothing to prove to a guy that resorts to these excuses.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 04:59 PM

So thats the excuse ur gonna make now, that he didnt have time to prepare for his fights? Bowe is a better boxer, i have nothing to prove to a guy that resorts to these excuses.

Excuses? Man, you're just showing your ignorance, now.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 05:00 PM

The sport was different back then. Fighters fought more often and were paid less for their efforts. Losses were much more commonplace, even to inferior competition. It's a well known fact that Walcott was malnourished and underfed for his early career. It's also been rumored that he wore the cuffs in a few of his fights.

Put Walcott in todays version of the sport where he's better protected, better fed, doesn't have to take part in fixed fights, and let's see how many less losses he has.

This is part of the reason why you have no business comparing fighters from different eras and then getting so upset when many people disagree with you. You don't consider these things while many of us do.

If you put walcott in todays version of the sport, its all speculation, you cant prove anything. But the fact of the matter is in his own time, he mostly lost to the name fighters.

Isnt it funny that whenever sabbath and sir jose come and quote you, all of a sudden you vanish. I always thought that was funny.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 05:01 PM

Excuses? Man, you're just showing your ignorance, now.

Well come on now, if hes better than bowe than you could at least name someone he beat that he didnt lose too. Could have , would have, should have. Thast what i call it, bowe would have smashed his glass chin.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 05:14 PM

Well come on now, if hes better than bowe than you could at least name someone he beat that he didnt lose too. Could have , would have, should have. Thast what i call it, bowe would have smashed his glass chin.

1. Walcott's chin was just as good or bad as Bowe's, at the very least as evidenced by Bowe's avoidance of any big punching opposisiton. Bowe had no defence of which to speak as evidenced by his consistantly eating close to 60% of the punches thrown his way.

2. So, you're telling me a man can do just as good fighting on one week's or less notice as if he'd had an appropriate time to train and get in shape? Bowe could have beaten Holyfield in 1992 if he found out about the fight one week prior?

3. Why are you specifiying "someone he didn't lose to"? Doesn't it say something about a man/fighter if he can improve his game plan, learn from his mistakes and come back to win. I'd think, you being a Holyfield fan, that would count for something.....'cause using that standard, post-prison Tyson is the only win he ever had that really counts. No Bowe, No Moorer....tough call on your part.

...you have to have equal standards to judge equally, otherwise you must make allowances.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 06:12 PM

1. Walcott's chin was just as good or bad as Bowe's, at the very least as evidenced by Bowe's avoidance of any big punching opposisiton. Bowe had no defence of which to speak as evidenced by his consistantly eating close to 60% of the punches thrown his way.

2. So, you're telling me a man can do just as good fighting on one week's or less notice as if he'd had an appropriate time to train and get in shape? Bowe could have beaten Holyfield in 1992 if he found out about the fight one week prior?

3. Why are you specifiying "someone he didn't lose to"? Doesn't it say something about a man/fighter if he can improve his game plan, learn from his mistakes and come back to win. I'd think, you being a Holyfield fan, that would count for something.....'cause using that standard, post-prison Tyson is the only win he ever had that really counts. No Bowe, No Moorer....tough call on your part.

...you have to have equal standards to judge equally, otherwise you must make allowances.

so wins over qawi doesnt count. I would take an old foreman and an old holmes over an old archie moore any day of the week.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 06:24 PM

so wins over qawi doesnt count. I would take an old foreman and an old holmes over an old archie moore any day of the week.

Qawi, for the last time, was at Cruiserweight; and Dwight was a blown up light-heavy past his best, if you want to know the truth.....though that win was impressive as hell, given his lack of pro experience at that point.

And if you want to take an old Foreman...who beat just one top contender in his comeback...Moorer and an old Holmes, who beat just one top contender in his comeback....Mercer, over an old Archie Moore, who beat top rated Nino Valdes, while also defending his World Light Heavyweight Championship during the same stretch against top rated Harold Johnson, former champ Joey Maxim, and middlweight king Olslon (that's the best of three weight divisions while being an old man).....be my guest.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 06:27 PM

Qawi, for the last time, was at Cruiserweight; and Dwight was a blown up light-heavy past his best, if you want to know the truth. And if you want to take an old Foreman...who beat just one top contender in his comeback...Moorer and an old Holmes, who beat just one top contender in his comeback....Mercer, over an old Archie Moore, who beat top rated Nino Valdes, while also defending his World Light Heavyweight Championship during the same stretch against top rated Harold Johnson, former champ Joey Maxim, and middlweight king Olslon (that's the best of three weight divisions while being an old man).....be my guest.

Qawi was phenominal from 81-86, the first win over him is as legit as you can get. The archie moore that rocky fought would have lost to both holmes and foreman, holyfield ended thier cinderella story comebacks cuz holy gets the job done.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 06:33 PM

Qawi was phenominal from 81-86, the first win over him is as legit as you can get. The archie moore that rocky fought would have lost to both holmes and foreman, holyfield ended thier cinderella story comebacks cuz holy gets the job done.

Do what? Man, look, Moorer was an active 42 and consistantly fought and beat the best....he very well would have outboxed old slow George and could have outboxed old slow Larry too. You're being delusional if you're saying he had no chance against those two relics.

Besides Mercer and Moorer, name two top fighters either man beat during their well choreoghaphed comebacks. Foreman was outboxed by Tommy Morrison of all people....and damn near lost to Alex Stewart, who beat his face to hamburger, and don't forget Moorer was beating him as well before his glass jaw caved in...and you're impressed with Holy's victory over him. He did what was expected of him...he outboxed the slow old man.

Larry outboxed one of the most one-dimensional fighters out there, Ray Mercer, and had been stopped in 4 by Tyson four years before and all Holy could manage was a decision, which was no more than Oliver McCall could do.

You've got a strange sense of what's impressive.

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 06:35 PM

Do what? Man, look, Moorer was an active 42 and consistantly fought and beat the best....he very well would have outboxed old slow George and could have outboxed old slow Larry too. You're being delusional if you're saying he had no chance against those two relics.

Besides Mercer and Moorer, name two top fighters either man beat during their well choreoghaphed comebacks. Foreman was outboxed by Tommy Morrison of all people....and damn near lost to Alex Stewart, who beat his face to hamburger, and don't forget Moorer was beating him as well before his glass jaw caved in...and you're impressed with Holy's victory over him. He did what was expected of him...he outboxed the slow old man.

Larry outboxed one of the most one-dimensional fighters out there, Ray Mercer, and had been stopped in 4 by Tyson four years before and all Holy could manage was a decision, which was no more than Oliver McCall could do.

You've got a strange sense of what's impressive.

Yeah, larry defeated an undefeated champ and it put him in the top 5 rankings. Foreman was coming off 20 straight wins, what more can u ask holy to do, get tyson out of prison and fight him, o wait he did that and kicked his ass.

K-DOGG

01-23-2007, 06:43 PM

Yeah, larry defeated an undefeated champ and it put him in the top 5 rankings. Foreman was coming off 20 straight wins, what more can u ask holy to do, get tyson out of prison and fight him, o wait he did that and kicked his ass.

I'll be the first to admit that that situation surrounding Holyfields first reign were less than ideal. He did do what he had to do. I'm not saying Holyfield isn't great....he is; but I feel his losses in his prime to Bowe and Moorer hurt him immensely. Those were the fist two real top 10 opponents he defended against....and he lost.

Yes, the comeback was impressive as hell, beating Tyson was very impressive, even if that Tyson was overrated and that Holyfield was underrated, as he was believed shot; but that's just not enough for me to move him into the Top Ten when there are so many other fighters who did better than he. Holy is just outside of my personal Top Ten, near Charles, Frazier, Jeffries, and Walcott.

Hydro

01-23-2007, 06:47 PM

i'd make these guys in their primes favorites over prime Foreman:

Ali (obviously)
Liston
Lewis (slight)
Holmes

Heckler

01-23-2007, 06:48 PM

Personally don't believe Holyfield stands a chance against a prime Foreman. Holyfield isn't slick enough to get on his bike and avoid George, to enjoy some sucess he would have to live in the eye of the storm and counter George. Although evander has huge heart he doesn't have the durability nor the strength to deal with George at that range, even landing 2 punches to 1 of Georges it's just a matter of time before Holyfield crumbles. Whatever advantages the older, wiser Foreman has over the younger one is not enough to offset the huge physical advantages Foreman enjoyed in his youth. Foremans handspeed was literally twice as good in his youth, that sledgehammer jab was much more effective and carried more snap as did those sweeping hooks. Foreman was gifted with amazing physical gifts, and the reckless aggression that he displayed in his youth was a stylistic trait that allowed him to accentuate and impose such physical advantages on his opponents. There was a downside, IF an opponent could last the initial barrage their chance of sucess increases a considerable amount.... but that is a big IF, and it only becomes relevant with a handful of opponents in my opinion.

phallus

01-23-2007, 07:37 PM

i'd make these guys in their primes favorites over prime Foreman:

Ali (obviously)
Liston
Lewis (slight)
Holmes

i've thought about this one alot. Big Len is definitley skilled enough to outbox foreman and keep him trapped on the outside, eating jabs and big right hands. the only problem with lewis is he's a slow starter, and foreman was a fast starter. lewis also has a questionable chin, if he can get through the first 5 rounds he'd beat foreman, if not he gets knocked out quick

SABBATH

01-23-2007, 07:43 PM

i've thought about this one alot. Big Len is definitley skilled enough to outbox foreman and keep him trapped on the outside, eating jabs and big right hands. the only problem with lewis is he's a slow starter, and foreman was a fast starter. lewis also has a questionable chin, if he can get through the first 5 rounds he'd beat foreman, if not he gets knocked out quickThat about sums it up. If Rachman and McCall can one shot Lewis then a Foreman barrage can certainly send Lewis down and out.

Mike Tyson77

01-23-2007, 09:05 PM

Mike Tyson77

01-23-2007, 09:11 PM

brownpimp88

01-23-2007, 09:12 PM

I'll be the first to admit that that situation surrounding Holyfields first reign were less than ideal. He did do what he had to do. I'm not saying Holyfield isn't great....he is; but I feel his losses in his prime to Bowe and Moorer hurt him immensely. Those were the fist two real top 10 opponents he defended against....and he lost.

Yes, the comeback was impressive as hell, beating Tyson was very impressive, even if that Tyson was overrated and that Holyfield was underrated, as he was believed shot; but that's just not enough for me to move him into the Top Ten when there are so many other fighters who did better than he. Holy is just outside of my personal Top Ten, near Charles, Frazier, Jeffries, and Walcott.

If joe frazier and holyfield arent in ur top 10, then to me ur just a guy that looks at legacy rather than how good they really are. Its so easy to diss marciano's padded legacy, tunney doesnt belong in the top 10 at heavy, but i know he is in ur list, which is laughable. You probably have dempsey and johnson on ur list too. They are in ur top 10 even though thier era relied on having middleweights and light heavyweights as the top contenders, go figure.

See when i watch fighters, i look at everything. When you watch some of ur favourite fighters, you will notice weaknesses but you wont really talk about it on forums. Gene Tunney doesnt belong in top 10, why is he in ur list? Cuz you were impressed with what he did at 175 and how he beat a middleweight 3 times, lol.

To me this is how it goes:

Tyson did enough to make top 10
Lennox did enough to make top 10
Holyfield did enough to make top 10

Bowe on the other hand is an underachiever, Dempsey drew the colour line which prevented the real challengers from getting title shots. Jack johnson was too busy getting dropped by a middleweight.

Mike Tyson77

01-23-2007, 09:14 PM

Jack johnson was too busy getting dropped by a middleweight.

He got right back up and knocked that middleweights teeth right out of his mouth to. :owned:

SABBATH

01-23-2007, 09:34 PM

You do know Baer KILLED a man with his punches. Yes I'm well aware of Frankie Campbell being killed in the ring against Baer. I'm also aware of Gaetan Hart, Boom Boom Mancini, Lupe Pintor, Wilford Scypion etc...who killed men with their punches and I wouldn't favour them against Foreman either.

KidDynamite86

01-23-2007, 10:22 PM

Wow, I just had to read this whole thread from page 1 again since I've been busy with finals to study for.

I learned so much in this thread. :) Foreman seems so much less "invincible" than I had him in my mind.

Yogi

01-24-2007, 12:34 AM

Foreman seems so much less "invincible" than I had him in my mind.

And yet, I'm betting that in your updated and current mindset, Foreman's still much more "invincible" than he is in my own.

RockyMarcianofan00

01-24-2007, 12:53 AM

And yet, I'm betting that in your updated and current mindset, Foreman's still much more "invincible" than he is in my own.

lol

Guys who are strong, fast, or both always tend to seem invincible...

Thats why you see people always saying Foreman, Ali, or Tyson will win against anyone....

Life's troublesome...Though Foreman, Tyson, as well as many will always have "a punchers chance"......

RockyMarcianofan00

01-24-2007, 12:55 AM

lol

Guys who are strong, fast, or both always tend to seem invincible...

Thats why you see people always saying Foreman, Ali, or Tyson will win against anyone....

Life's troublesome...Though Foreman, Tyson, as well as many will always have "a punchers chance"......

Wow I didn't even realize I typed Life's Troublesome....LOL my current mindset is alittle depressing to say the least...

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 11:16 AM

When will Holyfield get his credit??????????? You do recall Holyfield also BEAT Bowe and Moorer right? Holyfield should be around 6 or 7 on any top ten.

Holy also lost to Bowe twice out of three meetings and was knocked out once, which means he lost the series big time. That one win was by one point.

Yes he beat Moorer; but was Moorer a great heavyweight? Who did he beat? Bert Cooper? Alex Stewart? Francois Botha? How about Axel Shulz? Which one of these wins made Moorer such a great heavyweight that Holyfield going 1-1 with him automatically makes him a Top tenner?

Hydro

01-24-2007, 11:34 AM

Holy also lost to Bowe twice out of three meetings and was knocked out once, which means he lost the series big time. That one win was by one point.

Yes he beat Moorer; but was Moorer a great heavyweight? Who did he beat? Bert Cooper? Alex Stewart? Francois Botha? How about Axel Shulz? Which one of these wins made Moorer such a great heavyweight that Holyfield going 1-1 with him automatically makes him a Top tenner?

Holyfield struggling in title defenses and losing to guys like Moorer made other HWs in the era overrated, and therefore some of Holyfield's wins overrated.

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 12:47 PM

If joe frazier and holyfield arent in ur top 10, then to me ur just a guy that looks at legacy rather than how good they really are. Its so easy to diss marciano's padded legacy, tunney doesnt belong in the top 10 at heavy, but i know he is in ur list, which is laughable. You probably have dempsey and johnson on ur list too. They are in ur top 10 even though thier era relied on having middleweights and light heavyweights as the top contenders, go figure.

See when i watch fighters, i look at everything. When you watch some of ur favourite fighters, you will notice weaknesses but you wont really talk about it on forums. Gene Tunney doesnt belong in top 10, why is he in ur list? Cuz you were impressed with what he did at 175 and how he beat a middleweight 3 times, lol.

To me this is how it goes:

Tyson did enough to make top 10
Lennox did enough to make top 10
Holyfield did enough to make top 10

Bowe on the other hand is an underachiever, Dempsey drew the colour line which prevented the real challengers from getting title shots. Jack johnson was too busy getting dropped by a middleweight.

My lists do take accomplishment into play, yes; but they are more based on skill displayed throughout a career, greatness proved in the ring, and has a touch of "how would they fair against any other fighter who ever lived.

I have had Frazier, Holyfield, and Tyson in my Top Ten when I was younger; but had to slide them due to the fighters who replaced them being, IMO, better.

1. Muhammad Ali......had to give him the #1 slot back primarily because I believe his competition was better than Louis's overall. Also, he is the fastest heavyweight of hand and foot who ever lived. He was eerily clever in the ring, flowed like water; he could adapt to his opposistion if "Plan A" wasn't working. He found a way to win against all odds. When the chips were down, you could never count him out.

2. Joe Louis.....Argueably the finest technical heavyweight who has ever lived. His punches were exact, precise, and served a purpose; he could knock you out with damn near any punch he threw and threw them all well, especially the jab, which is argueably the best in heavyweight history. He, even without WWII, defended his title 25 times over the course 8 years. Like Ali and all the greats, when pushed to the limit and his back placed against the wall, he always found a way to win as he did with Billy Conn when his title was lost. On the occassions where he faced a man more than once, he proved himself the better fighter in the rematch: Schmeling and Walcott are the most notable examples because he avenged a devastating loss under the most intense of circumstances and a perceived (and actual) loss at the end of his career when he was no longer a young man.

3. Jack Dempsey....Dempsey gets the number 3 slot due to a variety of reasons. He was the first truly modern heavyweight, which is notable; but more importantly, he was one of the most tenacious, vicious, and tireless aggressors the ring has ever seen. He was in there to kill or be killed; there was no quit in him, not an ounce. In two fights that I'm aware, Dempsey more or less admitted having very little recollection of knocking his opponent out after being nailed himself, one of which was the famous Luis Firpo fight. This is an example of his indomidable will to win in an age where there were very few rules to protect the fighter. He was a savage when the bell rang and would be a holy terror for any opponent past or present; and, as he proved agaisnt Tommy Gibbons, who was an accomplished technician of the day, he was capable of "boxing" when necessary: truly a man ahead of his time.

4. Jack Johnson.....Argueably the finest defensive heavyweight who has ever donned gloves. Johnson, after he came into his own, was light-years ahead of the competition, utilizing a blocking technique than picked off virtually every punch that came his way and allowed him countering opportunities. He had a fine jab which he could snake into a sneaky left hook. He possessed surprising strength on the inside, which he used to tie up his opponent and help wear them out down the stretch. A true thinking man's fighter, while boring to watch, he was extremely effective and capable of beating just about any heavyweight who has ever lived.

5. Larry Holmes....Had, along with Louis and Liston, one of the best jabs, if not the best, that the division has ever seen. A consumate professional, Larry would come into the ring with a well thought out game plan and stick to it until his opponent was either broken down and ready to be taken out, or until the judges announced the decision in his favour as was seen in his high-takes showdown with Gerry Cooney. He made 20 successful defenses of the heavyweight crown over the course of a 7 year reign and just nearly did tie Marciano's mark of 49-0. Larry displayed a fighter's heart on countless occassions, most notably against Weaver, Shavers, Snipes, and Witherspoon. Larry, quite often, was at his most dangerous when hurt and could never be counted out in his prime; argueably could have beaten any man who ever donned gloves.

6. Rocky Marciano....He was short, had short arms, was clumsy as hell in the beginning, and was one of the most awkward fighters ever to watch; but he made it work for him 49 times in a row. Argueably the best conditioned heavyweight to ever hold the crown; he had his body in condition to throw punches almost continuously for a full 15 rounds. Also, had a punch that could put any man on queer street; and once hurt, was as relentless as a pit-bull to get you out of there, even if it meant bending the rules a little. Winning meant that much to him. He was more difficult to connect solidly on than is widey believed as he used his height, or lack of it, to his advantage against taller opponents, angling backwards in a crouch which forced taller opponents to get into his range in order to hit him, which opened up punching opportunites for Rocky. In addition to his longevity and toughness, he was tenacious. He would pound on you over and over on any target you gave him until they wore down and he then took them out. He may not be able to beat every heavyweight who ever lived; but, then again, he might as there is no blueprint as to how to beat him. Either way, they'd know they were in a scuffle by the time it ended.

7. Lennox Lewis...Was argueably the best figter in the post Tyson era beating every top contender available who would face him. His biggest assets were his size, power and boxing ability. He was big enough to keep most opponents on the outside with his telephone-pole jab and booming right hand. On the occassions where he was hurt, he showed heart; most notably against Bruno, Briggs, Holyfield, and Klitschko. On the occassions where he was defeated against McCall and Rahman, he avenged his defeats; against Rahman in a cold, calculating, and devastating fasion. By the time he retired, he had beaten every man he ever faced.

8. Sonny Liston.....As stated before, is in the top three as far as heavyweight jabs are concerned. And his was at the end of an 84" reach and tipped with a pair of mits so huge that he had to wear custom gloves. He was an above average technical fighter, who threw good combinations behind that smashing jab. He wa mean as they come in the ring; and powerful. He could take you out with any punch he threw. He was so dangerous that the manager of Floyd Patteson, the then-champ, refused to allow his charge to defend the belt against Sonny, even though he was the undisputed #1 contender and after cleaning out the best heavyweights in the division on his own to force a title shot, became recognized, more or less, as the uncrowned champion until he made it official by destroying Patterson in one. A prime Sonny Liston would be a dangerous opponent for any man to ever enter the ring past or present.

9. Gene Tunney.....One of the smartest fighter who ever lived. Tunney would study his opponents every move prior to getting in the ring with them, nitpicking every weakness and then exploiting them once in the ring. His fluid boxing style was a predecessor to Muhammad Ali, as he danced on his toes, fired a snapping jab and good straight right hand to control and dictate the pace of his bouts. Biggest heavyweight accomplishment was the dual defeat of Jack Dempsey, who while past his prime, was still a formidable opponent. Tunney made beating him look easy. He threw fluid combinations with good power and could get down and dirty when necessary. Tunney was the epitome of a thinking man's fighter as Jack Johnson before him and was skilled enough to conceivably defeat every man to ever hold the title.

10. George Foreman.....Two words: power and achievement. George Foreman had the power to render any heavyweight who ever lived senseless and was a wrecking machine in his prime, destroying Frazier and Norton within two rounds. He also possessed a fighters most valuable asset, heart, which he displayed aginst Lyle, Holyfield, Stewart, and Moorer. The fact that this man came back after a ten year retirement and continued facing younger, faster, opposistion to win the World Heavyweight Championship at the age of 45 is testamount to his will to win.

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 01:03 PM

thanks k-dogg..a really lucid and incise description of your top 10...best post ive read on this forum as of yet..though you seem to have your # 1 & 2 the wrong way round :)

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 01:10 PM

Holy also lost to Bowe twice out of three meetings and was knocked out once, which means he lost the series big time. That one win was by one point.

Yes he beat Moorer; but was Moorer a great heavyweight? Who did he beat? Bert Cooper? Alex Stewart? Francois Botha? How about Axel Shulz? Which one of these wins made Moorer such a great heavyweight that Holyfield going 1-1 with him automatically makes him a Top tenner?

wtf did tunney do besides beating an out of his prime dempsey, he beat a bunch of light heavyweights and a middleweight. O wow, what a great heavyweight! This is a joke.

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 01:16 PM

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 01:19 PM

tunney lost 1 fight in his career..over 80 pro bouts and 1 loss...and that was against one of THE greatest fighters of all time...he was a smart thinker ( in and out of the ring )...easily one of the most adaptable heavyweights in history...he was ali before ali
Most of his fights were at light heavyweight, this is a thread based on who were the best heavyweights. I dont think joe frazier and holyfiled would get thier asses kicked by a middleweight. Joe Frazier easily accomplished more at Heavyweight, its a no brainer.

Joe Frazier was champ for 5 years during the peak of the division, what more can you ask than that.

Holyfield has beat like 10-12 former champs, tunney has beat 1, lmao.

SABBATH

01-24-2007, 01:24 PM

thanks k-dogg..a really lucid and incise description of your top 10...best post ive read on this forum as of yet..though you seem to have your # 1 & 2 the wrong way round :)No he's got #1 and #2 right!

Well written K-Dogg you make logical and justifiable points for each man. Our lists are a little different but I like that you have Foreman and Liston in there.

Foreman has the distinction of scoring KO's over top ten contenders from four different decades, the 60's (Chuvalo) 70's (Frazier, Norton, Lyle) 80's (Cooney) and 90's (Moorer).

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 01:33 PM

No he's got #1 and #2 right!

Well written K-Dogg you make logical and justifiable points for each man. Our lists are a little different but I like that you have Foreman and Liston in there.

Foreman has the distinction of scoring KO's over top ten contenders from four different decades, the 60's (Chuvalo) 70's (Frazier, Norton, Lyle) 80's (Cooney) and 90's (Moorer).

My top 10 is based on how good they are and how long of a title reign they had. I dont get why some people make frazier, holy and tyson as borderline and yet sonny liston is automatically top 10. Liston was champ for 15 minutes, his big wins are cleveland willams and floyd patterson, its not like his resume is incredible. This is my top 10 based on accomplishments and how good they are.

1.Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Joe Frazier
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike Tyson

Dempsey beat willard, firpo and sharkey. Yeah what a great resume for top 5. His best wins are gibbons and carpentier, two guys that are the same size as joe calzaghe.

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 01:35 PM

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 01:39 PM

My top 10 is based on how good they are and how long of a title reign they had. I dont get why some people make frazier, holy and tyson as borderline and yet sonny liston is automatically top 10. Liston was champ for 15 minutes, his big wins are cleveland willams and floyd patterson, its not like his resume is incredible. This is my top 10 based on accomplishments and how good they are.

1.Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Joe Frazier
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike Tyson

Dempsey beat willard, firpo and sharkey. Yeah what a great resume for top 5. His best wins are gibbons and carpentier, two guys that are the same size as joe calzaghe.

dissing dempsey again young man...tut tut tut

who did larry holmes beat....a finished ali, a mini me frazier, randall tex cobb, cooney ( the great white dopes ) ..not a great resumeeither..berbick and witherspoon were not that great imo

SABBATH

01-24-2007, 01:44 PM

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 01:45 PM

i liked frazier..i loved his swarming style BUT apart from ali and foreman who did he really fight ?...a blown up light heavy in foster...ellis and quarry who were only average imo and a handfull of non entities ( i cant even think of their names )....i always rated holyfield even back when he was a cruiser

who did dempsey fight, a blown up carpentier and gibbons, yeah thats what i thought. The truth is, besides ali, no one really fought great competition.

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 01:46 PM

Our lists are identical although the order is very close but slightly different.

that is cuz we actually use logic, could u post ur list just for fun.

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 01:50 PM

who did dempsey fight, a blown up carpentier and gibbons, yeah thats what i thought. The truth is, besides ali, no one really fought great competition.

yet all your arguments against louis, dempsey etc seem to stem from their lack of quality opposition BUT your arguments for lewis, holmes etc comes from their supposedly better opposition BUT then you say ali was the only heavy to have quality opposition..im confused

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 01:52 PM

dissing dempsey again young man...tut tut tut

who did larry holmes beat....a finished ali, a mini me frazier, randall tex cobb, cooney ( the great white dopes ) ..not a great resumeeither..berbick and witherspoon were not that great imo

20 title defences> 6

SABBATH

01-24-2007, 01:53 PM

that is cuz we actually use logic, could u post ur list just for fun. This is off the top of my head. With some thought I might reverse some of the orders except for #1 & #2. Dempsey might creep in there somewhere but no higher than 9th IMO.

1) MUHAMMAD ALI
2) JOE LOUIS
3) SONNY LISTON
4) GEORGE FOREMAN
5) JOE FRAZIER
6) LARRY HOLMES
7) EVANDER HOLYFIELD
8) LENNOX LEWIS
9) ROCKY MARCIANO
10) MIKE TYSON

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 01:53 PM

yet all your arguments against louis, dempsey etc seem to stem from their lack of quality opposition BUT your arguments for lewis, holmes etc comes from their supposedly better opposition BUT then you say ali was the only heavy to have quality opposition..im confused

Ali beat liston, foreman, frazier, patterson,norton, foster, terrell and many other good fighters. There is no doubt he is better than joe louis.

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 01:55 PM

This is off the top of my head. With some thought I might reverse some of the orders except for #1 & #2. Dempsey might creep in there somewhere but no higher than 9th IMO.

1) MUHAMMAD ALI
2) JOE LOUIS
3) SONNY LISTON
4) GEORGE FOREMAN
5) JOE FRAZIER
6) LARRY HOLMES
7) EVANDER HOLYFIELD
8) LENNOX LEWIS
9) ROCKY MARCIANO
10) MIKE TYSON

Damn thats prolly better than my list, props. Both of us realize that jack johnson and jack dempsey had extremely weak competiton, the others just wont get it, its sad.

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 01:55 PM

20 title defences> 6

and of those 20 how many were any good ?....2, 3 maybe

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 01:57 PM

and of those 20 how many were any good ?....2, 3 maybe

brennan, miske, the guy with a 41-33 record, gibbons, carpentier and firpo, yeah that equals garbage. You wont get it, its pointless even trying to discuss this with you.

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 01:59 PM

Ali beat liston, foreman, frazier, patterson,norton, foster, terrell and many other good fighters. There is no doubt he is better than joe louis.

ali made a lot of fighters look good...norton was nothing special, foster was just a light heavy, liston was old and finished, foreman was a school ground bully, patterson was old ( and ancient in fight 2 )...

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 02:01 PM

ali made a lot of fighters look good...norton was nothing special, foster was just a light heavy, liston was old and finished, foreman was a school ground bully, patterson was old ( and ancient in fight 2 )...

Dude, what are you doing? Are you suggesting joe louis beat better comp. This is a joke, there is a reason why ali is #1. I dont know, cuz he fought better comp.

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 02:01 PM

Damn thats prolly better than my list, props. Both of us realize that jack johnson and jack dempsey had extremely weak competiton, the others just wont get it, its sad.

whats sad is your lack of respect of the fighters of old...your like a lot of know-it-all kids...beligerent and always right

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 02:04 PM

Dude, what are you doing? Are you suggesting joe louis beat better comp. This is a joke, there is a reason why ali is #1. I dont know, cuz he fought better comp.

actually this wasnt an ali/louis argument...it was your audacity at saying dempsey was a bum cause of his lack of opposition ( in your opinion )

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 02:07 PM

heres a name for you to mull over...mike tyson....iron mike...the man who ranked dempsey as one of THE all time greats...a man who admired dempseys ferocity AND even modelled himself after him...i think i`ll take the word of a fighter who was champion of the world before you were probably even born

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 02:07 PM

hemichromis

01-24-2007, 02:07 PM

whats sad is your lack of respect of the fighters of old...your like a lot of know-it-all kids...beligerent and always right

67-74 was the golden era of boxing dominated by three of the best ever heavys (foreman ali frazier) and supported by several top 20 fighters

no other era has come close

tyson had comaprably weak competition
as did:
dempsey
lewis
marciano
louis
holmes

those are all top ten (all-time) rated fighters but they didn;t fight other great fighters who weren't old or out of their prime.

for this reason i have ali first followed by louis then foreman etc etc

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 02:08 PM

thanks k-dogg..a really lucid and incise description of your top 10...best post ive read on this forum as of yet..though you seem to have your # 1 & 2 the wrong way round :)

Thank you. I enjoyed writing it. :)

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 02:09 PM

actually this wasnt an ali/louis argument...it was your audacity at saying dempsey was a bum cause of his lack of opposition ( in your opinion )

He just doesnt deserve to be in the top 10, neither does jack johnson. All the other guys in the top 10 beat better comp and before u start an argument on tyson fighting weak comp, let me put it in this way.

Michael spinks> gibbons and carpentier
38 year old larry holmes> willard and firpo
Tony Tucker and Trevor Berbick> brennan and miske

SABBATH

01-24-2007, 02:09 PM

Damn thats prolly better than my list, props. Both of us realize that jack johnson and jack dempsey had extremely weak competiton, the others just wont get it, its sad.I love Jack Johnson but I have studied him on film since 1979 and try as I might I just don't see how his style would translate into the modern era.

I like to think certain fighters come along who revolutionize have an impact and affect boxing and cause aspects of fighting styles to progress. Influences and the effect their styles have on the next generation have to be considered.

Without Sugar Ray Robinson maybe there's no Ali. Without Ali maybe there's no Holmes or Sugar Ray Leonard. Without Leonard maybe there's no Pretty Boy Floyd Mayweather etc...

The gloved era of boxing was really in it's infancy back at the turn of the century. It's ludicrous to believe that styles didn't evolve somewhat in the last 100 years.

Having said that I will also add that god given athleticism, like speed, reflexes, co-ordination, conditioning, strength, toughness, determination, and ring smarts have always been prevalent in all of the great fighter to varying degrees irregardless of the era in which they fought in.

PATO 1

01-24-2007, 02:10 PM

imo the people who could beat prime foreman are

Joe Louis
Muhammed Ali
Larry Holmes
Lennox Lewis
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 02:11 PM

wtf did tunney do besides beating an out of his prime dempsey, he beat a bunch of light heavyweights and a middleweight. O wow, what a great heavyweight! This is a joke.

He weighed in the upper 180's and had a frame that could carry more.....more than Roy Jones could at heavy. And his skill is apparent in any film you view....that's why he's there.

hemichromis

01-24-2007, 02:12 PM

My lists do take accomplishment into play, yes; but they are more based on skill displayed throughout a career, greatness proved in the ring, and has a touch of "how would they fair against any other fighter who ever lived.

I have had Frazier, Holyfield, and Tyson in my Top Ten when I was younger; but had to slide them due to the fighters who replaced them being, IMO, better.

1. Muhammad Ali......had to give him the #1 slot back primarily because I believe his competition was better than Louis's overall. Also, he is the fastest heavyweight of hand and foot who ever lived. He was eerily clever in the ring, flowed like water; he could adapt to his opposistion if "Plan A" wasn't working. He found a way to win against all odds. When the chips were down, you could never count him out.

2. Joe Louis.....Argueably the finest technical heavyweight who has ever lived. His punches were exact, precise, and served a purpose; he could knock you out with damn near any punch he threw and threw them all well, especially the jab, which is argueably the best in heavyweight history. He, even without WWII, defended his title 25 times over the course 8 years. Like Ali and all the greats, when pushed to the limit and his back placed against the wall, he always found a way to win as he did with Billy Conn when his title was lost. On the occassions where he faced a man more than once, he proved himself the better fighter in the rematch: Schmeling and Walcott are the most notable examples because he avenged a devastating loss under the most intense of circumstances and a perceived (and actual) loss at the end of his career when he was no longer a young man.

3. Jack Dempsey....Dempsey gets the number 3 slot due to a variety of reasons. He was the first truly modern heavyweight, which is notable; but more importantly, he was one of the most tenacious, vicious, and tireless aggressors the ring has ever seen. He was in there to kill or be killed; there was no quit in him, not an ounce. In two fights that I'm aware, Dempsey more or less admitted having very little recollection of knocking his opponent out after being nailed himself, one of which was the famous Luis Firpo fight. This is an example of his indomidable will to win in an age where there were very few rules to protect the fighter. He was a savage when the bell rang and would be a holy terror for any opponent past or present; and, as he proved agaisnt Tommy Gibbons, who was an accomplished technician of the day, he was capable of "boxing" when necessary: truly a man ahead of his time.

4. Jack Johnson.....Argueably the finest defensive heavyweight who has ever donned gloves. Johnson, after he came into his own, was light-years ahead of the competition, utilizing a blocking technique than picked off virtually every punch that came his way and allowed him countering opportunities. He had a fine jab which he could snake into a sneaky left hook. He possessed surprising strength on the inside, which he used to tie up his opponent and help wear them out down the stretch. A true thinking man's fighter, while boring to watch, he was extremely effective and capable of beating just about any heavyweight who has ever lived.

5. Larry Holmes....Had, along with Louis and Liston, one of the best jabs, if not the best, that the division has ever seen. A consumate professional, Larry would come into the ring with a well thought out game plan and stick to it until his opponent was either broken down and ready to be taken out, or until the judges announced the decision in his favour as was seen in his high-takes showdown with Gerry Cooney. He made 20 successful defenses of the heavyweight crown over the course of a 7 year reign and just nearly did tie Marciano's mark of 49-0. Larry displayed a fighter's heart on countless occassions, most notably against Weaver, Shavers, Snipes, and Witherspoon. Larry, quite often, was at his most dangerous when hurt and could never be counted out in his prime; argueably could have beaten any man who ever donned gloves.

6. Rocky Marciano....He was short, had short arms, was clumsy as hell in the beginning, and was one of the most awkward fighters ever to watch; but he made it work for him 49 times in a row. Argueably the best conditioned heavyweight to ever hold the crown; he had his body in condition to throw punches almost continuously for a full 15 rounds. Also, had a punch that could put any man on queer street; and once hurt, was as relentless as a pit-bull to get you out of there, even if it meant bending the rules a little. Winning meant that much to him. He was more difficult to connect solidly on than is widey believed as he used his height, or lack of it, to his advantage against taller opponents, angling backwards in a crouch which forced taller opponents to get into his range in order to hit him, which opened up punching opportunites for Rocky. In addition to his longevity and toughness, he was tenacious. He would pound on you over and over on any target you gave him until they wore down and he then took them out. He may not be able to beat every heavyweight who ever lived; but, then again, he might as there is no blueprint as to how to beat him. Either way, they'd know they were in a scuffle by the time it ended.

7. Lennox Lewis...Was argueably the best figter in the post Tyson era beating every top contender available who would face him. His biggest assets were his size, power and boxing ability. He was big enough to keep most opponents on the outside with his telephone-pole jab and booming right hand. On the occassions where he was hurt, he showed heart; most notably against Bruno, Briggs, Holyfield, and Klitschko. On the occassions where he was defeated against McCall and Rahman, he avenged his defeats; against Rahman in a cold, calculating, and devastating fasion. By the time he retired, he had beaten every man he ever faced.

8. Sonny Liston.....As stated before, is in the top three as far as heavyweight jabs are concerned. And his was at the end of an 84" reach and tipped with a pair of mits so huge that he had to wear custom gloves. He was an above average technical fighter, who threw good combinations behind that smashing jab. He wa mean as they come in the ring; and powerful. He could take you out with any punch he threw. He was so dangerous that the manager of Floyd Patteson, the then-champ, refused to allow his charge to defend the belt against Sonny, even though he was the undisputed #1 contender and after cleaning out the best heavyweights in the division on his own to force a title shot, became recognized, more or less, as the uncrowned champion until he made it official by destroying Patterson in one. A prime Sonny Liston would be a dangerous opponent for any man to ever enter the ring past or present.

9. Gene Tunney.....One of the smartest fighter who ever lived. Tunney would study his opponents every move prior to getting in the ring with them, nitpicking every weakness and then exploiting them once in the ring. His fluid boxing style was a predecessor to Muhammad Ali, as he danced on his toes, fired a snapping jab and good straight right hand to control and dictate the pace of his bouts. Biggest heavyweight accomplishment was the dual defeat of Jack Dempsey, who while past his prime, was still a formidable opponent. Tunney made beating him look easy. He threw fluid combinations with good power and could get down and dirty when necessary. Tunney was the epitome of a thinking man's fighter as Jack Johnson before him and was skilled enough to conceivably defeat every man to ever hold the title.

10. George Foreman.....Two words: power and achievement. George Foreman had the power to render any heavyweight who ever lived senseless and was a wrecking machine in his prime, destroying Frazier and Norton within two rounds. He also possessed a fighters most valuable asset, heart, which he displayed aginst Lyle, Holyfield, Stewart, and Moorer. The fact that this man came back after a ten year retirement and continued facing younger, faster, opposistion to win the World Heavyweight Championship at the age of 45 is testamount to his will to win.

i don't agree with all of your list but i do agree with your reasons

i would definately have frazier up there because he would stand a good chance (better than 50% ) of beating any boxer on that list BUT i know foreman and liston would take him out early and in devastating fashion!

SABBATH

01-24-2007, 02:13 PM

Oh, btw, Foreman stopped Cooney in 1990. ;)I know. Cooney was a top 10 contender from the 80's as Chuvalo was from the 60's.

hemichromis

01-24-2007, 02:14 PM

wtf did tunney do besides beating an out of his prime dempsey, he beat a bunch of light heavyweights and a middleweight. O wow, what a great heavyweight! This is a joke.

tunney has been underrated for a long time all people see of him is him beating a washed up dempsey but he was one of the best 'boxers' of all time he was quick smart and had power when he wanted it too.

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 02:14 PM

He weighed in the upper 180's and had a frame that could carry more.....more than Roy Jones could at heavy. And his skill is apparent in any film you view....that's why he's there.

So even though joe frazier was champ and made more title defences, tunney is there because of his potential. He belongs on a light heavyweight list, just like ezzard, nuff said.

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 02:14 PM

I know. Cooney was a top 10 contender from the 80's as Chuvalo was from the 60's.

LOL!!! Okay, gotcha. I thought you might have meant that; but wasn't sure. :D

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 02:16 PM

So even though joe frazier was champ and made more title defences, tunney is there because of his potential. He belongs on a light heavyweight list, just like ezzard, nuff said.

Frazier's just outside of my Top 10 and Tunney's just inside. I love Joe Frazier and it bugged me taking him out of the top 10 almost as much as having Ali in at #2 for a while did. So, who knows, Joe might make a comeback. Still, Tunney's ability cannot be denied and if he'd not retired, it would have been proven against the likes of Sharkey, Schmeling, and Baer IMO.

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 02:18 PM

So even though joe frazier was champ and made more title defences, tunney is there because of his potential. He belongs on a light heavyweight list, just like ezzard, nuff said.

so going by your logic rocky marciano and dempsey should be on a light heavy list as they weighed only a few pounds more than tunney

hemichromis

01-24-2007, 02:19 PM

My top 10 is based on how good they are and how long of a title reign they had. I dont get why some people make frazier, holy and tyson as borderline and yet sonny liston is automatically top 10. Liston was champ for 15 minutes, his big wins are cleveland willams and floyd patterson, its not like his resume is incredible. This is my top 10 based on accomplishments and how good they are.

1.Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Joe Frazier
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike Tyson

Dempsey beat willard, firpo and sharkey. Yeah what a great resume for top 5. His best wins are gibbons and carpentier, two guys that are the same size as joe calzaghe.

that list is close to mine actually you are one of very few people who recognise hopw good larry holmes was.
and i do agree that holyfield and definately frazier should both be in the top ten frazier for the reasons i've mentioned. Holyfield because he was a 4 time champion he had amazing heart and a great chin (making up for his lack of power) he was quick when young and very strong when older he fought the best of his time. he beat tyson twice (admittidly not at his best) na dgave lennox lewis 2 great fights. its a fallacy not to include evander holyfield in the top ten, almost as bad as not including dempsey!!

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 02:20 PM

so going by your logic rocky marciano and dempsey should be on a light heavy list as they weighed only a few pounds more than tunney

No becuase most of tunney's fights were actually at Light Heavyweight.

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 02:20 PM

Frazier's just outside of my Top 10 and Tunney's just inside. I love Joe Frazier and it bugged me taking him out of the top 10 almost as much as having Ali in at #2 for a while did. So, who knows, Joe might make a comeback. Still, Tunney's ability cannot be denied and if he'd not retired, it would have been proven against the likes of Sharkey, Schmeling, and Baer IMO.

yeah but sharkey, schmeling and baer are bums...so sayeth the pimp

hemichromis

01-24-2007, 02:21 PM

i liked frazier..i loved his swarming style BUT apart from ali and foreman who did he really fight ?...a blown up light heavy in foster...ellis and quarry who were only average imo and a handfull of non entities ( i cant even think of their names )....i always rated holyfield even back when he was a cruiser

your right ellis bonavena and quarry they can hardly hold a candle up to 'two ton' galento now can they?!

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 02:22 PM

yeah but sharkey, schmeling and baer are bums...so sayeth the pimp

Sharkey isnt very good, the other two are decent.

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 02:22 PM

your right ellis bonavena and quarry they can hardly hold a candle up to 'two ton' galento now can they?!

two ton tony was very underated :)

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 02:23 PM

Sharkey isnt very good, the other two are decent.

decent..thats very kind of you pimp

SABBATH

01-24-2007, 02:25 PM

two ton tony was very underated :)He was also very overweight.

hemichromis

01-24-2007, 02:25 PM

He just doesnt deserve to be in the top 10, neither does jack johnson. All the other guys in the top 10 beat better comp and before u start an argument on tyson fighting weak comp, let me put it in this way.

Michael spinks> gibbons and carpentier
38 year old larry holmes> willard and firpo
Tony Tucker and Trevor Berbick> brennan and miske

your not saying louis shouldn't be in the tp ten are you?:

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 02:26 PM

decent..thats very kind of you pimp

Mac schmeling had a timeframe in which he was good, baer was good but its not like he's one of the best ever. Jack sharkey was wasted potential, he turned into a big disapointment.

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 02:27 PM

your not saying louis shouldn't be in the tp ten are you?:

I was saying dempsey shouldnt, everyone in my top 10 is better than jack dempsey.

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 02:28 PM

your right ellis bonavena and quarry they can hardly hold a candle up to 'two ton' galento now can they?!

my point was that as much as i like frazier his wins were against mediocre opposition ( im sorry but i rate ellis and bonavena as mediocre ) and a 3 + year rusty ali...i actually dont know why im arguing this as i always have frazier in my top 10...just not as high as dempsey or marciano

hemichromis

01-24-2007, 02:29 PM

two ton tony was very underated :)

i agree he was quick for his size and had a nice left hook even if it was amatuerish. but he really is nowhere near as good as quarry or bonavena

hemichromis

01-24-2007, 02:31 PM

my point was that as much as i like frazier his wins were against mediocre opposition ( im sorry but i rate ellis and bonavena as mediocre ) and a 3 + year rusty ali...i actually dont know why im arguing this as i always have frazier in my top 10...just not as high as dempsey or marciano

the way i see it frazier has a good chance of beating a prime ali or any boxer actually. but any good big slugger would be able to overcome him quite easily
i have him around 7th just behind liston i believe

hemichromis

01-24-2007, 02:33 PM

I was saying dempsey shouldnt, everyone in my top 10 is better than jack dempsey.

then i disagree almost as strongly dempsey is a slightly slower but more powerful tyson he was smaller but a much smarter fighter with aggression similar to tyson. he could give any of your top ten a very good fight and should be in the top ten IME however if you have him at 11 i'll forgive you ;)

joelouisbarrow

01-24-2007, 02:34 PM

my top ten is..
1..joe louis
2..muhammad ali
3..rocky marciano
4..jack dempsey
5..mike tyson
6..evander holyfield
7..jack johnson
8..sonny liston
9..joe frazier
10..larry holmes

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 02:34 PM

then i disagree almost as strongly dempsey is a slightly slower but more powerful tyson he was smaller but a much smarter fighter with aggression similar to tyson. he could give any of your top ten a very good fight and should be in the top ten IME however if you have him at 11 i'll forgive you ;)

11. dempsey
12. bowe
13. johnson
14. patterson
15. schmeling/walcott

Dempsey 1919

01-24-2007, 03:01 PM

Some very good discussion here.:)

By the way, this is my top ten...

1) M. Ali
2) S. Liston
3) G. Foreman
4) M. Tyson
5) J. Louis
6) L. Holmes
7) J. Frazier
8) J. Johnson
9) J. Dempsey
10) L. Lewis

and 20...

11. E. Holyfield
12. R. Bowe
13. R. Marciano
14. F. Patterson
15. E. Charles
16. G. Tunney
17. K. Norton
18. J. J. Walcott
19. J. Jeffries
20. S. Langford

KidDynamite86

01-24-2007, 03:18 PM

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 03:26 PM

Actually, Foreman isn't in my top 10 anymore Yogi.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Joe Frazier
6. Sonny Liston
7. Jack Johnson
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Larry Holmes
10. Mike Tyson

You allowed the guy to influence you, thats pretty weak man. Foreman would have crushed dempsey and marciano, they are tailor made to lose to him. Well, expect k-dogg to make some bull**** reply as to how they can beat him.

Joe Frazier can never beat foreman, all he can do is bob and weave his way into foreman's reach and get smoked.

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 03:29 PM

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 03:35 PM

Actually, I feel their styles would play into George's hands. Anything's possible; but I feel it's highly unlikely either would last 6 rounds with Foreman. Styles do make fights, after all.

wow, we agree with each other, thats a first. Max baer lost most of his big fights, he really shouldnt be mentioned as a guy that can beat foreman. Maybe a 45 year old foreman, but the one that was destyoring everyone in the 70's, nope.

Foreman would beat tyson too, he cant adapt to slick boxing, tyson relies on moving forward and getting inside. Yeah tyson, just come into george's reach the same way frazier did and get smoked.

Larry Holmes on the hand, would turn george's face into hamburger meat.

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 03:41 PM

wow, we agree with each other, thats a first. Max baer lost most of his big fights, he really shouldnt be mentioned as a guy that can beat foreman. Maybe a 45 year old foreman, but the one that was destyoring everyone in the 70's, nope.

Foreman would beat tyson too, he cant adapt to slick boxing, tyson relies on moving forward and getting inside. Yeah tyson, just come into george's reach the same way frazier did and get smoked.

Larry Holmes on the hand, would turn george's face into hamburger meat.

After SABBATH's enlightening post about Baer's attitude before the Louis fight, I am more along the line of thinking that he'd choke in the face of Foreman's power and presence. If he found Joe Louis intimidating, prime Foreman very well could have caused him to have a fecal discharge. Because of Baer's power and George's less than impressive defensive capabilities, he does have a shot; but, boxing being mental, George would surely have the edge.

I agree with you on Tyson and Holmes. Even win I posted earlier I stressed that for Tyson to beat Foreman, it would be an uphill battle. Prime Mike could have beaten a prime Foreman; but in all honesty, I wouldn't bet on such a proposistion. Tyson's height wouldn't have helped him. I feel he would have lasted longer than Frazier; but George eventually gets him IMHO.

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 03:44 PM

There is a reason as to why foreman didnt want to fight holmes. He knows that he is larry's *****.

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 03:50 PM

There is a reason as to why foreman didnt want to fight holmes. He knows that he is larry's *****.

lol!! Well, I wouldn't have put it like that; but George is no dummy, no. He never has been, which, I think, is why the Jerry Quarry fight never materialized back in 1974. Quarry had just beaten both Lyle and Shavers and a challenge to Foreman would have been big money; but George never took it. Jerry's style was such that it would have given Foreman a formidable challenge because Quarry had a very good chin as well.

And, of course, all through his march to the championship in his second incarnation, he never fought a top contender. He ended up beating a washed up Gerry Cooney. No, George was no dummy.

SABBATH

01-24-2007, 03:53 PM

You allowed the guy to influence you, thats pretty weak man. Foreman would have crushed dempsey and marciano, they are tailor made to lose to him. Well, expect k-dogg to make some bull**** reply as to how they can beat him.

Joe Frazier can never beat foreman, all he can do is bob and weave his way into foreman's reach and get smoked.

Lets see off the top of my head.

Olympic Gold Medal heavyweight Champion.

Two time undisputed (linear heavyweight champion).

Won titles 21 years apart.

One of the youngest men at 24 years of age to win the title.

Oldest man at 45 years to ever win the heavyweight championship.

One of only two men to stop ATG heavyweight champion Joe Frazier (twice) and one of only three men to floor Frazier, doing it 8 times.

76-5 with 69 KO's giving him the second highest KO % of any linear heavyweight champion despite half of his career being fought after a 10 year layoff.

Scored KO's over top 10 contenders from 4 seperate decades.

Stopped only once and floored by only three men in 81 professional fights.

A career spanning four decades and was still competing with top 10 heavyweights a month shy of his 49th birthday.

Called the strongest man they ever fought by both ATG heavyweight champions Muhammad Ali and Evander Holyfield.

Nah...........he shouldn't be on the list.

KidDynamite86

01-24-2007, 03:58 PM

I'm not doing the list based on who can beat who. Foreman can beat Dempsey, Frazier, Marciano, Tyson...or atleast has a better chance than losing, but he's not a better fighter. Someone said earlier in the thread, that styles make fights...and even though Foreman could beat Frazier, Frazier is better skilled and packaged. He was just no good for Foreman stylistically.

SABBATH

01-24-2007, 04:12 PM

lol!! Well, I wouldn't have put it like that; but George is no dummy, no. He never has been, which, I think, is why the Jerry Quarry fight never materialized back in 1974. Quarry had just beaten both Lyle and Shavers and a challenge to Foreman would have been big money; but George never took it. Jerry's style was such that it would have given Foreman a formidable challenge because Quarry had a very good chin as well.The timeline of both fighter's careers don't support the notion that Foreman ducked Quarry.

Quarry was considered out of the title picture until he defeated Shavers in late 1973. Foreman was already set to defend against Norton (who had been the #1 contender between March-Sept 1973). After Foreman-Norton, Ali was the #1 contender and Don King immediately went to work on Ali-Foreman.

In the meantime Teddy Brenner was trying to put together a third Ali-Quarry fight to be fought at MSG. It wasn't believed at the time that King could raise the 10 million he was promising for Ali and Foreman to split.

Brenner was promising Ali much less than the $5 million split King was promising Ali. In any event Ali was the #1 contender and had been for the better part of 4 years so with a 5 million dollar purse and Ali being the mandatory challenger Foreman he took the right fight.

Quarry in the meantime fought Joe Frazier and was stopped.

I have an old boxing magazine from 1974 which came out just after Foreman-Norton but before Frazier-Quarry II. Quarry was being spoken of as Foreman's next title opponent after Ali. Quarry even wrote an article predicting a 5th round KO for Foreman.

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 04:16 PM

The timeline of both fighter's careers don't support the notion that Foreman ducked Quarry.

Quarry was considered out of the title picture until he defeated Shavers in late 1973. Foreman was already set to defend against Norton (who had been the #1 contender between March-Sept 1973). After Foreman-Norton, Ali was the #1 contender and Don King immediately went to work on Ali-Foreman.

In the meantime Teddy Brenner was trying to put together a third Ali-Quarry fight to be fought at MSG. It wasn't believed at the time that King could raise the 10 million he was promising for Ali and Foreman to split.

Brenner was promising Ali much less than the $5 million split King was promising Ali. In any event Ali was the #1 contender and had been for the better part of 4 years so with a 5 million dollar purse and Ali being the mandatory challenger Foreman he took the right fight.

Quarry in the meantime fought Joe Frazier and was stopped.

I have an old boxing magazine from 1974 which came out just after Foreman-Norton but before Frazier-Quarry II. Quarry was being spoken of as Foreman's next title opponent after Ali. Quarry even wrote an article predicting a 5th round KO for Foreman.

:?!:
You're a virtual cornacopia of knowledge, do you know that?!

Oh well, I can't remember where I read that Quarry was in line and that George essentially took the 5 million...and who wouldn't....for what he thought would be an easier fight.

Oh well, thank again, as always, for the insight. :biggthump

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 04:20 PM

SABBATH

01-24-2007, 04:34 PM

Sabbath knows his boxing, props to him. Yo, do you think jermain taylor will end up being top 5 middleweight of all times, i seriously think this guy is a pot of gold. He will surpass b-hop, mark my words!Right now no. He has good tools but two narrow wins over the faded B-Hop and a disputed decision over Winky Wright don't have me sold on him at all. If he learns from those fights and improves he could have a decent reign. I think it's way too early to tell.

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 04:34 PM

Sabbath knows his boxing, props to him. Yo, do you think jermain taylor will end up being top 5 middleweight of all times, i seriously think this guy is a pot of gold. He will surpass b-hop, mark my words!

If you're talking to me, I think he has the potential; but he also has a ways to go and I don't know if he can keep making the weight long enough to do it.

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 04:41 PM

Well after he beats mora, he will most likely fight the winner of miranda/green. He's beat guys like marquez, ouma and joppy, they arent great but they are much better than hakkar and eastman. I still dont forgive hopkins for fighting extremely weak comp after he beat trinidad. However, he did leap into immortality when he knocked out the blown up de la hoya.

Kid Achilles

01-24-2007, 04:47 PM

Notable contenders/ex-champions of the 1910s abd 1920s who Dempsey beat:

Jess Willard
Jack Sharky
Georges Carpentier
Tommy Gibbons
Bill Brennan
Luis Firpo
Fred Fulton
Carl Morris
Battling Levinski
Billy Miske
Gunboat Smith
Fireman Flynn

Many of these contenders and champions were destroyed by knockout, often within a handful of rounds, by the Mauler. I'll admit Dempsey's opposition does not stack up to a Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali but it's no worse than Foreman's or Marciano's IMO. If you consider the quality of these wins (weighing knockouts victories over questionable decisions and draws), Dempsey must be considered a top ten heavyweight.

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 04:50 PM

KidDynamite86

01-24-2007, 05:09 PM

Speaking of Dempsey...the ring that's in my gym is the same ring that Dempsey-Carpentier took place in.

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 06:07 PM

damn thats his resume, it makes marciano's look like gold. He beat gunboat and a firefighter, watch out larry holmes.

Do you really expect fighters to make their living off of just fighting at the turn of the century? I'll tell you this much, I'd put my money on a Fireman and a Gunboat and a Sailor (Tom Sharkey...a few years before) before I'd put it on a "Boxing Banker" or a "Doctor" or a "Surgeon" or maybe even some guy who's "Smokin'"

....they were damn good fighters of their time. Get over the nickname stuff....it's silly.

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 06:17 PM

I know who those guys are, dont try and avoid the truth, its a weak ass resume. You criticize holyfield and others, just look at his, it sucks. Sabbath and I see the same thing when we make our top 10 lists, you dont.

SABBATH

01-24-2007, 06:20 PM

brownpimp88

01-24-2007, 06:27 PM

out of those guys on dempsey's list, only 2 were heavyweight champs. 3 of them are the size of joe calzaghe, and the rest were fringe contenders, i know enough about each person, holyfield has a better resume and he would have outboxed dempsey to a decision with relative ease.

K-DOGG

01-24-2007, 06:31 PM

Gotta face it Dogg. I'm the voice of the new generation. ;)

lol!!! Yeah; but it doesn't mean I'm going to my dusty old corner quietly. :lol1:

SABBATH

01-24-2007, 06:43 PM

lol!!! Yeah; but it doesn't mean I'm going to my dusty old corner quietly. :lol1:So long. I won't forget my roots old timer. I'll still send you Christmas greetings.:wave:

Mike Tyson77

01-24-2007, 06:51 PM

Dempsey 1919

01-24-2007, 07:13 PM

Jack Johnson is without a dought a top 10 P4P.

He cleaned out the divison on his way to the title and was champ for 6 years.

Not to mention he was champ in 1908......and African American. He had to put up with more crap than any other champ in the history of the sport.

:fing02:...

phallus

01-24-2007, 07:19 PM

hemichromis

01-25-2007, 01:10 AM

Yogi

01-25-2007, 03:47 PM

:?!:
You're a virtual cornacopia of knowledge, do you know that?!

Oh well, I can't remember where I read that Quarry was in line and that George essentially took the 5 million...and who wouldn't....for what he thought would be an easier fight.

Oh well, thank again, as always, for the insight. :biggthump

Boooo @ K-Dogg for conceding to Sabbath so easily, and to do so because of information posted that was both inaccurate at times and incomplete.

K-DOGG

01-25-2007, 04:21 PM

Boooo @ K-Dogg for conceding to Sabbath so easily, and to do so because of information posted that was both inaccurate at times and incomplete.

:dunno: Well, what am I supposed to do when I don't have any readily available contradictory documents on hand?

Where have you been?! I needed you Yogi....I am merely an apprentice when it comes to little known specifics. "I rememember and I know otherwise" doesn't combat well against documentation.

I'll go thrash myself now. :puppy_dog

SABBATH

01-25-2007, 04:43 PM

:dunno: Well, what am I supposed to do when I don't have any readily available contradictory documents on hand?

Where have you been?! I needed you Yogi....I am merely an apprentice when it comes to little known specifics. "I rememember and I know otherwise" doesn't combat well against documentation.

I'll go thrash myself now. :puppy_dogPay no attention to the man behind the screen.-The Wizard of Oz

SABBATH

01-25-2007, 05:02 PM

Boooo @ K-Dogg for conceding to Sabbath so easily, and to do so because of information posted that was both inaccurate at times and incomplete.If you are in any way referring to the a proposed Foreman vs. Quarry heavyweight title bout that was tentatively scheduled for June 20, 1974, at Madison Square Garden, it was never was brought to contract and therefore I fail to see the alleged 'ducking' of Quarry by Foreman unless you would like me to quote George Foreman, "Had he punched with Ellis and boxed Frazier, he would have been champion. When I was heavyweight champion of the world, I purposely dodged him."

Sure George whatever.

Yogi

01-25-2007, 05:06 PM

:dunno: Well, what am I supposed to do when I don't have any readily available contradictory documents on hand?

Ok, here's what you could do, my friend;

Go into the bathroom, stare into the mirror, turn off the light, and repeat after me...

"Foreman ducked Quarry"

"Foreman ducked Quarry"

"Foreman ducked Quarry"

etc., etc., etc...Say that about 20, 25 times in total, or however many times you may need until it's once again embedded inside of you and to the point where even a powerful "charm human" spell from the hands of that evil wizard Sabbath would prove very unsuccessful.

Yogi

01-25-2007, 05:08 PM

If you are in any way referring to the a proposed Foreman vs. Quarry heavyweight title bout that was tentatively scheduled for June 20, 1974, at Madison Square Garden

Nope, I wasn't.

K-DOGG

01-25-2007, 05:13 PM

Ok, here's what you could do, my friend;

Go into the bathroom, stare into the mirror, turn off the light, and repeat after me...

"Foreman ducked Quarry"

"Foreman ducked Quarry"

"Foreman ducked Quarry"

etc., etc., etc...Say that about 20, 25 times in total, or however many times you may need until it's once again embedded inside of you and to the point where even a powerful "charm human" spell from the hands of that evil wizard Sabbath would prove very unsuccessful.

*goes into bathroom, stares into mirror*

"Foreman Ducked Quarry, Foreman Ducked Quarry, Foreman Ducked Quarry, etc."

....SEES GHOST OF JERRY QUARRY!!!! :eek:

...*and notes to self that he needs a shave*

Yogi

01-25-2007, 05:15 PM

That's the spirit!

Did Foreman really duck Quarry, though?

K-DOGG

01-25-2007, 05:19 PM

That's the spirit!

Did Foreman really duck Quarry, though?

YES!!!!!!!!

:)

Yogi

01-25-2007, 05:21 PM

YES!!!!!!!!

:)

Excellant!

*hefty claps*

Kid Achilles

01-25-2007, 07:38 PM

Foreman not ducking Quarry is almost as dumb as Greedo shooting first.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Polls/Pictures/Poll011-Greedo.jpg

SABBATH

01-25-2007, 08:15 PM

Foreman not ducking Quarry is almost as dumb as Greedo shooting first.Foreman would have annihilated Quarry.

Kid Achilles

01-25-2007, 08:32 PM

Jerry Quarry is one of the best Heavyweights of all times. He out boxed Floyd Patterson out punched Earnie Shavers. He was flashy, good looking; but never became champion. Quarry boxed Jimmie Ellis and fought toe to toe Joe Frazier; on these occasions if he had only switched tactics he could have been Heavyweight Champion of the World. When I became Heavyweight Champion of the World I dodged him, purposely.

From Foreman's own website.

SABBATH

01-25-2007, 08:42 PM

From Foreman's own website.If you're not used to Foreman heaping overly maudlin praise on fighters then you haven't been watching HBO for the last decade.

If I was to believe everything Foreman has said over the years, he was drugged against Ali, he purposely didn't want to knockout Tommy Morrison, he was terrified of Joe Frazier (yeah looked real scared smashing Frazier to the canvas 6 times), he carried Jimmy Young so the network could get their commercials in..... I might as well still put a tooth under my pillow and leave out milk and cookies every December 25th.

Foreman won the title from Frazier in early 1973. At the end of 1972 Quarry wasn't even ranked in the top 10. Foreman then proceeded to defend against Norton (who was #1 from March-Sept 73) and sign for Ali who had been the #1 contender for the better part of four years. Ali-Frazier II in January 1974 was a heavyweight elimination fight with the winner to fight Foreman.

If signing to fight Muhammad Ali the mandatory #1 challenger by defeating Frazier (Foreman had yet to make a mandatory) for a then unheard of $5 million dollars instead of substantially less money against a 4th rated fighter who hadn't even been in the top 10 the previous year constitutes ducking, then you're stretching the realm of believabilty.

Kid Achilles

01-25-2007, 09:06 PM

I refuse your reality and substitute it with my own.

Dempsey 1919

01-25-2007, 09:50 PM

If you're not used to Foreman heaping overly maudlin praise on fighters then you haven't been watching HBO for the last decade.

If I was to believe everything Foreman has said over the years, he was drugged against Ali, he purposely didn't want to knockout Tommy Morrison, he was terrified of Joe Frazier (yeah looked real scared smashing Frazier to the canvas 6 times), he carried Jimmy Young so the network could get their commercials in..... I might as well still put a tooth under my pillow and leave out milk and cookies every December 25th.

Foreman won the title from Frazier in early 1973. At the end of 1972 Quarry wasn't even ranked in the top 10. Foreman then proceeded to defend against Norton (who was #1 from March-Sept 73) and sign for Ali who had been the #1 contender for the better part of four years. Ali-Frazier II in January 1974 was a heavyweight elimination fight with the winner to fight Foreman.

If signing to fight Muhammad Ali the mandatory #1 challenger by defeating Frazier (Foreman had yet to make a mandatory) for a then unheard of $5 million dollars instead of substantially less money against a 4th rated fighter who hadn't even been in the top 10 the previous year constitutes ducking, then you're stretching the realm of believabilty.

I was thinking the same thing. When Quarry was top-rated, Foreman was just started out and was not experienced enough to even think about fighting Quarry. Then when Foreman was highly-renked himself, Quarry was on the slides, and did not deserve a crack at Foreman.

Foreman ducking Quarry is just speculation.

Yogi

01-25-2007, 10:28 PM

There were plenty of offers and talk about matching Foreman & Quarry up, both when Foreman was champion (and not just after Quarry beat Shavers either, as the offers were presented to Foreman right after Quarry defeated Lyle and continued), and previous to that when both were highly rated, top five contenders (from the fall of 1970 on...each and every year starting then promoters tried matching them up, whether it be MSG on a few occasions, Don Fraser, London matchmakers, etc.).

Dempsey 1919

01-25-2007, 11:40 PM

Hydro

01-26-2007, 11:28 AM

If I was to believe everything Foreman has said over the years, he was drugged against Ali, he purposely didn't want to knockout Tommy Morrison, he was terrified of Joe Frazier (yeah looked real scared smashing Frazier to the canvas 6 times), he carried Jimmy Young so the network could get their commercials in..... I might as well still put a tooth under my pillow and leave out milk and cookies every December 25th.

You left out "I was about to knock out Ali but I was distracted when I saw my friend in the audience cheering for Ali", "No one is the best p4p until they beat James Page", and "Lennox Lewis is the greatest heavyweight of all-time" (a couple months earlier he said Lewis wouldn't have lasted 2 rounds with him if George was in his prime).

I take 99% of what Big George says with a grain of salt.

hemichromis

01-26-2007, 02:33 PM

You left out "I was about to knock out Ali but I was distracted when I saw my friend in the audience cheering for Ali", "No one is the best p4p until they beat James Page", and "Lennox Lewis is the greatest heavyweight of all-time" (a couple months earlier he said Lewis wouldn't have lasted 2 rounds with him if George was in his prime).

I take 99% of what Big George says with a grain of salt.

foreman says some very smart things and somevery dumb things. he is very humble and rates some fighters above him even though he would destroy them in the ring. foremans a good man though

Hydro

01-26-2007, 02:41 PM

foreman says some very smart things and somevery dumb things. he is very humble and rates some fighters above him even though he would destroy them in the ring. foremans a good man though

Foreman is just a strange individual whose statements are all over the place.

He talks about how he finally accepted the ali loss but in his autobiography which came out in the 1990s, he was filled with excuses, including the great one i quoted above.

I take what he says with a big grain of salt, but he's an entertaining guy who does some good things for the community.

To me, he's quite possibly the greatest salesman/pitchman in sports history. Michael Jordan had a carefully constructed image cultivated since he entered the NBA. Foreman, on the other hand, completely re-invented himself, from the scary angry mo-fo in the 70s to the smiling teddy bear. And he didn't have a company like Nike or Phil Knight to help him with the image.

Liaison

01-26-2007, 03:17 PM

George just says different things to please certain audiences. Example: When he said Lewis is the greatest of all time, he said it to a British reporter.

Kid Achilles

01-26-2007, 03:29 PM

Yes, Foreman says some strange things. The confession on his website doesn't prove that Foreman was afraid of Quarry, but it certainly raises an eyebrow and definitely lends ammunition to the Foreman ducking Quarry theory. In fact, this is a theory that will likely never die, like it or not. Why? Because there is a good reason to think he did avoid Quarry. The good reason is that the fight was made several times but it never happened. You can state various reasons for this but Foreman wanting no part of Quarry has to be a possibility, one of the numerous reasons, if you are being truly objective. To say there's no chance that Foreman ducked Quarry, who was so consistently destroying bigger and more powerful men than himself at the time, is just preposterous. It's much harder to prove that Foreman wasn't ducking Quarry than the contrary, because he never fought him and the suspicious that he ducked him will always be there because of this.

Will we ever prove that Foreman ducked Quarry? No, but he didn't fight him either and so the Quarry question will always be there.

SABBATH

01-26-2007, 04:14 PM

The good reason is that the fight was made several times but it never happened. When was the contract made several times or more accurately how do you define "the fight was made several times"?

brownpimp88

01-26-2007, 04:36 PM

They could have fought between 1973-1974 but after norton finished quarry, there was no point. Same thing goes with larry holmes vs ken norton, after cooney and shavers destroyed kenny, there was no point in having the rematch between holmes and norton.

cyberthugpatrol

01-26-2007, 04:42 PM

Iron Mike Tyson

Kid Achilles

01-26-2007, 04:43 PM

Not made as in a contract was signed but refering to the fact that the fight was penciled in for June 20th, 1974, in the event that Quarry beat Frazier. He didn't, and the fight did not happen.

(source: http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0804-quarry.html)

That does not erase the idea that Foreman was ducking Quarry. It is just one example of an instance where the fight was considered but not happen.

It's much more difficult for you to prove without a shadow of a doubt that Foreman didn't duck Quarry than it is to accept that it was a possibility.

He never fought him, and he admitted that he dodged him. That is apparently one less step than you personally need to bring up the Harry Wills issue with Dempsey time and again. At least Dempsey signed his contract to fight Wills and always expressed interest and confidence in his chances with Wills. With Foreman we have no such contract signing. We do have Big George's own words that tell us he was not confident in his ability to beat quarry.

Understand that I'm not trying to prove that Foreman ducked Quarry, but rather that you and other Foreman fans need to at least admit that it is a possbility.

SABBATH

01-26-2007, 06:36 PM

That is apparently one less step than you personally need to bring up the Harry Wills issue with Dempsey time and again. I bring up Dempsey ducking Wills time and time again? I think you're mistaken.

In any event since you brought up Dempsey, Jack Johnson called him out and Dempsey didn't want to fight him so I guess in addition to Jack publicly stating he did not want to fight Sam Langford I can now apply your criteria and add Johnson to the list of fighters Dempsey 'ducked'.

Kid Achilles

01-26-2007, 06:46 PM

My mistake. I think in this case I was attributing posts made by SMASHER to you. You have similar names (two syllables, starting with s, all caps) and include Trailer Park Boys photographs in your sigs. Maybe it was even someone else. Anyway, my point is, you'll have a hard time proving without a doubt that Foreman didn't duck Quarry.

Yogi

01-26-2007, 09:19 PM

Ali also ducked Quarry.

SABBATH

01-26-2007, 09:38 PM

Ali also ducked Quarry.His left hook maybe.

Yogi

01-26-2007, 10:26 PM

His left hook maybe.

Yep, Quarry's left hook. His right hand too...In fact, there wasn't a part of Quarry's anatomy that Ali wasn't scared of when he backed out of that fight for reasons along the lines of, as Brenner put it, Ali being "afraid to lose"...

Hey, that lack of confidence shown on that occasion by Ali might explain why, just before their first fight, he offered the Quarry camp five hundred thousand dollars cash if they would allow him put a horseshoe in his glove.

SABBATH

01-26-2007, 10:32 PM

Yep, Quarry's left hook. His right hand too...In fact, there wasn't a part of Quarry's anatomy that Ali wasn't scared of when he backed out of that fight for reasons along the lines of, as Brenner put it, Ali being "afraid to lose"...

Hey, that lack of confidence shown on that occasion by Ali might explain why, just before their first fight, he offered the Quarry camp five hundred thousand dollars cash if they would allow him put a horseshoe in his glove.
Quarry needed a horeshoe up his ass to beat Ali.

brownpimp88

01-26-2007, 10:33 PM

Yogi

01-26-2007, 10:53 PM

I want to ask you a question. Where do you rank larry holmes among the all time great heavyweights and why.

Oh, I don't know exactly, because I don't keep an all-time list, but probably around the 5th spot, I think.

brownpimp88

01-26-2007, 11:17 PM

He beat 27 guys that were ranked contenders at one point in thier career, most guys are lucky to beat 10. Rocky only beat like 10.

Brockton Lip

01-27-2007, 12:08 AM

He beat 27 guys that were ranked contenders at one point in thier career, most guys are lucky to beat 10. Rocky only beat like 10.

Theres more to boxing than numbers.

Dempsey 1919

01-27-2007, 11:22 PM

Ali also ducked Quarry.

Everybody ducked Quarry.

hemichromis

01-28-2007, 01:36 AM

He beat 27 guys that were ranked contenders at one point in thier career, most guys are lucky to beat 10. Rocky only beat like 10.

yes but he was in a less than stellar era fopr boxing his biggest competition was a- past his prime- norton!

i still have larry ranked way up there though

Dempsey 1919

01-28-2007, 01:44 AM

yes but he was in a less than stellar era fopr boxing his biggest competition was a- past his prime- norton!

i still have larry ranked way up there though

Or Gerry Cooney.

brownpimp88

01-28-2007, 03:14 AM

yes but he was in a less than stellar era fopr boxing his biggest competition was a- past his prime- norton!

i still have larry ranked way up there though

Dude norton was 30 when he first became a somebody. 1973-1978 were the best years of ken's career. Larry will always be Ali's #1 student.

Yaman

04-26-2007, 07:07 PM

Dempsey 1919

04-26-2007, 07:16 PM

RockyMarcianofan00

04-26-2007, 07:28 PM

anybody watching the beyond the glory: George Foreman special on MSG