I've done a lot of thinking about this. I've always appreciated Ali's enormous physical skills and ring generalship, but something has always held me back from proclaiming him the best ever. Now I realize that, in my opinion, Ali simply took too many fights "off." Maybe comparable to how Shaq approaches the game of basketball (shows up during the playoffs)? To me, this lackadaisacal tendancy is completely unacceptable. It is probably what nearly got him knocked out versus Henry Cooper (saved by Dundee's "rip"), and it is definitely what caused him to lose the heavyweight title to a 7-fight pro (a complete disgrace to himself, the sport, and the luster of the heavyweight title, regardless of the result of the rematch).
While Michael Jordan may have had an off-night here and there, his committment every night was to play as hard as possible at all times. Sadly, Ali seemed to consider himself above that consistent, workmanlike approach. In my opinion, what George Foreman accomplished as a 40-plus-year-old fighter (actually able to seriously mix it up with some of the best in the division AND winning the title again...by KNOCKOUT!) makes him, to me, the best heavyweight champion ever.

Ali was not the greatest but the lowest i'll ever put him is number 2, only Joe Louis had as much claim as the greatest of all time, Foreman in his first reign has a short career that span 8 years from 69'-77', big george never even attempt to fight Larry Holmes, who was his same age, yes, Foreman's accomplishment in his 40s were impressive, but he took on a lot of tomato cans on his way to a title shot.

I've done a lot of thinking about this. I've always appreciated Ali's enormous physical skills and ring generalship, but something has always held me back from proclaiming him the best ever. Now I realize that, in my opinion, Ali simply took too many fights "off." Maybe comparable to how Shaq approaches the game of basketball (shows up during the playoffs)? To me, this lackadaisacal tendancy is completely unacceptable. It is probably what nearly got him knocked out versus Henry Cooper (saved by Dundee's "rip"), and it is definitely what caused him to lose the heavyweight title to a 7-fight pro (a complete disgrace to himself, the sport, and the luster of the heavyweight title, regardless of the result of the rematch).
While Michael Jordan may have had an off-night here and there, his committment every night was to play as hard as possible at all times. Sadly, Ali seemed to consider himself above that consistent, workmanlike approach. In my opinion, what George Foreman accomplished as a 40-plus-year-old fighter (actually able to seriously mix it up with some of the best in the division AND winning the title again...by KNOCKOUT!) makes him, to me, the best heavyweight champion ever.

George Foreman couldn't hold Muhammad Ali's jock strap.

two alts conversing

juyjuy anyone ?

George Foreman couldn't hold Muhammad Ali's jock strap.

you know foreman is not that far below ali in the all timerankings!

muhammad ali got old and fought longer than he should have in his prime he was the greatest

BTW i'm not a big ali fan i prefer frazier foreman dempsey etc but i still know ali was the greatest

No way should George Foreman be ranked ahead of Muhammad Ali.

Foreman faced handpicked opposition for his 2nd career except when it came to the title shots.

How many top ten HWs did he beat in his second career?

One? Two?

And I mean real top ten, not some terrible IBF ranking.

Foreman avoided the top HWs for most of his 2nd career, and got away with it because he was the "cute old teddy bear" and stuff like that.

and it is definitely what caused him to lose the heavyweight title to a 7-fight pro (a complete disgrace to himself, the sport, and the luster of the heavyweight title, regardless of the result of the rematch)


A disgrace....you mean like how Foreman got stripped of his belts for avoiding a 36 year old Tony Tucker, got a gift against Alex Schulz, and paid bribes to the IBF???

Oh, and the reason Ali was not the greatest, well, there are a couple.

Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong

Oh, and the reason Ali was not the greatest, well, there are a couple.

Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong


bravo meantioning Sugar Ray, and Armstrong. I agree those are two ahead of Ali Pound for Pound. He (Ali) is number 2 on my all time heavyweight, Louis being closely ahead. Ali is only number 10 in my P4P =/ . I do plan on revising it in afew days though, so that may change =) .

As I just said Ali is my number 2, hence I don't think he was the greatest. However I do list him ahead of Foreman because when Foreman came back he did fight "bums" for along time. When Ali was "around" that age he was fighting young fighters like Leon, and Holmes he might of lost but nonetheless he fought the good fight. I see that equal to Foremans second run. Don't get me wrong what Foreman did was amazing and worthy of future Boxing History praise. If this is a arguement of who is greater Ali or Foreman. Just think of who sent whom into a dark little hole of self doubt for 20 years? That being said I'll end with saying both men are true legends, and both are indeed "Great".

Oh, and the reason Ali was not the greatest, well, there are a couple.

Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong

you forgot Willie Pep

I only rank Joe Louis above Ali in all-time HW rankings.

you forgot Willie Pep

Ali was just as good as Pep, probably better.

Ali was just as good as Pep, probably better.
Did Ali/Clay ever win a round on all three cards without throwing a punch?

I only rank Joe Louis above Ali in all-time HW rankings.
Same here 1. Louis 2. Ali

you forgot Willie Pep
Yep Pep was amazing. May he rest in peace. Easily in the top 3 pound for pound.

I think Louis was the most talented. Ali faced much better opposition and deserves the number one spot because of it. Quarry alone was better than some of the Bums of the month club.

How dare anyone would even talk bad about Foreman!!!!!! The Nerve!!!!!!!!


A PRIME HOLYFIELD couldnt stop that "old teddy bear"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Foreman even TOOK rounds from Holyfield. By round 12 Holyfield didnt think Foreman was a joke.


And then KO'd Moorer, Foreman is an ATG and that's undisputed.

How dare anyone would even talk bad about Foreman!!!!!! The Nerve!!!!!!!!


A PRIME HOLYFIELD couldnt stop that "old teddy bear"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Foreman even TOOK rounds from Holyfield. By round 12 Holyfield didnt think Foreman was a joke.



So?

A prime Holyfield couldn't stop an old Holmes either, and lost to a chinny former LHW in Moorer. Prime Holyfield also was dropped and hurt by a fringe contender in Bert Cooper. Holyfield tended to fight to the level of opposition.

Are you denying that Foreman was very selective in his opposition in his 2nd career, and acted rather un-champion like once he beat Moorer?

Should Foreman get a pass for selective opposition and disgraceful actions just because he was old?

How dare anyone would even talk bad about Foreman!!!!!! The Nerve!!!!!!!!


A PRIME HOLYFIELD
And then KO'd Moorer, Foreman is an ATG and that's undisputed.

And beating Michael Moorer is supposed to make him greater than Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis?

Please.

I think Louis was the most talented. Ali faced much better opposition and deserves the number one spot because of it. Quarry alone was better than some of the Bums of the month club.
I don't agree - if you're talking athletic talent, Ali was probably the most athletically gifted heavyweight there ever was.

In terms of boxing accomplishments, I would rank him the number 2 heavyweight. But in terms of overall significance, there's no doubt - Ali was and is "The Greatest".

Salvador Sanchez is the Greatest

Salvador Sanchez is the Greatest

He's not even the greatest Mexican fighter ever.

Chavez is.

I've done a lot of thinking about this. I've always appreciated Ali's enormous physical skills and ring generalship, but something has always held me back from proclaiming him the best ever. Now I realize that, in my opinion, Ali simply took too many fights "off." Maybe comparable to how Shaq approaches the game of basketball (shows up during the playoffs)? To me, this lackadaisacal tendancy is completely unacceptable. It is probably what nearly got him knocked out versus Henry Cooper (saved by Dundee's "rip"), and it is definitely what caused him to lose the heavyweight title to a 7-fight pro (a complete disgrace to himself, the sport, and the luster of the heavyweight title, regardless of the result of the rematch).
While Michael Jordan may have had an off-night here and there, his committment every night was to play as hard as possible at all times. Sadly, Ali seemed to consider himself above that consistent, workmanlike approach. In my opinion, what George Foreman accomplished as a 40-plus-year-old fighter (actually able to seriously mix it up with some of the best in the division AND winning the title again...by KNOCKOUT!) makes him, to me, the best heavyweight champion ever.

So....:pat: Foreman is not only better than Ali, but the greatest heavyweight ever because he knocked out Moorer.
And Ali lost to Spinks.

I swear there was some rumor i heard a while ago about a young frieght train called Foreman being KO'd by an old has been called Ali in Ziare.

I've done a lot of thinking about this. I've always appreciated Ali's enormous physical skills and ring generalship, but something has always held me back from proclaiming him the best ever. Now I realize that, in my opinion, Ali simply took too many fights "off." Maybe comparable to how Shaq approaches the game of basketball (shows up during the playoffs)? To me, this lackadaisacal tendancy is completely unacceptable. It is probably what nearly got him knocked out versus Henry Cooper (saved by Dundee's "rip"), and it is definitely what caused him to lose the heavyweight title to a 7-fight pro (a complete disgrace to himself, the sport, and the luster of the heavyweight title, regardless of the result of the rematch).
While Michael Jordan may have had an off-night here and there, his committment every night was to play as hard as possible at all times. Sadly, Ali seemed to consider himself above that consistent, workmanlike approach. In my opinion, what George Foreman accomplished as a 40-plus-year-old fighter (actually able to seriously mix it up with some of the best in the division AND winning the title again...by KNOCKOUT!) makes him, to me, the best heavyweight champion ever.

George Foreman, best champion ever? He himself put himself out of the top 10 of all time. Foreman knocking out a glass jawed Michael Moorer who would be lucky to be considered a B level heavyweight champion is hardly the greatest accomplishment of all time. It was a great accomplishment given the circumstances, but thats that. If Foreman was to knock out Holyfield, thats a different situation all together.

Ali was young when he fought guys like Cooper and Dundee didn't create the tear, he just magnified it and brought it to the attention of the ref. It was on Cooper to adjust, but instead he got stopped in the next round. You can't complain to the ref, this is a man's game.

Outside of that, Ali always handled his business in the ring. He beat Foreman, avenged his losses to Norton and Frazier twice over. He was way over the hill when he fought Spinks but still managed to come back and beat him in the rematch. You can't hate on Ali for doing him, thats the way he does.

Did Ali/Clay ever win a round on all three cards without throwing a punch?

The first round against Floyd Patterson in 1965.

:owned:

The first round against Floyd Patterson in 1965.

:owned:
Clay throws two jabs right when the bells ding's. He doesn't throw alot of punches mostly plays with Patterson, but none the less he threw 4-5 jabs in that round. So I'll have to see someone more "proving" then that.

I sure as hell saw George Foreman knocking out a PRIME JOE FRIAZER.



Nobody can laugh when some people say George Foreman is a top 5. He's accomplished too much.

I sure as hell saw George Foreman knocking out a PRIME JOE FRIAZER.



Nobody can laugh when some people say George Foreman is a top 5. He's accomplished too much.

What does this have to do with the original thread starter saying Foreman is NUMBER ONE all-time?

Nobody can laugh, but you sure as hell can solid arguments for him being outside the top 5.

I've done a lot of thinking about this. I've always appreciated Ali's enormous physical skills and ring generalship, but something has always held me back from proclaiming him the best ever. Now I realize that, in my opinion, Ali simply took too many fights "off." Maybe comparable to how Shaq approaches the game of basketball (shows up during the playoffs)? To me, this lackadaisacal tendancy is completely unacceptable. It is probably what nearly got him knocked out versus Henry Cooper (saved by Dundee's "rip"), and it is definitely what caused him to lose the heavyweight title to a 7-fight pro (a complete disgrace to himself, the sport, and the luster of the heavyweight title, regardless of the result of the rematch).
While Michael Jordan may have had an off-night here and there, his committment every night was to play as hard as possible at all times. Sadly, Ali seemed to consider himself above that consistent, workmanlike approach. In my opinion, what George Foreman accomplished as a 40-plus-year-old fighter (actually able to seriously mix it up with some of the best in the division AND winning the title again...by KNOCKOUT!) makes him, to me, the best heavyweight champion ever.

I'm an Ali fan...and you were making a lot of sense until you threw in that George Foreman bit at the end. Close, IMO; but no cigar.

I don't agree - if you're talking athletic talent, Ali was probably the most athletically gifted heavyweight there ever was.

In terms of boxing accomplishments, I would rank him the number 2 heavyweight. But in terms of overall significance, there's no doubt - Ali was and is "The Greatest".

Louis was more of the complete fighter IMO, but Ali deserves to be called the best.

George Foreman, best champion ever? He himself put himself out of the top 10 of all time. Foreman knocking out a glass jawed Michael Moorer who would be lucky to be considered a B level heavyweight champion is hardly the greatest accomplishment of all time. It was a great accomplishment given the circumstances, but thats that. If Foreman was to knock out Holyfield, thats a different situation all together.


agreed.

it was amazing 2 do what he did at age 45, but it doesn't take away from the fact that he beat weak opposition in his 2nd career and didn't exactly beat many contenders in his career.

Clay throws two jabs right when the bells ding's. He doesn't throw alot of punches mostly plays with Patterson, but none the less he threw 4-5 jabs in that round. So I'll have to see someone more "proving" then that.

Quit lying. He didn't throw a punch. He just threw his arms out and acted like he was throwing a punch. He threw no punches, and completely outclassed Patterson and won the round.

:owned:

Quit lying. He didn't throw a punch. He just threw his arms out and acted like he was throwing a punch. He threw no punches, and completely outclassed Patterson and won the round.

:owned:
I never lie, I saw him throw two jabs right at the beginning, and around two more in the later part of the round. I agree he was playing with Patterson, but he did throw PUNCHES (very little but 3 isnt 0).

I never lie, I saw him throw two jabs right at the beginning, and around two more in the later part of the round. I agree he was playing with Patterson, but he did throw PUNCHES (very little but 3 isnt 0).

You saw him stick his arm out to measure the distance between him and Patterson to keep that distance, but he didn't throw any punches. His gloves were open, and he didn't stick it out that fast. They were not punches.

Gene Tunney is above Louis, Ali, and Foreman in my all time heavyweight rankings. Don't get this confused. I'd pick Foreman or Ali over Tunney in an actual bout, any day of the week. It's just that he accomplished way more than either three of those guys, the only one that would give Tunney a run for his money is Foreman because he came back and won the HW title as old as he did. But Tunney is still above the three of them.

now if I were to pick one heavyweight fighter who would have the best chance against any opponent it would be the ali that fought foreman. You understand, it wasn't just his skills that made him so great that night, it was also that the people in the country he was fighting in were with him in that ring, tehy really believed in him.

Gene Tunney is above Louis, Ali, and Foreman in my all time heavyweight rankings. Don't get this confused. I'd pick Foreman or Ali over Tunney in an actual bout, any day of the week. It's just that he accomplished way more than either three of those guys, the only one that would give Tunney a run for his money is Foreman because he came back and won the HW title as old as he did. But Tunney is still above the three of them.

now if I were to pick one heavyweight fighter who would have the best chance against any opponent it would be the ali that fought foreman. You understand, it wasn't just his skills that made him so great that night, it was also that the people in the country he was fighting in were with him in that ring, tehy really believed in him.

Based on how many fights at heavyweight?

How many wins against top heavyweights?

Wow, two wins over Dempsey (who hadn't fought in 3 years) is really better than dethroning Liston and Foreman...or making 25 successful defenses.

GTFOH.

GTFOH.

If you ask me, Hydro, this is about all you needed to say in that particular post of your's.

No way should George Foreman be ranked ahead of Muhammad Ali.

Foreman faced handpicked opposition for his 2nd career except when it came to the title shots.

How many top ten HWs did he beat in his second career?

One? Two?

And I mean real top ten, not some terrible IBF ranking.

Foreman avoided the top HWs for most of his 2nd career, and got away with it because he was the "cute old teddy bear" and stuff like that.



A disgrace....you mean like how Foreman got stripped of his belts for avoiding a 36 year old Tony Tucker, got a gift against Alex Schulz, and paid bribes to the IBF???

Based on how many fights at heavyweight?

How many wins against top heavyweights?

Wow, two wins over Dempsey (who hadn't fought in 3 years) is really better than dethroning Liston and Foreman...or making 25 successful defenses.

GTFOH.

Now you're comparing opposition in separate eras, which isn't the critera. I expected you to do that, though, because I knew you, yourself, had no ****ing idea how to compose an all time list; you're comparing the opposition of separate eras, in your last post, lol.. It's cool though. I've done the same thing before, albeit about 7 years ago, when I was just taking a liking to the sport.

The fights vs Dempsey were his notable wins at heavyweight, of course. But you have to remember that Tunney was naturally a light heavyweight. You cannot judge only what he has done at Heavyweight like that's all he has done. You have to judge what he did in his era, vs what guys did in their other respective eras. Greb, Carpentier, and Gibbons just go unmentioned, and I guess that's the way you wanted to present your argument, which is fine; I deal with people who sugarcoat what they say, all day long, so I'm cool with it. I just think you should respect the fact that he fought and beat the best at the time and worked his way up to that weight to accomplish his goals, in doing so, defeating the best in the world on the way up. Plus, in Tunney's era these guys were fighting 6 times a year, way unlike what Ali and Foreman did. You know, I really wouldn't be suprised in the least to see Tunney completely school George Foreman if he fought a smart fight and kept George on the end of his jab, much like Moorer did for the majority of his fight with George. Because Tunney's jab was like a laser, IMO it was better than Moorer's by far. Anyways, that's another thread. Just understand that you're wrong for comparing opposition in separate eras, and that when you make an ATG list, take all facts into consideration, all facts, not just opposition, but all facts. The current ranking of the era, how many weight classes a guy went up, how his losses happened, who he ducked, etc. Comparing opposition to other opposition is not warranted when arguing or composing an atg list simply because it is not the criteria.

If you ask me, Hydro, this is about all you needed to say in that particular post of your's.

clearly you are the epitamy of intelligence

First of all it's hard to rate the all time greats, BUT this is what I have:

Ali fought the best, followed very closely by Louis.

Of Ali's 61 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 38 times (62.295%), winning 33 (54.098%) of them. He also fought a total of 49 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. That's a percentage of 80.3279%.

Of Louis's 72 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 34 times (47.887%), winning 31 (43.056%) of them. He also fought a total of 54 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 72 bouts. That's a percentage of 76.056%.

Ali fought boxers with an average pro record of 32.23 - 5.25 - 1.2, for an average winning percentage of 85.268595%

Louis fought boxers with an average pro record of 38.1 - 10.23 - 2.6 for an average winning percentage of 77.349364%

The fights vs Dempsey were his notable wins at heavyweight, of course. But you have to remember that Tunney was naturally a light heavyweight. You cannot judge only what he has done at Heavyweight like that's all he has done. You have to judge what he did in his era, vs what guys did in their other respective eras. Greb, Carpentier, and Gibbons just go unmentioned, and I guess that's the way you wanted to present your argument, which is fine; I deal with people who sugarcoat what they say, all day long, so I'm cool with it. I just think you should respect the fact that he fought and beat the best at the time and worked his way up to that weight to accomplish his goals, in doing so, defeating the best in the world on the way up. Plus, in Tunney's era these guys were fighting 6 times a year, way unlike what Ali and Foreman did. You know, I really wouldn't be suprised in the least to see Tunney completely school George Foreman if he fought a smart fight and kept George on the end of his jab, much like Moorer did for the majority of his fight with George. Because Tunney's jab was like a laser, IMO it was better than Moorer's by far. Anyways, that's another thread. Just understand that you're wrong for comparing opposition in separate eras, and that when you make an ATG list, take all facts into consideration, all facts, not just opposition, but all facts. The current ranking of the era, how many weight classes a guy went up, how his losses happened, who he ducked, etc. Comparing opposition to other opposition is not warranted when arguing or composing an atg list simply because it is not the criteria.

We're talking about his heavyweight ranking, not his all-time standing.

Why should what Tunnney did at light heavyweight affect his HEAVYWEIGHT ranking all-time?

Michael Spinks is one of the best light heavyweights ever, but should that come into play in ranking him all-time at HW? Same with Duran being one of the greatest 135 lb fighters ever, that's separate from his standing at welterweight, junior middle, etc...

If you're going to use it for his p4p ranking all-time or a greatest fighters list, that's one thing. I agree with it. But a fighter's accomplishments at a lower weight class affecting his all-time standing in another is a totally different story.

Here's something to think about. Who accomlished more in their first 5 years as a pro than Tyson?


19-0 19 KO's to start out with

youngest HW champ of all time at 20

Won the WBC, WBA, and IBF titles from three different champs

Scored a 91 second KO over the unbeaten lineal champ.

9 successfull title defenses

37-0 33 KO's

Your 100% correct, BUT here's some STATS that I have come up with that you might be interested in.

The average boxer Tyson fought in his 1st 37 bouts had an average of 21 bouts. The average record of those boxers were --------------------------------------------------W-16.6 - L-4.1 - D-0.3
Ali's opponents average record after 37 bouts was - W-34.3 - L-6.6 - D-1.5

Ali's 1st 37 opponents had an average of over 42 bouts, which is twice the experience of the boxers that fought Tyson in his 1st 37 bouts.

Tyson was only 23 when he got knocked out by Douglas in 1990, so he was still in his prime.

Tyson finished his career with - 22.3 - 3.5 - 0.3
Evander Holyfield right is at---- 28.94 - 3.9 - 0.5
Ali finished with ---------------32.23 - 5.25 - 1.2
Louis finished with ------------38.1 - 10.23 - 2.6
Marciano finished with ---------29.7 - 10.16 - 1.77

You just can't go by someones record, you have to included who they fought and how they did against them.

Gene Tunney is above Louis, Ali, and Foreman in my all time heavyweight rankings. Don't get this confused. I'd pick Foreman or Ali over Tunney in an actual bout, any day of the week. It's just that he accomplished way more than either three of those guys, the only one that would give Tunney a run for his money is Foreman because he came back and won the HW title as old as he did. But Tunney is still above the three of them.

now if I were to pick one heavyweight fighter who would have the best chance against any opponent it would be the ali that fought foreman. You understand, it wasn't just his skills that made him so great that night, it was also that the people in the country he was fighting in were with him in that ring, tehy really believed in him.

Greb was a lot smaller than Tunney. Their's no glory in beating up on a guy a lot smaller than you.

Carpantier was completely washed up by the time Tunney fought him.

Gibbons was a good win. However, these guys don't compare to Ali's opponents in Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Patterson, and Norton. Not even Louis' competition in Walcott, Schmeling, Baer, Conn, and Nova. Neither Foreman's competition in Frazier, Norton, Moorer, Lyle, or even Gregorio Peralta.

You saw him stick his arm out to measure the distance between him and Patterson to keep that distance, but he didn't throw any punches. His gloves were open, and he didn't stick it out that fast. They were not punches.
I saw 2 jabs nearly right when the fight begins! That's what I saw nothing is going to change my mind. I've watched it 4 times now (only the 1st round), and each time I see least 4 jabs from Ali in that round, either way you say it, that isn't enough proof for me to say Ali won a round without throwing punches.

Your 100% correct, BUT here's some STATS that I have come up with that you might be interested in.

The average boxer Tyson fought in his 1st 37 bouts had an average of 21 bouts. The average record of those boxers were --------------------------------------------------W-16.6 - L-4.1 - D-0.3
Ali's opponents average record after 37 bouts was - W-34.3 - L-6.6 - D-1.5

Ali's 1st 37 opponents had an average of over 42 bouts, which is twice the experience of the boxers that fought Tyson in his 1st 37 bouts.

Tyson was only 23 when he got knocked out by Douglas in 1990, so he was still in his prime.

Tyson finished his career with - 22.3 - 3.5 - 0.3
Evander Holyfield right is at---- 28.94 - 3.9 - 0.5
Ali finished with ---------------32.23 - 5.25 - 1.2
Louis finished with ------------38.1 - 10.23 - 2.6
Marciano finished with ---------29.7 - 10.16 - 1.77

You just can't go by someones record, you have to included who they fought and how they did against them.

Jesus Christ!!! That's some research you've done there mate, I would have just said that Tyson hasn't fought anywhere near the calibre of opponent that Ali has. Good post though.

Your 100% correct, BUT here's some STATS that I have come up with that you might be interested in.

The average boxer Tyson fought in his 1st 37 bouts had an average of 21 bouts. The average record of those boxers were --------------------------------------------------W-16.6 - L-4.1 - D-0.3
Ali's opponents average record after 37 bouts was - W-34.3 - L-6.6 - D-1.5

Ali's 1st 37 opponents had an average of over 42 bouts, which is twice the experience of the boxers that fought Tyson in his 1st 37 bouts.

Tyson was only 23 when he got knocked out by Douglas in 1990, so he was still in his prime.

Tyson finished his career with - 22.3 - 3.5 - 0.3
Evander Holyfield right is at---- 28.94 - 3.9 - 0.5
Ali finished with ---------------32.23 - 5.25 - 1.2
Louis finished with ------------38.1 - 10.23 - 2.6
Marciano finished with ---------29.7 - 10.16 - 1.77

You just can't go by someones record, you have to included who they fought and how they did against them.

first off i dont disagree with your post its good BUT u cant go off of age to determine a prime.and for the numbers wouldnt that say that ali might have fought alot more older fighters?

ali was a bum with overrated hand speed and an overrated chin. he fought nothing but old ppl that were already damaged goods. ppl mock tyson for beating holmes. but ali ****in fought archie moore! and floyd patterson! more damaged goods!

ali was a bum with overrated hand speed and an overrated chin. he fought nothing but old ppl that were already damaged goods. ppl mock tyson for beating holmes. but ali ****in fought archie moore! and floyd patterson! more damaged goods!

i hope this post is laced with sarcasm.

i hope this post is laced with sarcasm.

Versatile is an intelligent guy, of course it's filled with sarcasm.

Versatile is an intelligent guy, of course it's filled with sarcasm.

probably my top internent hate.

not being able to see sarcasm over the web.

First thing A couple of bums from my highschool knew about Ali were: Wasn´t he the greatest boxer ever ehhhh *drools*. Pep, Armstrong and Robinson might have been greater if you analize everything, but the average person doesn´t know them, and sees Ali as the greatest ever.

i was hoping butterfly would read it first:nonono: it didnt work. but yeah im ****in around of course

First thing A couple of bums from my highschool knew about Ali were: Wasn´t he the greatest boxer ever ehhhh *drools*. Pep, Armstrong and Robinson might have been greater if you analize everything, but the average person doesn´t know them, and sees Ali as the greatest ever.


Perhaps true greatness is how you are percieved and remembered by others. Some fighters do great in the ring but get little recognition. Others are well known through media or events but achieve very little in the ring.

Ali has the gift of being an extremely great fighter and also idolised by many through both boxing and as a figure. So in that sense, Ali outshines even Robinson and is the greatest.

Perhaps true greatness is how you are percieved and remembered by others. Some fighters do great in the ring but get little recognition. Others are well known through media or events but achieve very little in the ring.

Ali has the gift of being an extremely great fighter and also idolised by many through both boxing and as a figure. So in that sense, Ali outshines even Robinson and is the greatest.
Well you can take Ali's boxing away and still have a popular figure from the 70's like X, King, and ect. That's the only reason most people remember him, was because of what he was outside the ring. He was great in and out,....the greatest thought...hmm IMO no. Great none the less.

Jesus Christ!!! That's some research you've done there mate, I would have just said that Tyson hasn't fought anywhere near the calibre of opponent that Ali has. Good post though.

That's what I love to do, research. Thanks!


first off i dont disagree with your post its good BUT u cant go off of age to determine a prime.and for the numbers wouldnt that say that ali might have fought alot more older fighters?

Yes, I agree, but you have to look at their hold careers. No one gave Tyson a match until Douglas came along. Plus everytime Tyson got in trouble or hurt, he folded. He just didn't have the heart of a Ali or Marciano


ali was a bum with overrated hand speed and an overrated chin. he fought nothing but old ppl that were already damaged goods. ppl mock tyson for beating holmes. but ali ****in fought archie moore! and floyd patterson! more damaged goods!

Ali's left jab was timed faster then Sugar Ray Robinson's and he was hit by some of the hardest punchers in the history of boxing. Shavers, Foreman, Frazier, Mac Foster, Lyle, etc., and none of these guys knocked him out. Most boxing historians would agree that he had one of the best chins in boxing history.

Here's some of the people that have rated the top heavyweights.

All Time Heavyweight Ratings:

The best and the rest (http://www.theslot.com/ali/alltime.html)
1.Ali <o></o>
2.Louis<o></o>
3.Liston<o></o>
4.Foreman<o></o>
5.Tyson<o></o>
6.Tunney<o></o>
7.Dempsey<o></o>
8.Johnson<o></o>
9.Marciano<o></o>
10.Frazier<o></o>
11.Holmes
12.Jeffries<o></o>
13.Walcott<o></o>
14.Corbett<o></o>
15.Patterson<o></o>
16.Charles<o></o>
17.Schmeling<o></o>
18.Holyfield

New Page 2 (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/new_page_2.htm)
1 - Muhammad Ali. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/new_page_3.htm)<o></o>
2 - Larry Holmes. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/larry_holmes.htm) <o></o>
3 - Lennox Lewis. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/page_5_lennox.htm)<o></o>
4 - Evander Holyfield. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/page_4_evander.htm)<o></o>
5 - George Foreman. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/george_foreman.htm)
6 - Joe Louis. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/joe_louis.htm)
7 - Rocky Marciano. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/rocky_marciano.htm)<o></o>
8 - Gene Tunney. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/gene_tunney.htm) <o></o>>
9 - Mike Tyson. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/mike_tyson.htm)<o></o>
10 - Jack Dempsey. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/jack_dempsey.htm)<o></o>


The Top Ten Greatest Heavyweight Champions In History (http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=6087&more=1)<o></o>>

1. Muhammad Ali - Simply The Greatest, he fought every deserving contender in an era absolutely crammed with them. Also, earns points as the first man in history to win the title three times.

2. Jack Johnson - Way ahead of his time, he was a defensive master. Neither before or since has a heavyweight champion been so blessed in the ability of avoiding blows. Also had hurtful punching power.

3. Jack Dempsey - Revolutionised the sport with his savage fighting style. Also had an absolutely granite jaw.

4. Joe Louis - The longest reign in heavyweight history - an astonishing, never to be beaten, record 25 title defences. Pure one punch KO power, never wasted a shot.

5. Rocky Marciano - Retired unbeaten! Seemingly impossible to hurt. Also had endless stamina and vicious punching power.

6. George Foreman - The oldest heavyweight champion in history. Had freakish strength and thudding punch power. Also had more stamina in later career. Only ever stopped once, by the guy at the top of this list.

7. Larry Holmes - Vastly underrated, second only to Louis in number of title defences. Possibly possessed the finest jab in heavyweight history.

8. Sonny Liston - Had sheer brute force and power. Also a decent boxer, with a ramrod of a jab. Was at his peak in late 1950’s, an old man against Clay/Ali.

9. Joe Frazier - Owned probably the best left hook in heavyweight boxing. Also had amazing heart and an unlimited ability at taking punishment.

10. Evander Holyfield - Proved all his critics wrong when they said he wasn’t big enough. Used incredible guts and courage to defeat the huge Riddick Bowe. Also shocked the world by smashing Tyson.

<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
Cox's Corner All Time Heavyweight Ratings (http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html)
THE TOP 20 HEAVYWEIGHTS OF ALL TIME<o></o>
Joe Louis <o></o>
Muhammad Ali <o></o>
Jack Johnson <o></o>
George Foreman <o></o>
Larry Holmes <o></o>
Jack Dempsey <o></o>
Sonny Liston <o></o>
Jim Jeffries <o></o>
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson <o></o>
Rocky Marciano <o></o>
Joe Frazier <o></o>
Riddick Bowe <o></o>
Evander Holyfield <o></o>
Sam Langford
Gene Tunney <o></o>
James J. Corbett <o></o>
Ezzard Charles <o></o>
Jersey Joe Walcott <o></o>
Max Schmeling<o></o>
Here's Bert Sugar's list:

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Johnson
4. Dempsey
5. Tunney
6. Marciano
7. Charles
8. Foreman
9. Frazier
10. Holmes

Historians Rankings


(Please Note The Dates)


Nat Fleischer, Founder of Ring Magazine, 1958, 1971.

1.Jack Johnson
2.Jim Jeffries
3.Bob Fitzsimmons
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Jim Corbett
6.Joe Louis
7.Sam Langford
8.Gene Tunney
9.Max Schemling
10.Rocky Marciano


Charley Rose, 1968
1.Sam Langford
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Joe Louis
5.Jim Jeffries
6.Gene Tunney
7.Sam McVey
8.Rocky Marciano
9.Jim Corbett
10.Max Baer

World Boxing 1974 Readers Poll
1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Dempsey
3.Rocky Marciano
4.Jack Johnson
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Joe Frazier
7.Gene Tunney
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Sonny Liston
10.Ezzard Charles


Nat Loubet, 1975
1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Dempsey
3.Jim Jeffries
4.Jack Johnson
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Gene Tunney
7.Bob Fitzsimmons
8.James J. Corbett
9.Muhammad Ali
10.Joe Frazier



John Durant -Author of "The Heavyweight Champions" (1976)

1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Muhammad Ali
5.Gene Tunney
6.Joe Frazier
7.Jim Jeffries
8.James J. Corbett
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Max Schemling



Bill Brennan 1978 (Former President of the WBA)

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Jim Jeffries
7.Max Schemeling
8.Rocky Marciano
9.James J. Corebett
10.Bob Fitzsimmons



Big Book of Boxing Reader Poll, 1978

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Rocky Marciano
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Jack Johnson
6.Gene Tunney
7.Joe Frazier
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Ezzard Charles
10.Sonny Liston



Bert Sugar, 1991

1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson



Arthur Harris, 1992 (Nov 1992 Boxing Scene)

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Larry Holmes
8.Jersey Joe Walcott
9.Joe Frazier
10.Sonny Liston



Nigel Collins, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Evander Holyfield
4.Larry Holmes
5.George Foreman
6.Jack Johnson
7.Rocky Marciano
8.Joe Frazier
9.Jack Dempsey
10.Sonny Liston



Herbert Goldman, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Sonny Liston
4.Mike Tyson
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Johnson
7.Jack Dempsey
8.George Foreman
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Joe Frazier




Steve Farhood, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Johnson
4.Larry Holmes
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Jim Jeffries
8.Evander Holyfield
9.Mike Tyson
10.George Foreman



BBC Sports, 2004

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Johnson
4.Larry Holmes
5.Jack Dempsey
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Lennox Lewis
8.Mike Tyson
9.George Foreman
10.Evander Holyfield



IBRO Member Poll, 2005

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Larry Holmes
7.James Jeffries
8.George Foreman
9.Sonny Liston
10.Joe Frazier



Tracy Callis
Heavyweights:

1.Jim Jeffries
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Joe Louis
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Gene Tunney
7.Jim Corbett
8.Sonny Liston
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Larry Holmes<o></o>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
ALL-TIME POUND-FOR-POUND BOXERS

Max Kellerman:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Harry Greb
5. Sam Langford
6. Pernell Whitaker
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Benny Leonard
10. Ezzard Charles
10a. Jimmy Wilde
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]--><o></o>
Tony Atlas:<o></o>
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong<o></o>
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Benny Leonard
5. Sam Langford
6. Harry Greb
7. Mickey Walker
8. Roberto Duran
9. Gene Tunney
10. Carlos Monzon
10a. Joe Louis
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]--> <o></o>
ESPN.com:<o></o>
1. Muhammad Ali<o></o>
2. Alexis Arguello<o></o>
3. Henry Armstrong<o></o>
4. Sugar Ray Robinson<o></o>
5. Joe Louis<o></o>
6. Roy Jones Jr.<o></o>
7. Julio Cesar Chavez<o></o>
8. Abe Attel<o></o>
9. Ray Leonard<o></o>
10. Rocky Marciano<o></o>
10a. Wilfred Benitez<o></o>

Perhaps true greatness is how you are percieved and remembered by others. Some fighters do great in the ring but get little recognition. Others are well known through media or events but achieve very little in the ring.

Ali has the gift of being an extremely great fighter and also idolised by many through both boxing and as a figure. So in that sense, Ali outshines even Robinson and is the greatest.

Most people are idiots when it comes to boxing.

The casual fan may only know Roberto Duran for quitting or Michael Spinks for getting starched in 91 seconds by Mike Tyson, but us boxing geeks know (or should) know how great those guys were.

Most people are idiots when it comes to boxing.

The casual fan may only know Roberto Duran for quitting or Michael Spinks for getting starched in 91 seconds by Mike Tyson, but us boxing geeks know (or should) know how great those guys were.

Of Course my Hoarse!

Well you can take Ali's boxing away and still have a popular figure from the 70's like X, King, and ect. That's the only reason most people remember him, was because of what he was outside the ring. He was great in and out,....the greatest thought...hmm IMO no. Great none the less.

Who was the greatest in ur opinion? I ask because i respect ur opinion

O please hydro, foreman didn't beat enough contenders to be top 5? Who do u rank in the top 5 ahead of foreman, marciano and dempsey lol. Foreman has a much better resume than both of them and he actually fought black people unlike dempsey. Let's see who foreman beat.

frazier twice
norton
lyle
moorer
cooney
chuvalo twice
peralta
qawi
denis
rodriguez


Ya, i say thats a hell of a lot better resume than tyson, dempsey, and marciano. Foreman is top 5, live with it.

Who was the greatest in ur opinion? I ask because i respect ur opinion
The Greatest Of All Time IMO is Sugar Ray Robinson, when I watch him,...thats all I do watch him, you tend to forget theres another person in the ring. He was just perfection and a true example of the sweetest science. Power, speed, grace, rythm, accuracy, and combinations that never stopped till they fell. The sweetest of the sweet for me is the Orginal Sugar.

As for Heavy's, it depends on what day it is. It's mostly IMO Joe Louis. The man was a true hero outside the ring, and a master inside. Power, speed, combo's, and smarts that could figure any fighter out, and out of the fight. A close close close second is Ali. His natural speed for his weight is beyond great, along with accuracy, show boating, and a jab that made gaints fall. I am glad you respect my opinion, and I hope this answered your question.

Rest In Peace Willie Pep. (My number 2 P4P of all time)

ALI has to be top 3, just look at his resume for god's sakes.

The Greatest Of All Time IMO is Sugar Ray Robinson, when I watch him,...thats all I do watch him, you tend to forget theres another person in the ring. He was just perfection and a true example of the sweetest science. Power, speed, grace, rythm, accuracy, and combinations that never stopped till they fell. The sweetest of the sweet for me is the Orginal Sugar.

As for Heavy's, it depends on what day it is. It's mostly IMO Joe Louis. The man was a true hero outside the ring, and a master inside. Power, speed, combo's, and smarts that could figure any fighter out, and out of the fight. A close close close second is Ali. His natural speed for his weight is beyond great, along with accuracy, show boating, and a jab that made gaints fall. I am glad you respect my opinion, and I hope this answered your question.

Rest In Peace Willie Pep. (My number 2 P4P of all time)

Another good post, cheers

O please hydro, foreman didn't beat enough contenders to be top 5? Who do u rank in the top 5 ahead of foreman, marciano and dempsey lol. Foreman has a much better resume than both of them and he actually fought black people unlike dempsey. Let's see who foreman beat.

frazier twice
norton
lyle
moorer
cooney
chuvalo twice
peralta
qawi
denis
rodriguez


Ya, i say thats a hell of a lot better resume than tyson, dempsey, and marciano. Foreman is top 5, live with it.


1st of all, I really like George Foreman, BUT if you look at his overall record he fought only 11 top 10 contenders out of 81 bouts (13.58%), and won only 7 of them (8.64%). His average opponents record was 20.78-7.54-1.04, for a winning percentage of only 72.5399%.

Compare him with some others:

Of Ali's 61 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 38 times (62.295%), winning 33 (54.098%) of them. He also fought a total of 49 bouts that boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. That's a percentage of 80.3279%.

Of Louis's 72 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 34 times (47.887%), winning 31 (43.056%) of them. He also fought a total of 54 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 72 bouts. That's a percentage of 76.056%.

Of Rocky's 49 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them only 11 times (22.44898%), winning all 11 (22.44898%) of them. He also fought a total of 16 bouts that boxers were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 49 bouts. That's a percentage of only 32.653%.

Ali fought boxers with an average pro record of 32.23 - 5.25 - 1.2 for an average winning percentage of 85.268595%

Louis fought boxers with an average pro record of 38.1 - 10.23 - 2.6 for an average winning percentage of 77.349364%

Rocky fought boxers with an average pro record of 29.7 - 10.16 - 1.77 for an average winning percentage of 73.48%

1st of all, I really like George Foreman, BUT if you look at his overall record he fought only 11 top 10 contenders out of 81 bouts (13.58%), and won only 7 of them (8.64%). His average opponents record was 20.78-7.54-1.04, for a winning percentage of only 72.5399%.

Compare him with some others:

Of Ali's 61 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 38 times (62.295%), winning 33 (54.098%) of them. He also fought a total of 49 bouts that boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. That's a percentage of 80.3279%.

Of Louis's 72 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 34 times (47.887%), winning 31 (43.056%) of them. He also fought a total of 54 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 72 bouts. That's a percentage of 76.056%.

Of Rocky's 49 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them only 11 times (22.44898%), winning all 11 (22.44898%) of them. He also fought a total of 16 bouts that boxers were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 49 bouts. That's a percentage of only 32.653%.

Ali fought boxers with an average pro record of 32.23 - 5.25 - 1.2 for an average winning percentage of 85.268595%

Louis fought boxers with an average pro record of 38.1 - 10.23 - 2.6 for an average winning percentage of 77.349364%

Rocky fought boxers with an average pro record of 29.7 - 10.16 - 1.77 for an average winning percentage of 73.48%

Very interesting stuff man. Could you do some more about Tyson, Lennox Lewis and Holyfield?

Another good post, cheers
Thank you Robo. I try anyway =) .

Very interesting stuff man. Could you do some more about Tyson, Lennox Lewis and Holyfield?

Here's what I have, BUT I still have to go over it again.

Tyson had 36 out of 58 (62.06896%) bouts against top 10 contenders and his average opponent record was 22.27586-3.53448-0.293 (86.4597%).

Lewis had 26 out of 44 (59.09%) bouts against top 10 contenders and his average opponent record was 25.1-5.227-0.50 (82.24%).

Holyfield had 37 out of 50 (74.00%) bouts against top 10 contenders and his average opponent record was 28.94-3.9-0.52 (87.529976%).

Very interesting stuff man. Could you do some more about Tyson, Lennox Lewis and Holyfield?You should have asked Santa for a calculator so you could do it yourself.

Good legwork hhascup and props to you for taking the time and sharing that info.

You should have asked Santa for a calculator so you could do it yourself.

Good legwork hhascup and props to you for taking the time and sharing that info.
Agreed thanks for the time and info.

O please hydro, foreman didn't beat enough contenders to be top 5? Who do u rank in the top 5 ahead of foreman, marciano and dempsey lol. Foreman has a much better resume than both of them and he actually fought black people unlike dempsey. Let's see who foreman beat.

frazier twice
norton
lyle
moorer
cooney
chuvalo twice
peralta
qawi
denis
rodriguez


Ya, i say thats a hell of a lot better resume than tyson, dempsey, and marciano. Foreman is top 5, live with it.

LOL @ Cooney being a contender in 1990. He hadn't won a fight in over 3 years! His last fight was a KO loss to Michael Spinks in 1987.

LOL @ Qawi being a heavyweight contender too. He was a light heavyweight and cruiserweight champion. He did next to nothing at heavyweight, and had just been starched in 4 rounds by Holyfield before losing to Foreman.

Rodriguez was the only guy you can can all a contender that Foreman beat on the way up to his title shot against Holyfield, and even then, Rodriguez had just been stretched out in 2 by Holyfield.

Marciano was fed tough opposition relatively early, didn't lose a fight, and didn't hand-pick his opposition like Foreman did. Nor did he act disgracefully when he was a champion, like Foreman did in the 90s, but got a pass because he's an old man. He won more title fights than Foreman, too.

Can you tell me about this second time Foreman fought Chuvalo?

Foreman being top 5 is debatable, you can argue either way, but that wasn't even what I was mainly debating earlier.

It was in regards to Foreman being THE GREATEST HW EVER.

That's laughable.

LOL @ Cooney being a contender in 1990. He hadn't won a fight in over 3 years! His last fight was a KO loss to Michael Spinks in 1987.

LOL @ Qawi being a heavyweight contender too. He was a light heavyweight and cruiserweight champion. He did next to nothing at heavyweight, and had just been starched in 4 rounds by Holyfield before losing to Foreman.

Rodriguez was the only guy you can can all a contender that Foreman beat on the way up to his title shot against Holyfield, and even then, Rodriguez had just been stretched out in 2 by Holyfield.

Actually none of them were top 10 contenders when Foreman fought them. He only fought 11 top 10 contenders in his hold career. Chuvalo, Peralta (2nd bout), Frazier, Norton, Ali, Lyle, Frazier (again), Jimmy Young, Holyfield, Morrison and Moorer.

Marciano was fed tough opposition relatively early, didn't lose a fight, and didn't hand-pick his opposition like Foreman did. Nor did he act disgracefully when he was a champion, like Foreman did in the 90s, but got a pass because he's an old man. He won more title fights than Foreman, too.

Marciano fought 11 top 10 contenders as well. LaStarza, Rex Layne, Louis, Harry Mathews, Walcott (twice), LaStarza (again), Charles (twice), ****ell and Archie Moore.

Foreman also fought 27 bouts that his opponent was at one time or another, rated in the top 10 in the World.

Marciano fought 16 bouts that his opponent was at one time or another, rated in the top 10 in the World.

Foreman fought opponents that had an average record of 20.78-7.54-1.0 (72.5399)
Marciano fought opponents that had an average record of 29.7-10.16-1.7755 (73.48%)

Rodriguez was the only guy you can can all a contender that Foreman beat on the way up to his title shot against Holyfield, and even then, Rodriguez had just been stretched out in 2 by Holyfield.

Along with both Cooney & Qawi, Rodriguez was yet another opponent of Foreman's who wasn't ranked when he fought him, as illustrated here with Ring's rankings for July 1990 (the closest rating period I have from just before Foreman/Rodriguez);

1. Buster Douglas
2. Mike Tyson
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Michael Dokes
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. Francesco Damiani
7. Carl Williams
8. Razor Ruddock
9. Gary Mason
10. Tony Tucker

Heck, even Foreman wasn't a ranked contender again at the time of that fight.

Along with both Cooney & Qawi, Rodriguez was yet another opponent of Foreman's who wasn't ranked when he fought him, as illustrated here with Ring's rankings for July 1990 (the closest rating period I have from just before Foreman/Rodriguez);

1. Buster Douglas
2. Mike Tyson
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Michael Dokes
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. Francesco Damiani
7. Carl Williams
8. Razor Ruddock
9. Gary Mason
10. Tony Tucker

Heck, even Foreman wasn't a ranked contender again at the time of that fight.

Yeah that should be pretty accurate. The fight took place in June 1990 and if the issue is July 1990, then it's "as of"" date for the rankings are probably up to around April.

You should have asked Santa for a calculator so you could do it yourself.

Good legwork hhascup and props to you for taking the time and sharing that info.

ahh i should have asked you, you are known for getting all your ''knowledge'' from boxrec, aint that right trailer park boy.

Here's what I have, BUT I still have to go over it again.

Tyson had 36 out of 58 (62.06896%) bouts against top 10 contenders and his average opponent record was 22.27586-3.53448-0.293 (86.4597%).

Lewis had 26 out of 44 (59.09%) bouts against top 10 contenders and his average opponent record was 25.1-5.227-0.50 (82.24%).

Holyfield had 37 out of 50 (74.00%) bouts against top 10 contenders and his average opponent record was 28.94-3.9-0.52 (87.529976%).

Cool. But thats still only numbers. Just interesting.

ahh i should have asked you, you are known for getting all your ''knowledge'' from boxrec, aint that right trailer park boy.Thanks for the Christmas card. You're looking quite well these days.
http://www.grimmemennesker.dk/data/media/1/18.jpg

Thanks for the Christmas card. You're looking quite well these days.
http://www.grimmemennesker.dk/data/media/1/18.jpg

Oh are we going on the rants like old times, Smasher? well im not gonna start annymore against a 50+ year old trailer park perv. tell me, how long did it take to find that picture, and the pictures of men you posted around here? Just be carefull, Bubbles. you might get banned again:banana:

ahh i should have asked you, you are known for getting all your ''knowledge'' from boxrec, aint that right trailer park boy.

Most of my knowledge came way before "boxrec," in fact they contacted me to be one of their editors when they found out about what I know.

Oh are we going on the rants like old times, Smasher? well im not gonna start annymore against a 50+ year old trailer park perv. tell me, how long did it take to find that picture, and the pictures of men you posted around here? Just be carefull, Bubbles. you might get banned again:banana:I would have become a gynecologist if I wanted to spend my time talking to cunts.

1st of all, I really like George Foreman, BUT if you look at his overall record he fought only 11 top 10 contenders out of 81 bouts (13.58%), and won only 7 of them (8.64%). His average opponents record was 20.78-7.54-1.04, for a winning percentage of only 72.5399%.

Compare him with some others:

Of Ali's 61 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 38 times (62.295%), winning 33 (54.098%) of them. He also fought a total of 49 bouts that boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. That's a percentage of 80.3279%.

Of Louis's 72 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 34 times (47.887%), winning 31 (43.056%) of them. He also fought a total of 54 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 72 bouts. That's a percentage of 76.056%.

Of Rocky's 49 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them only 11 times (22.44898%), winning all 11 (22.44898%) of them. He also fought a total of 16 bouts that boxers were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 49 bouts. That's a percentage of only 32.653%.

Ali fought boxers with an average pro record of 32.23 - 5.25 - 1.2 for an average winning percentage of 85.268595%

Louis fought boxers with an average pro record of 38.1 - 10.23 - 2.6 for an average winning percentage of 77.349364%

Rocky fought boxers with an average pro record of 29.7 - 10.16 - 1.77 for an average winning percentage of 73.48%

You can do your numbers game as much as you want, maricano and louis would have lost to foreman. Take a look at rocky's 49 opponents, 36 of them are d level bums. Foreman has beat more b level fighters and his wins over undefeated norton, frazier, lyle and undefeated moorer is more impressive than rocky beating an old walcott, an old moore and an old louis.

You can do your numbers game as much as you want, maricano and louis would have lost to foreman. Take a look at rocky's 49 opponents, 36 of them are d level bums. Foreman has beat more b level fighters and his wins over undefeated norton, frazier, lyle and undefeated moorer is more impressive than rocky beating an old walcott, an old moore and an old louis.

I agree with him beating Marciano, BUT he would have had trouble beating Louis. Foreman had trouble with boxers that had good left jabs, such as Ali, Jimmy Young, etc.

If Rocky got the bout past the middle rounds, Rocky would of had a good chance too, BUT I really don't think he would have gotten that far.


Also, Norton had a 30-2-0 record and Lyle was 31-3-1.

I agree with him beating Marciano, BUT he would have had trouble beating Louis. Foreman had trouble with boxers that had good left jabs, such as Ali, Jimmy Young, etc.

If Rocky got the bout past the middle rounds, Rocky would of had a good chance too, BUT I really don't think he would have gotten that far.


Also, Norton had a 30-2-0 record and Lyle was 31-3-1.

Joe Louis struggled against journeyman fighters, ezzard charles kicked the living crap out of him, jersey joe walcott outboxed him twice and louis won the fight by getting gift decision. Joe louis gets praise due to his legacy, he isn't as good as they say brotha.

Foreman would have put pressure on him and hit the glass chin. Let's not forget that heavyweights back in those days were very small, so even if they were top 10, it doesnt mean the same.

Joe Louis struggled against journeyman fighters, ezzard charles kicked the living crap out of him, jersey joe walcott outboxed him twice and louis won the fight by getting gift decision. Joe louis gets praise due to his legacy, he isn't as good as they say brotha.

Foreman would have put pressure on him and hit the glass chin. Let's not forget that heavyweights back in those days were very small, so even if they were top 10, it doesnt mean the same.

Louis didn't box for several years because of the WAR, so when he did return to the ring, he was past his prime. When he fought Walcott and Charles, he was past his prime. As far as a glass chin goes, he was dropped but Only Max and Rocky kept him down. Baer had one of the hardest punches in boxing history and Louis distroyed him.

The only thing I will say is that Foreman hit harder then anyone in boxing history, with the possible exception of Earnie Shavers. So if he did hit Louis, Louis would be history.