I've thought about it considerably, and I might have to place Louis as the best heavyweight ever. It's a hard decision, because boxing has changed so much since then and the way he went about the title was a little tricky. He had 25 defenses of his title, but the majority of them were Bum of the Month types. Johnny Paycheck, Buddy Baer and the rest of Joe Blow and the Nobody Crew. The best guys he beat as champion were Billy Conn and the rematch with Max Schmelling. Schmelling of course blew him out in 12 in their first fight.

What gives Louis considerable clout with the rankings I'd say is his punching power; him and Sonny Liston are my top picks with regards to having the hammer at heavyweight. The punches that Louis landed to knock out Jimmy Braddock and Max Schmeling were whoppers, right hands with everything turned on it and punched right through them.

What I also like about Louis is that he was smart as well as tough. Sure, he had to climb off the canvas almost as much as Floyd Patterson, but he did it and came back to win a lot. He had that perfect flaw that was an integral part of the Felix Trinidad appeal, he was human yet seemed to transcend that role as a man in the ring.

Of course, with the American public still reeling from the in-your-face bravado of Jack Johnson, Joe Louis' image had to be tailored to make him acceptable to the segregated times that he lived in. Listed among Louis' "bad habits" were an addiction to chicken and a voracious appetite for chewing bubble gum. Later it would turn out that he also was just as voracious with women and in later years would struggle with cocaine and several other drugs.

During WWII, when I believe Franklin Roosevelt squeezed his muscle and said "We need more muscles like these for the effort", he became the first beloved black man in pop culture for embodying American values. As Jimmy Cannon stated, "Joe Louis is a credit to his race, the human race."

In the modern era of primadonna sports stars, Joe Louis can be appreciated for the talent and class that he intertwined simultaneously. One of the many black eyes that America carries is the way that the IRS harrassed Joe Louis later in his life, subjecting him to such farces as his ill-fated comeback against Rocky Marciano and his sojourn into the world of professional wrestling.

In the end, Louis was left in a somewhat less than majestic state, as a greeter for a Las Vegas casino. He also suffered from bouts of delusions as a result of his issues with drugs. He was given a hero's burial in Arlington National Cemetary when he died in 1981, an ending befitting the great character that he was. Athis funeral, Muhammad Ali whispered into Joe Louis Barrow Jr.'s ear "Your father truly was the greatest."

I've thought about it considerably, and I might have to place Louis as the best heavyweight ever. It's a hard decision, because boxing has changed so much since then and the way he went about the title was a little tricky. He had 25 defenses of his title, but the majority of them were Bum of the Month types. Johnny Paycheck, Buddy Baer and the rest of Joe Blow and the Nobody Crew. The best guys he beat as champion were Billy Conn and the rematch with Max Schmelling. Schmelling of course blew him out in 12 in their first fight.

What gives Louis considerable clout with the rankings I'd say is his punching power; him and Sonny Liston are my top picks with regards to having the hammer at heavyweight. The punches that Louis landed to knock out Jimmy Braddock and Max Schmeling were whoppers, right hands with everything turned on it and punched right through them.

What I also like about Louis is that he was smart as well as tough. Sure, he had to climb off the canvas almost as much as Floyd Patterson, but he did it and came back to win a lot. He had that perfect flaw that was an integral part of the Felix Trinidad appeal, he was human yet seemed to transcend that role as a man in the ring.

Of course, with the American public still reeling from the in-your-face bravado of Jack Johnson, Joe Louis' image had to be tailored to make him acceptable to the segregated times that he lived in. Listed among Louis' "bad habits" were an addiction to chicken and a voracious appetite for chewing bubble gum. Later it would turn out that he also was just as voracious with women and in later years would struggle with cocaine and several other drugs.

During WWII, when I believe Franklin Roosevelt squeezed his muscle and said "We need more muscles like these for the effort", he became the first beloved black man in pop culture for embodying American values. As Jimmy Cannon stated, "Joe Louis is a credit to his race, the human race."

In the modern era of primadonna sports stars, Joe Louis can be appreciated for the talent and class that he intertwined simultaneously. One of the many black eyes that America carries is the way that the IRS harrassed Joe Louis later in his life, subjecting him to such farces as his ill-fated comeback against Rocky Marciano and his sojourn into the world of professional wrestling.

In the end, Louis was left in a somewhat less than majestic state, as a greeter for a Las Vegas casino. He also suffered from bouts of delusions as a result of his issues with drugs. He was given a hero's burial in Arlington National Cemetary when he died in 1981, an ending befitting the great character that he was. Athis funeral, Muhammad Ali whispered into Joe Louis Barrow Jr.'s ear "Your father truly was the greatest."
Good Post, Althought I didn't learn anything from it, I do agree with it.

I've thought about it considerably, and I might have to place Louis as the best heavyweight ever. It's a hard decision, because boxing has changed so much since then and the way he went about the title was a little tricky. He had 25 defenses of his title, but the majority of them were Bum of the Month types. Johnny Paycheck, Buddy Baer and the rest of Joe Blow and the Nobody Crew. The best guys he beat as champion were Billy Conn and the rematch with Max Schmelling. Schmelling of course blew him out in 12 in their first fight.

What gives Louis considerable clout with the rankings I'd say is his punching power; him and Sonny Liston are my top picks with regards to having the hammer at heavyweight. The punches that Louis landed to knock out Jimmy Braddock and Max Schmeling were whoppers, right hands with everything turned on it and punched right through them.

What I also like about Louis is that he was smart as well as tough. Sure, he had to climb off the canvas almost as much as Floyd Patterson, but he did it and came back to win a lot. He had that perfect flaw that was an integral part of the Felix Trinidad appeal, he was human yet seemed to transcend that role as a man in the ring.

Of course, with the American public still reeling from the in-your-face bravado of Jack Johnson, Joe Louis' image had to be tailored to make him acceptable to the segregated times that he lived in. Listed among Louis' "bad habits" were an addiction to chicken and a voracious appetite for chewing bubble gum. Later it would turn out that he also was just as voracious with women and in later years would struggle with cocaine and several other drugs.

During WWII, when I believe Franklin Roosevelt squeezed his muscle and said "We need more muscles like these for the effort", he became the first beloved black man in pop culture for embodying American values. As Jimmy Cannon stated, "Joe Louis is a credit to his race, the human race."

In the modern era of primadonna sports stars, Joe Louis can be appreciated for the talent and class that he intertwined simultaneously. One of the many black eyes that America carries is the way that the IRS harrassed Joe Louis later in his life, subjecting him to such farces as his ill-fated comeback against Rocky Marciano and his sojourn into the world of professional wrestling.

In the end, Louis was left in a somewhat less than majestic state, as a greeter for a Las Vegas casino. He also suffered from bouts of delusions as a result of his issues with drugs. He was given a hero's burial in Arlington National Cemetary when he died in 1981, an ending befitting the great character that he was. Athis funeral, Muhammad Ali whispered into Joe Louis Barrow Jr.'s ear "Your father truly was the greatest."

Actually, Louis' best win was Walcott, not Schmeling.

Actually, Louis' best win was Walcott, not Schmeling.

The Walcott decision was total bull****. I don't give credit on the merits of inept judging. And about the double thread, mistakes happen and we all got to learn to deal with them.

The Walcott decision was total bull****. I don't give credit on the merits of inept judging. And about the double thread, mistakes happen and we all got to learn to deal with them.
Isn't there a way to delete a thread( I really don't know cause I just started like yesterday)?

Isn't there a way to delete a thread( I really don't know cause I just started like yesterday)?

Nah, only the mod can. I wish I could delete the thread, it's a nuisance.

Nah, only the mod can. I wish I could delete the thread, it's a nuisance.
Ah that sucks, yea sometimes the net goes crazy when your trying to post something,...like a comment on myspace and you post 3 of the same comments,...kind of stupid but least on myspace you can delete them.

Ah that sucks, yea sometimes the net goes crazy when your trying to post something,...like a comment on myspace and you post 3 of the same comments,...kind of stupid but least on myspace you can delete them.

Yeah, you got Myspace? Add me, it's in my sig. What are your thoughts on Joe Louis?

Yeah, you got Myspace? Add me, it's in my sig. What are your thoughts on Joe Louis?
I rate Joe as number one Heavy of all time, and number six pound for pound. He was a great man, with a great heart. Gave money away like it was candy to poor people, and his country. A great American, Great Hero, and a Legendary human being. We need more people like Joe Louis in the world today.

I rate Joe as number one Heavy of all time, and number six pound for pound. He was a great man, with a great heart. Gave money away like it was candy to poor people, and his country. A great American, Great Hero, and a Legendary human being. We need more people like Joe Louis in the world today.

Joe Louis to me was the greatest heavyweight who ever lived, but I don't throw him in the intrinsic category that is occuppied by such fighters as Muhammad Ali and Aaron Pryor for one reason, I couldn't identify with Joe Louis. I'm not a good enough person to understand why he would support his country when he was fighting for a freedom that he as a black man in segregated times could not enjoy. Even when the IRS unjustly stalked him, he made it his duty to pay back every dime regardless of what he had to do. I'm not that kind of superior character that could do something like that. Joe Louis is too great a person to be my hero.

Joe Louis to me was the greatest heavyweight who ever lived, but I don't throw him in the intrinsic category that is occuppied by such fighters as Muhammad Ali and Aaron Pryor for one reason, I couldn't identify with Joe Louis. I'm not a good enough person to understand why he would support his country when he was fighting for a freedom that he as a black man in segregated times could not enjoy. Even when the IRS unjustly stalked him, he made it his duty to pay back every dime regardless of what he had to do. I'm not that kind of superior character that could do something like that. Joe Louis is too great a person to be my hero.
Well said, and I agree.

P.s working on that myspace add...net is being buggy (hehe irony)

Well said, and I agree.

P.s working on that myspace add...net is being buggy (hehe irony)

I got you now, it's cool.

If your interested you should check out the tournament I've been working on myspace! Took alot of work, the first round is well over 110 pages on word! I am writing the finals now!

If your interested you should check out the tournament I've been working on myspace! Took alot of work, the first round is well over 110 pages on word! I am writing the finals now!

What tournament is that?

What tournament is that?
Its like 56 of the greatest heavyweights of all time. I have this computer program that calulates the fights. I write the interviews, and ect. Then post the fights on the blog. After this I really want to write a pound for pound tournament! Not use the program just type out the fights.

Its like 56 of the greatest heavyweights of all time. I have this computer program that calulates the fights. I write the interviews, and ect. Then post the fights on the blog. After this I really want to write a pound for pound tournament! Not use the program just type out the fights.

That sounds like some intense stuff. Pretty admirable ****, good luck with it.

Does anybody know how many times Louis had been knocked down in his career?

That sounds like some intense stuff. Pretty admirable ****, good luck with it.
Thanks Man I really do love the sport and its history some real life heros came from the sport, and I simply love wriiting about them, and there amazing talents. Main reason I jioned this forums was because alot of my friends don't know alot of boxing so I never could carry a intelligent convo with them.

Does anybody know how many times Louis had been knocked down in his career?
Hmmm 3 or 4 but I am not sure.

Thanks Man I really do love the sport and its history some real life heros came from the sport, and I simply love wriiting about them, and there amazing talents. Main reason I jioned this forums was because alot of my friends don't know alot of boxing so I never could carry a intelligent convo with them.

Yeah, thats why I became a boxing writer. I needed an outlet for all of the things I wanted to talk about in the sport. Boxing is my ****, it's my drug.

I think Louis was down many more times than 3 or 4. I think it might have been 10 or something like that.

Yeah, thats why I became a boxing writer. I needed an outlet for all of the things I wanted to talk about in the sport. Boxing is my ****, it's my drug.

I think Louis was down many more times than 3 or 4. I think it might have been 10 or something like that.
I went to Boxrec, and counted 16 times he was knocked down. 7 in his amatuer. I was way off but I wasn't sure at all. Least I know now!

Does anybody know how many times Louis had been knocked down in his career?

Schmeling, Baer, Braddock, Galento, Walcott (2x), Marciano (2x)

Schmeling, Baer, Braddock, Galento, Walcott (2x), Marciano (2x)
According to Boxrec he had more than that...

According to Boxrec he had more than that...

For real, homey seemed to go down a whole lot. Thanks alot for the answers my dudes.

For real, homey seemed to go down a whole lot. Thanks alot for the answers my dudes.
No problem, I was curious myself to be honest.

The Walcott decision was total bull****. I don't give credit on the merits of inept judging. And about the double thread, mistakes happen and we all got to learn to deal with them.

I'm talking about the second fight when he knocked Walcott out.

Does anybody know how many times Louis had been knocked down in his career?

Ten times.

1936

Max Schmeling 2x - Fourth round and Twelvth round.

1937

James Braddock - First round

1939

Tony Galento - Third round

1941

Buddy Baer - First Round

1947

Jersey Joe Walcott 2x - First round and Fourth round

1948

Jersey Joe Walcott - Third round

1951

Rocky Marciano 2x - Twice in the Eighth round.

Ten times.

1936

Max Schmeling 2x - Fourth round and Twelvth round.

1937

James Braddock - First round

1939

Tony Galento - Third round

1941

Buddy Baer - First Round

1947

Jersey Joe Walcott 2x - First round and Fourth round

1948

Jersey Joe Walcott - Third round

1951

Rocky Marciano 2x - Twice in the Eighth round.
Looks right to me. I tend to rush things (i multi task to much), so I am sure I mis added some of the knocked Louis scored in with the knockdowns against him. Thanks butterfly for more indepth answer (including the rounds, and fighters).

Actually, Louis' best win was Walcott, not Schmeling.Walcott had a better resume and in my opinion also was a better fighter than Schmeling. Joe's best opponents that he defeated might look something like this.

1) Jersey Joe Walcott
2) Max Baer
3) Max Schmeling
4) Billy Conn
5) Jim Braddock
6) Tommy Farr
7) Buddy Baer
8) Tony Galento
9) John Henry Lewis
10) Abe Simon

I've read that Louis considered his 1935 win over Max Baer to be his best ever performance. Interestingly, Baer climbed back in the ratings to #1 challenger in 1940 based on his strong showings against Tony Galento and Pat Comiskey. While Baer was rated #1 Louis granted title fights to Al McCoy, Gus Dorazio and Tony Musto who were not ranked in the top 10 at the time.

LOUIS LOOKS AHEAD TO SEPTEMBER BOUT; Elated by Victory Over Godoy, Champion Plans to Oppose Max Baer or Galento COLLECTS $55,989 CHECK Earnings Soar to $1,704,341 --Beaten Rival's Share of Stadium Purse $23,620


His thudding fists having pounded Arturo Godoy into submission through eight blazing rounds at the Yankee Stadium on Thursday night, Joe Louis, elated at his success in this latest defense of the world heavyweight championship, yesterday looked forward to the twelfth challenge for his crown.
-The New York Times June 22, 1940

BAER CARRIED OUT PRE-BATTLE PLANS; Kept Up Body Attack, Forcing Galento to Uncover Chin --Loser's Hand Hurt

Jubilant over his victory, Max Baer declared tonight that he now wants another chance at Joe Louis for the heavyweight title. This was almost the first thing he said when he got back to his dressing room, where he was almost smothered by the crowd that followed him in.
-The New York Times July 3, 1940

Louis-Baer World Title Contest Looms for Chicago in September; Promoter Jacobs and Max's Manager Discuss Plans, With Decision Due in Several Days --X-Rays Show Galento's Hand Broken
-The New York Times Thursday July 4, 1940,

Strangely and unfortunately, Louis promoter Mike Jacobs decided not make the fight as he deemed there was not sufficient interest in a Louis-Baer rematch. I guess there was more interest in watching Louis defend against guys like McCoy, Dorazio and Musto that weren't ranked.

Jacobs instead proposed that Louis face the winner of a fight between Bob Pastor (who Louis had already defeated twice) and light-heavyweight champion Billy Conn.

Walcott had a better resume and in my opinion also was a better fighter than Schmeling. Joe's best opponents that he defeated might look something like this.

1) Jersey Joe Walcott
2) Max Baer
3) Max Schmeling
4) Billy Conn
5) Jim Braddock
6) Tommy Farr
7) Buddy Baer
8) Tony Galento
9) John Henry Lewis
10) Abe Simon

I don't know about putting lewis in there, as he was legally blind at the time, so I heard. Also Jack Sharkey should be on that list. He was a pretty good fighter, who did give Louis some trouble when they fought.

I don't know about putting lewis in there, as he was legally blind at the time, so I heard. Also Jack Sharkey should be on that list. He was a pretty good fighter, who did give Louis some trouble when they fought.Sharkey was old, washed up and got blasted out but you're right about Lewis, he was legally blind and lost his licence after the fight. He had good credentials though mainly at light-heavy. He shouldn't have been in the ring against Louis due to his eye condition. The list was off the top of my head so maybe Bob Pastor or Arturo Godoy should be ther instead.

Jersey Joe Walcott may have been a slightly better fighter than Max Schmeling (any difference is quite minimal, in my opinion), but when things like quality of opposition, significance, performance, etc., are all factored into the equation, then the rematch with Schmeling becomes undoubtably Louis' "best" win of his career.

The list was off the top of my head so maybe Bob Pastor or Arturo Godoy should be ther instead.

...or possibly Lou Nova, who's another borderline guy that might fill out the top ten in such a category.

Sharkey was old, washed up and got blasted out but you're right about Lewis, he was legally blind and lost his licence after the fight. He had good credentials though mainly at light-heavy. He shouldn't have been in the ring against Louis due to his eye condition. The list was off the top of my head so maybe Bob Pastor or Arturo Godoy should be ther instead.

I know he was in his mid thirties. But he was still better than Guys like Abe Simon and Buddy Baer.

Not neccesarily. What makes you put down Abe Simon and Buddy Baer? Those were decent heavyweights and incredibly strong individuals. Sharkey was a very good fighter, who by most accounts had the potential to be great, in his prime, but when Louis got to him he was finished.

Not neccesarily. What makes you put down Abe Simon and Buddy Baer? Those were decent heavyweights and incredibly strong individuals. Sharkey was a very good fighter, who by most accounts had the potential to be great, in his prime, but when Louis got to him he was finished.

5 years earlier, Sharkey would've given Louis all kinds of hell with his jab and right hand. But by that time, Sharkey was just a journeyman and Louis took him as an easy night after the first Schmelling disaster.

Agreed. Sharkey in his prime was a very good and talented boxer who just wasn't right in the head and was inconsistent as a fighter.

Agreed. Sharkey in his prime was a very good and talented boxer who just wasn't right in the head and was inconsistent as a fighter.

Like against Dempsey LOLz, "Hey ref, this mother****er BLAM!!!!!!!!" Which way did he go George?

Yeah that was just plain crazy of him. Or how he stayed down against Carnera because he saw the ghost of his friend Erinie Schaaf in the ring? I don't think he was making that up either.

Yeah that was just plain crazy of him. Or how he stayed down against Carnera because he saw the ghost of his friend Erinie Schaaf in the ring? I don't think he was making that up either.

Of course not, that dude was haunted by killing that man.

reminds me of what jesus chavez or ray mancini must feel when they look at a boxing match on tv. Everyone else looks at it like a sporting event, a boxing match, but what the average person doesn't see is the worst case scenario, which mancini and chavez both experienced first-hand.

it's the same way I felt when I looked at normal relationships after I
I had my heart broke. 'It appears to be something so normal, so everyday. Then you fall in love and get your heart broken, and realize that a normal relationship can so easily turn into a nightmarish ****storm that leaves you depressed for weeks.'

Strangely and unfortunately, Louis promoter Mike Jacobs decided not make the fight as he deemed there was not sufficient interest in a Louis-Baer rematch.

Come August 1st of that year (or earlier...only going on the NY Times article on that date), Max Baer expressed a change of heart and was one of those who had no interest in being a part of or seeing another Louis/Baer bout...

"There was a feeling of relief in this corner when Uncle Mike Jacobs decided that nobody cared greatly for another Louis-Baer bout. The non-caring group included Max Addled-a-Bit Baer, who in this instance showed more than a glimmer of good common sense."

But I'm pretty sure you've already read that bit, though.

The August 7th, 1940 edition of the Washinhton Post also has a blirb that states "Max Baer gave up plans to meet the champion this fall".

Come August 1st of that year (or earlier...only going on the NY Times article on that date), Max Baer expressed a change of heart and was one of those who had no interest in being a part of or seeing another Louis/Baer bout...

"There was a feeling of relief in this corner when Uncle Mike Jacobs decided that nobody cared greatly for another Louis-Baer bout. The non-caring group included Max Addled-a-Bit Baer, who in this instance showed more than a glimmer of good common sense."

But I'm pretty sure you've already read that bit, though.

The August 7th, 1940 edition of the Washinhton Post also has a blirb that states "Max Baer gave up plans to meet the champion this fall".Yeah, I traced the whole timeline and am at a loss why Baer would even be fighting if he didn't want the chance to fight for the championship after reaching #1 contender status. Alot of money to be made and surely a much more lucrative payday for Louis than anyone else since Conn hadn't really made his foray into the heavyweight ranks at the time. I would like a better explanation and more clarification. I can't understand why journeymen like Musto, McCoy and Dorazio were willing to fight Louis and Baer allegedly didn't want to. Strange since immediately after his Galento win in July Baer was calling out for a shot at Louis.

I rate Ali and Louis #1 and #2. I go by all the facts. I watch films, look at the records, look at who they fought and beat.

I put this up on a couple of other sites, so forgive me if I repeat myself.

Ali fought the best, followed very closely by Louis.

Of Ali's 61 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 38 times (62.295%), winning 33 (54.098%) of them. He also fought a total of 49 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. That's a percentage of 80.3279%.

Of Louis's 72 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 34 times (47.887%), winning 31 (43.056%) of them. He also fought a total of 54 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 72 bouts. That's a percentage of 76.056%.

Of Rocky's 49 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them only 11 times (22.44898%), winning all 11 (22.44898%) of them. He also fought a total of 16 bouts that boxers were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 49 bouts. That's a percentage of only 32.653%.

Ali fought boxers with an average pro record of W-32.23 - L-5.25 - D-1.2, for an average winning percentage of 85.268595%

Louis fought boxers with an average pro record of W-38.1 - L-10.23 - D-2.6 for an average winning percentage of 77.349364%

Rocky fought boxers with an average pro record of W-29.7 - L-10.16 - D-1.77 for an average winning percentage of 73.48%

Yeah, I traced the whole timeline and am at a loss why Baer would even be fighting if he didn't want the chance to fight for the championship after reaching #1 contender status. Alot of money to be made and surely a much more lucrative payday for Louis than anyone else since Conn hadn't really made his foray into the heavyweight ranks at the time. I would like a better explanation and more clarification. I can't understand why journeymen like Musto, McCoy and Dorazio were willing to fight Louis and Baer allegedly didn't want to. Strange since immediately after his Galento win in July Baer was calling out for a shot at Louis.

I think a lot of the answer lies in your "not sufficient interest" comment made earlier in the thread, as that seems to be the prevailing case in some of the things already posted, as well as some other articles I've found...

For example this article in the July 21st, 1940 edition of the Washington Post also illustrates the lack of "interest" in the proposed Louis/Baer rematch, or more accurately, makes fun of the whole idea of the fight;

"Stew-pend-us ideas are stirring around in the brains of Washington's fight-promoting team ... and the strange thing about the whole business is that said idea are to be considered with a large amount of seriousness. You want to know about the idea? Here 'tis -- Max Baer versus Heavyweight Champion Joe Louis in Griffith Stadium in September."

Because of some of the things being said at the time (more later), I'd have to think that the interest in the fight was very much lacking, and it wasn't nearly as big a money fight as it might appear to have been some 60+ years later (considering the name value of both).

The second thing that I think goes hand-in-hand with the general lack of interest in the bout, was Baer's asking price of a guaranteed $50,000 (that figure is very comparable to what Louis himself was making as the champion in other title defenses around that time), and it appears that Jacobs wasn't willing to guarantee Max that type of coin when talks about the fight had generated so little interest in the press...

"In case you give a hang, here is the basis of the argument between Max Baer and Mike Jacobs. Baer believes that he is the only drawing card left for Louis to fight. Believes, in fact, that he is such a drawing card that he should be given a $50,000 guarantee, just to appear. Mike argues, 'if he's such a whale of a drawing card he should take the percentage I'm offereing him. He'll make more money that way, if he can draw like he says he can." - (July 27th, 1940 edition of the Washington Post).

Note the "in case you give a hang" statement for more illustration on how the potential fight was percieved by the public/press during that time.

I think a lot of the answer lies in your "not sufficient interest" comment made earlier in the thread, as that seems to be the prevailing case in some of the things already posted, as well as some other articles I've found...

For example this article in the July 21st, 1940 edition of the Washington Post also illustrates the lack of "interest" in the proposed Louis/Baer rematch, or more accurately, makes fun of the whole idea of the fight;

"Stew-pend-us ideas are stirring around in the brains of Washington's fight-promoting team ... and the strange thing about the whole business is that said idea are to be considered with a large amount of seriousness. You want to know about the idea? Here 'tis -- Max Baer versus Heavyweight Champion Joe Louis in Griffith Stadium in September."

Because of some of the things being said at the time (more later), I'd have to think that the interest in the fight was very much lacking, and it wasn't nearly as big a money fight as it might appear to have been some 60+ years later (considering the name value of both).

The second thing that I think goes hand-in-hand with the general lack of interest in the bout, was Baer's asking price of a guaranteed $50,000 (that figure is very comparable to what Louis himself was making as the champion in other title defenses around that time), and it appears that Jacobs wasn't willing to guarantee Max that type of coin when talks about the fight had generated so little interest in the press...

"In case you give a hang, here is the basis of the argument between Max Baer and Mike Jacobs. Baer believes that he is the only drawing card left for Louis to fight. Believes, in fact, that he is such a drawing card that he should be given a $50,000 guarantee, just to appear. Mike argues, 'if he's such a whale of a drawing card he should take the percentage I'm offereing him. He'll make more money that way, if he can draw like he says he can." - (July 27th, 1940 edition of the Washington Post).

Note the "in case you give a hang" statement for more illustration on how the potential fight was percieved by the public/press during that time.Good info regarding Baer's asking price. There may not have been a huge amount of interest in a Baer fight, nor could there have been much interest in Louis-Pastor III which might have been a reality had Pastor not been defeated by Conn. Ditto for Dorazio, McCoy, and Musto etc...Baer was the #1 contender and should have been most qualified for a shot whether or not there was great interest in the fight or not. I'm not sure if there was great interest in Louis versus anybody at that time since Conn hadn't established himself as a heavyweight threat at the time.

In any event if Baer priced himself out of the fight then it's his own fault.

I just thought if Baer as washed up as he was was good enough to gain a number 1 ranking, then the division must have been in real bad shape. I could understand Baer having cold feet in the end, because of the beating he got the first time. If they did actually fight a second time, I think Louis could have taken him out in one round. Baer was completely shot, and Louis was a bigger, faster, and more refined fighter in '40 than in '35 and would have probably damaged Baer real bad.

I've thought about it considerably, and I might have to place Louis as the best heavyweight ever. It's a hard decision, because boxing has changed so much since then and the way he went about the title was a little tricky. He had 25 defenses of his title, but the majority of them were Bum of the Month types. Johnny Paycheck, Buddy Baer and the rest of Joe Blow and the Nobody Crew. The best guys he beat as champion were Billy Conn and the rematch with Max Schmelling. Schmelling of course blew him out in 12 in their first fight.

What gives Louis considerable clout with the rankings I'd say is his punching power; him and Sonny Liston are my top picks with regards to having the hammer at heavyweight. The punches that Louis landed to knock out Jimmy Braddock and Max Schmeling were whoppers, right hands with everything turned on it and punched right through them.

What I also like about Louis is that he was smart as well as tough. Sure, he had to climb off the canvas almost as much as Floyd Patterson, but he did it and came back to win a lot. He had that perfect flaw that was an integral part of the Felix Trinidad appeal, he was human yet seemed to transcend that role as a man in the ring.

Of course, with the American public still reeling from the in-your-face bravado of Jack Johnson, Joe Louis' image had to be tailored to make him acceptable to the segregated times that he lived in. Listed among Louis' "bad habits" were an addiction to chicken and a voracious appetite for chewing bubble gum. Later it would turn out that he also was just as voracious with women and in later years would struggle with cocaine and several other drugs.

During WWII, when I believe Franklin Roosevelt squeezed his muscle and said "We need more muscles like these for the effort", he became the first beloved black man in pop culture for embodying American values. As Jimmy Cannon stated, "Joe Louis is a credit to his race, the human race."

In the modern era of primadonna sports stars, Joe Louis can be appreciated for the talent and class that he intertwined simultaneously. One of the many black eyes that America carries is the way that the IRS harrassed Joe Louis later in his life, subjecting him to such farces as his ill-fated comeback against Rocky Marciano and his sojourn into the world of professional wrestling.

In the end, Louis was left in a somewhat less than majestic state, as a greeter for a Las Vegas casino. He also suffered from bouts of delusions as a result of his issues with drugs. He was given a hero's burial in Arlington National Cemetary when he died in 1981, an ending befitting the great character that he was. Athis funeral, Muhammad Ali whispered into Joe Louis Barrow Jr.'s ear "Your father truly was the greatest."

Depends on how u rate Greatness, I rate Joe Louis as number 1 in terms of accomplishments and longeveity and such but if u rate it by pictureing the top fighters going at it i think Tyson beats more than any1 and i rate him number1 in these surrcumstances

Joe's win over primo carnera was big too. Either way i think foreman would beat all of them, however, he didn't accomplish the most if that's what this is about. My top 10 are:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Foreman
4. Holmes
5. Marciano
6. Frazier
7. Lewis
8. Holyfield
9. Liston
10. Tyson


Guys like dempsey, jack johnson, floy patterson and ken norton were good during thier era. However, if you do head to head fantasy fights, those are the best.

I just thought if Baer as washed up as he was was good enough to gain a number 1 ranking, then the division must have been in real bad shape. Baer is a bit of an enigma to me. My rating of him as the 2nd best fighter Louis defeated has alot to do with the fact that he KO'd Schmeling, although Schmeling you could argue was the better fighter overall despite that loss.

After the Louis loss Baer rung up a substantial number of wins against mostly novice fighters, engaged in some 6 round fights and actually lost a 6 round decision to a guy making his pro debut. When he stepped up in class against Tommy Farr and Lou Nova he was defeated. After the Galento win suddenly Baer was ranked as the #1 contender. Not alot of public interest in Louis-Baer II, but remember there wasn't alot of interest in Louis-Walcott despite the 10-1 underdog Walcott also being the #1 contender. There was such a lack of interest in fact that it was going to be an exhibition.

definitely top 2 greatest heavy weight champion after Ali

His biggest wins, walcott and schmeling, are either of those guys top 10, no. How the **** does this make him #1, cuz he defended his belt against a bunch of bums.

His biggest wins, walcott and schmeling, are either of those guys top 10, no. How the **** does this make him #1, cuz he defended his belt against a bunch of bums.

His competition was superior to Holmes, though, and most people put him on a pedastal.

His competition was superior to Holmes, though, and most people put him on a pedastal.

Yeah but if you put holmes in the same situation, he would have beaten all of louis's opponents. Another thing, larry arguably was robbed for 3 of his 6 losses.

Yeah but if you put holmes in the same situation, he would have beaten all of louis's opponents. Another thing, larry arguably was robbed for 3 of his 6 losses.

Yes, but put Louis in Holmes situation and the same things happen.

Yes, but put Louis in Holmes situation and the same things happen.

Holmes doesnt get ko'd by schmeling :owned:

Holmes doesnt get ko'd by schmeling :owned:

Well, I was really talking about his title reign.

Well, I was really talking about his title reign.

If larry holmes represented america during the 80;s and beat some russian guy in a fight during the cold war, he would have been as popular as joe louis. Politics play a huge role in how a boxer is looked at. Even though i like joe louis, he is vastly overrated.

If larry holmes represented america during the 80;s and beat some russian guy in a fight during the cold war, he would have been as popular as joe louis.

I'm shocked! This is the first post you've made that actually made any sense. I agree with you 100% on that.(Although, not attcking Berbick in a parking lot, and not saying Marciano couldn't hold his jockstrap wouldn't hurt either.)

Politics play a huge role in how a boxer is looked at. Even though i like joe louis, he is vastly overrated.

Well, if you notice, Holmes did not unify. Louis cleaned out the division. He missed a few black fighters, but for financial reasons only. Holmes sometimes had controversial decisions (Witherspoon for example), and didn't give a rematch when it happened. When Louis had a controversial decision, he quickly gave a rematch (Tommy Farr the only exception) and destroyed his foe. He left little doubt as to who was the best. Holmes was just trying to get to 50-0 with as little trouble as possible, and avoided a couple of fighters that presented any kind of trouble. Louis' reign was better than Holmes.

I'm shocked! This is the first post you've made that actually made any sense. I agree with you 100% on that.(Although, not attcking Berbick in a parking lot, and not saying Marciano couldn't hold his jockstrap wouldn't hurt either.)



Well, if you notice, Holmes did not unify. Louis cleaned out the division. He missed a few black fighters, but for financial reasons only. Holmes sometimes had controversial decisions (Witherspoon for example), and didn't give a rematch when it happened. When Louis had a controversial decision, he quickly gave a rematch (Tommy Farr the only exception) and destroyed his foe. He left little doubt as to who was the best. Holmes was just trying to get to 50-0 with as little trouble as possible, and avoided a couple of fighters that presented any kind of trouble. Louis' reign was better than Holmes.

Larry didnt unify the division cuz the promoters didnt want it to happen. I dont think page, coetzee and tate were threats to him.

Even though ali was shot, holmes's win over him does mean something. Its more meaningful than rocky beating moore and louis. All you have to do is watch louis vs ezzard, which was 1 year before the rocky fight. Ezzard brutally kicked the crap out of joe louis. While ali was coming off a win over leon spinks and he was still boxing exhibition matches.

Larry Holmes was going to be 50-0, his fights with spinks were both fixed by the corrupt sport of boxing so rocco's record would stay alive. Everyone knew larry was robbed.

larry's real record is 72-3, however on paper it reads 69-6.

Larry didnt unify the division cuz the promoters didnt want it to happen. I dont think page, coetzee and tate were threats to him.

Even though ali was shot, holmes's win over him does mean something. Its more meaningful than rocky beating moore and louis. All you have to do is watch louis vs ezzard, which was 1 year before the rocky fight. Ezzard brutally kicked the crap out of joe louis. While ali was coming off a win over leon spinks and he was still boxing exhibition matches.

Larry Holmes was going to be 50-0, his fights with spinks were both fixed by the corrupt sport of boxing so rocco's record would stay alive. Everyone knew larry was robbed.

larry's real record is 72-3, however on paper it reads 69-6.

I think Larry would have beaten them as well, but nontheless he didn't fight him. And don't give me that bull about how they didn't allow him to fight them. If he really wanted to fight them then they would have no choice but to let him fight them. He avoided them, period.

Marciano beating Louis means much more than Holmes beating Ali. Louis was still an active fighter, while Ali came out of retirement. Louis was still fighting and beating top contenders, while Ali looked bad losing to Spinks. Ali was also drugged before the fight and was helpless the whole time, while Louis was actually competitive against Marciano.

Larry lost to Spinks the first time, no question. He got embarrased. This should not even be an issue. However, your right about the second fight. Holmes was robbed.

I think Larry would have beaten them as well, but nontheless he didn't fight him. And don't give me that bull about how they didn't allow him to fight them. If he really wanted to fight them then they would have no choice but to let him fight them. He avoided them, period.

Marciano beating Louis means much more than Holmes beating Ali. Louis was still an active fighter, while Ali came out of retirement. Louis was still fighting and beating top contenders, while Ali looked bad losing to Spinks. Ali was also drugged before the fight and was helpless the whole time, while Louis was actually competitive against Marciano.

Larry lost to Spinks the first time, no question. He got embarrased. This should not even be an issue. However, your right about the second fight. Holmes was robbed.

You dont want me to make an exuse, then fine. Jack dempsey did not defend his belt against the top black guys, i dont want to hear u make up crap cuz i know why he didnt do it. Either way people are now gonna question if harry wills would have beaten him, this will haunt dempsey forever.

Another thing larry looked far more imprssive at the age of 36 against spinks than dempsey did at the age of 31 against tunney. Dempsey got outboxed for 19 out of 20 rounds. Dont make an excuse like he was past it or dempsey was "shot". He beat a ranked fighter by KO inbetween those fights.

Holmes was not inactive for years and drinking heavily, staying up late each night, and ****ing half of Hollywood.

Holmes was not inactive for years and drinking heavily, staying up late each night, and ****ing half of Hollywood.

Dempsey was still doing exhibitions and he had a fight with sharkey inbetween. So yeah, he got exposed by a light heavyweight, congrats dempsey.

Holmes was not inactive for years and drinking heavily, staying up late each night, and ****ing half of Hollywood.

lol I started laughing when I read that, the wording was great. And its true:banana:

Dempsey was still champ while he was inactive, thats a joke. They should have given the belt to harry wills cuz dempsey's manager was too scared of him.

Holmes was not inactive for years and drinking heavily, staying up late each night, and ****ing half of Hollywood.

You beat me to it.

Dempsey was still doing exhibitions and he had a fight with sharkey inbetween. So yeah, he got exposed by a light heavyweight, congrats dempsey.

And Holmes while fighting ofen still got exposed by a lightheavyweight as well.:rolleyes:

Dempsey was still champ while he was inactive, thats a joke. They should have given the belt to harry wills cuz dempsey's manager was too scared of him.

It's still not Dempsey's fault that he didn't fight Wills.

And Holmes while fighting ofen still got exposed by a lightheavyweight as well.:rolleyes:

Winning 7 rounds means you got exposed, haha. At least he won a round, something dempsey couldnt do.:owned:

Harry wills should have been awarded the belt while dempsey was busy getting laid. Harry Wills will be dempsey's version of darius michalczewski, the guy he never fought but was expected to.

whos joe louis:confused:

Winning 7 rounds means you got exposed, haha. At least he won a round, something dempsey couldnt do.:owned:

Harry wills should have been awarded the belt while dempsey was busy getting laid. Harry Wills will be dempsey's version of darius michalczewski, the guy he never fought but was expected to.

I see your another Roy Jones hater, huh?

Anyway, Holmes was active as still lost, Demspey was not. Plus Tunney is better than Spinks at heavyweight.

I see your another Roy Jones hater, huh?

Anyway, Holmes was active as still lost, Demspey was not. Plus Tunney is better than Spinks at heavyweight.

I'm a roy jones nuthugger, by the way how is tunney better at heavyweight. This is ridiculous, spinks beat cooney while tunney fought a bum and retired. Michael spinks is one of my favourites, hes ****in awesome. If he isnt in your top 5 at 175, its a joke.

I'm a roy jones nuthugger, by the way how is tunney better at heavyweight. This is ridiculous, spinks beat cooney while tunney fought a bum and retired. Michael spinks is one of my favourites, hes ****in awesome. If he isnt in your top 5 at 175, its a joke.

Spinks is better at 175, but Tunney is better at heavyweight. Cooney was nothing but a media-hype. A great white joke. So that means nothing. Tunney would be more succesful against heavyweights than Spinks would. What did Spinks do? He beat an old Holmes, then got a gift decision from Holmes and then beat an inactive and overrated Gerry Cooney, and then got obliterated by Tyson. Tunney was faster of hand and foot than Spinks and could take heavyweight punches better than Spinks.

Spinks is better at 175, but Tunney is better at heavyweight. Cooney was nothing but a media-hype. A great white joke. So that means nothing. Tunney would be more succesful against heavyweights than Spinks would. What did Spinks do? He beat an old Holmes, then got a gift decision from Holmes and then beat an inactive and overrated Gerry Cooney, and then got obliterated by Tyson. Tunney was faster of hand and foot than Spinks and could take heavyweight punches better than Spinks.

What did he do? He became linear champ, which is huge if you are a 175er. Im postive that from 1985-1987 he was top 5 pound for pound. Gerry cooney is a great win to ad to ur resume, better than that bum tunney fought before he retired.

What did he do? He became linear champ, which is huge if you are a 175er. Im postive that from 1985-1987 he was top 5 pound for pound. Gerry cooney is a great win to ad to ur resume, better than that bum tunney fought before he retired.

What makes him a bum? The fact that you know little about him? That just means your stupified when it comes to boxing history.:owned:

What makes him a bum? The fact that you know little about him? That just means your stupified when it comes to boxing history.:owned:

he aint better than cooney:owned:

yes...man i love these easy answers :)

Its like 56 of the greatest heavyweights of all time. I have this computer program that calulates the fights. I write the interviews, and ect. Then post the fights on the blog. After this I really want to write a pound for pound tournament! Not use the program just type out the fights.

sounds good, what program is it? I also have a computer program that can simulate fights, mine is Title Bout Championship Boxing 2. I would like to check out your tournament, where can I see it?

Harry wills should have been awarded the belt while dempsey was busy getting laid.

While you're awarding Wills the belt you might as well continue with your logic and pass the title down to Godfrey or Tunney, who both repeatedly challenged Wills (and in Godfrey's case, on NUMEROUS different occasions...at least Dempsey made an effort & signed to face Wills on a couple of seperate occasions) during Dempsey's inactive stage, only to see Wills express absolutely no interest in fighting either of them them and saw him continuously turn down proposed matches against those two...

Hey, take it one step further and we can easily say that Tunney ducked Godfrey, and have sources to back that up, so by your logic, that makes Godfrey the champion, which, funnily enough, is what Godfrey & others close to him "claimed" him to be in 1925 during Dempsey's time off.

Joe Louis doesnt deserve to be the #1 heavyweight of all times, i mean who the **** does Ali have to beat to convince morons that his resume blows joe's out of the window. There is a reason the term "bums" is associated with the guys louis defended his belt against, on top of that he gets knocked out by minny hitler for god's sakes.

Ali beat foreman, frazier, liston, patterson, norton, shavers, quarry and like 10 other guys. Joe louis got a gift over walcott and he beat schmeling, o wow!

Joe Louis doesnt deserve to be the #1 heavyweight of all times, i mean who the **** does Ali have to beat to convince morons that his resume blows joe's out of the window. There is a reason the term "bums" is associated with the guys louis defended his belt against, on top of that he gets knocked out by minny hitler for god's sakes.

Ali beat foreman, frazier, liston, patterson, norton, shavers, quarry and like 10 other guys. Joe louis got a gift over walcott and he beat schmeling, o wow!

I'm going to leave most of the anti-arguement to others; but you're dissing Joe way too harshly.

Schmeling was a very, very good fighter with a good chin; and Joe destroyed him under the most intense pressure imagineable. Other wins of note against very good opposistion would be he wins over Baer, Carnera and Sharkey...from a dominance factor; they weren't "great"; but they were above average for the day. Then, there's Lou Nova, Arturo Godoy, King Levinski, Billy Conn. After serving four years in the Army and fighting only exhibitions, he stopped topped ranked Tami Mauriello, did get a gift over Walcott.....but stopped him in the rematch.

Reigning for damn near 12 years and successfully defending the belt 25 times without a loss is nothing to sneeze at.

Joe Louis doesnt deserve to be the #1 heavyweight of all times, i mean who the **** does Ali have to beat to convince morons that his resume blows joe's out of the window. There is a reason the term "bums" is associated with the guys louis defended his belt against, on top of that he gets knocked out by minny hitler for god's sakes.

Ali beat foreman, frazier, liston, patterson, norton, shavers, quarry and like 10 other guys. Joe louis got a gift over walcott and he beat schmeling, o wow!


ali beat a bully who had previously averaged 3 rounds per fight, 2 fixed fights with the undergrounds favourite boy, a guy whos back was ****ed from round 2 onwards, lost 2 fights to norton ( bad judges in # 3 )...i`ll give him his due against frazier but i still dont rank shavers, quarry, bugner, a blown up bob foster etc

12 years the champ..nuff said

I'm going to leave most of the anti-arguement to others; but you're dissing Joe way too harshly.

Schmeling was a very, very good fighter with a good chin; and Joe destroyed him under the most intense pressure imagineable. Other wins of note against very good opposistion would be he wins over Baer, Carnera and Sharkey...from a dominance factor; they weren't "great"; but they were above average for the day. Then, there's Lou Nova, Arturo Godoy, King Levinski, Billy Conn. After serving four years in the Army and fighting only exhibitions, he stopped topped ranked Tami Mauriello, did get a gift over Walcott.....but stopped him in the rematch.

Reigning for damn near 12 years and successfully defending the belt 25 times without a loss is nothing to sneeze at.

i dont belive the 12 year run hype, he didnt fight for 4 years cuz of WW2 and he never defended his belt in 1949 either, his run was as long as larry's. Ali beat superior oppostition, there is no other way to it.

ali beat a bully who had previously averaged 3 rounds per fight, 2 fixed fights with the undergrounds favourite boy, a guy whos back was ****ed from round 2 onwards, lost 2 fights to norton ( bad judges in # 3 )...i`ll give him his due against frazier but i still dont rank shavers, quarry, bugner, a blown up bob foster etc

12 years the champ..nuff said

ali beat 3 guys that are debatable top 10s, louis beat none. I dont see shcmeling and walcott in anyone's top 10, unless they are retarded.

ali beat a bully who had previously averaged 3 rounds per fight, 2 fixed fights with the undergrounds favourite boy, a guy whos back was ****ed from round 2 onwards, lost 2 fights to norton ( bad judges in # 3 )...i`ll give him his due against frazier but i still dont rank shavers, quarry, bugner, a blown up bob foster etc

12 years the champ..nuff said


Now, you're over-simplifying.

1. Foreman was that damn deadly, if not crude....the wins over Frazier and Norton were awesome and impressive.
2. Neither Liston fight was "fixed."...that is a modern myth.
3. In my opinion, all Ali-Norton fights were scored correctly.
4. Shavers, Quarry, & Bugner were light-years better than Johnny Paycheck, Jack Roper and Tony Galento....and Foster would have killed the version of Lewis that Louis fought.

Be fair.

Both Schmeling and Walcott appeared in many top ten lists until recently when guys like Holyfield and Lewis made their way in. I consider Schmeling and Walcott top fifteen heavyweights but I wouldn't laugh if someone put Schmeling in at #10. After all, if Foreman gets so much credit for beating Frazier, why not give Schmeling a place in the top ten for beating the greatest (or 2nd greatest, depending on your opinion) heavyweight of all time.

Even having Walcott in the top ten is hardly "retarded". I don't agree with it, but it's not like they're putting someone like Cooney or Chuvalo in.

your correct i am over simplifying it..i apologise BUT you have to admit that both liston fights were dubious...this was a guy who would make frazier, foreman etc quake with fear YET ali knocked him out with a 3 inch right after 90 seconds....this from a guy who was never a one punch killer ( he was always a combination finisher )against a fighter who had never gone down in his career

I would rank bowe and tyson ahead of walcott, without a doubt. If that idiot actually fought after his fights with golota, he might have been top 10.

Either way i dont rank johnson and dempsey in my top 10, marciano is there no doubt. But sorry lennox and evander have better resume than those two and no one is changing my opinion on it.

your correct i am over simplifying it..i apologise BUT you have to admit that both liston fights were dubious...this was a guy who would make frazier, foreman etc quake with fear YET ali knocked him out with a 3 inch right after 90 seconds....this from a guy who was never a one punch killer ( he was always a combination finisher )against a fighter who had never gone down in his career

In the first fight, Liston quit because he knew Clay was gonna knock him out...he'd beat the crap out of him in the 6th.

In the second fight, the referee, Walcott, screwed up. He never directed Ali to a neutral corner, never gave Liston a count, and listened to the editor of a magazine and stopped the fight after Liston and Ali had already reengaged with each other. That was Walcott's first time refereeing a Championship bout and his last....he royally screwed up.

The reason both fights had that "air" about them was because of the suspicious nature of the Nation of Islam (Malcolm X had just been assasinated) and Sonny's ties to the mob. The punch that dropped him was legit; but he could have gotten up. He didn't becaue Ali, whom he thought was a nutjob, was dancing all around and the ref never gave him a count.

The ref's job is to protect the fighter, Walcott shirked this by alloweing Ali to be within punching range while Liston was on the canvas. Also, when a fighter gets knocked down, they listen for the count.....Walcott never gave one.


The whole affair was FUBAR.

I would rank bowe and tyson ahead of walcott, without a doubt. If that idiot actually fought after his fights with golota, he might have been top 10.

Either way i dont rank johnson and dempsey in my top 10, marciano is there no doubt. But sorry lennox and evander have better resume than those two and no one is changing my opinion on it.


i have no argument with holyfield...i picked him to eventually beat the then undefeated tyson back in 89 ( yes everyone laughed at me :) ) but i will never rate lewis in a top 10....

In the first fight, Liston quit because he knew Clay was gonna knock him out...he'd beat the crap out of him in the 6th.

In the second fight, the referee, Walcott, screwed up. He never directed Ali to a neutral corner, never gave Liston a count, and listened to the editor of a magazine and stopped the fight after Liston and Ali had already reengaged with each other. That was Walcott's first time refereeing a Championship bout and his last....he royally screwed up.

The reason both fights had that "air" about them was because of the suspicious nature of the Nation of Islam (Malcolm X had just been assasinated) and Sonny's ties to the mob. The punch that dropped him was legit; but he could have gotten up. He didn't becaue Ali, whom he thought was a nutjob, was dancing all around and the ref never gave him a count.

The ref's job is to protect the fighter, Walcott shirked this by alloweing Ali to be within punching range while Liston was on the canvas. Also, when a fighter gets knocked down, they listen for the count.....Walcott never gave one.


The whole affair was FUBAR.

:fing02:..

The idea that a sharp right cross that landed on Listons jaw as he moved towards ali dropped him is absurd? Anymore absurd than the notion that an old man liston was able to anticipate and fall immediately upon the contact this '3 inch punch' made ... that could only be seen with the assitance of slow motion replay, delivered by the fastest punching HW of all time?

The idea that a sharp right cross that landed on Listons jaw as he moved towards ali dropped him is absurd? Anymore absurd than the notion that an old man liston was able to anticipate and fall immediately upon the contact this '3 inch punch' made ... that could only be seen with the assitance of slow motion replay, delivered by the fastest punching HW of all time?

:fing02::fing02:

In Joe Frazier's book he talks to a man that worked with the late Charles Sonny Liston who said that Liston admitted that the punch scrambled his eggs. The unexpected punches are the punches that usually do the most damage, especially when coupled with an unprepared recipient. Add this to the fastest heavyweight swing, a long, leveraged arm, and an old man in the challenger's position, and you have a mean punch.

I do believe Liston would have gotten up from this, however, but as stated above, Walcott did a worse job at ref than most officials at College Footbal Bowl Games do.