If Ali was allowed to continue fighting and hadnt been stripped as champion, would Frazier still be regarded as the great fighter he is today?

Of course, assuming when they met Ali beat Frazier.

Frazier built his reputation on the victory over Ali, and his rise to become champion wen Ali was away.

you say if ali beat frazier well if this happened frazier would never have been champ and so he would not be considered as that great. but i think frazier could have beaten ali even if ali wasn't laid off. if frazier couldn't ali would keep the title untill he was too old to fight, untill 78 or so

you say if ali beat frazier well if this happened frazier would never have been champ and so he would not be considered as that great. but i think frazier could have beaten ali even if ali wasn't laid off. if frazier couldn't ali would keep the title untill he was too old to fight, untill 78 or so

Yeah, and he would have broken Rcoky's record as well.

I've never regarded Frazier as great.

He's not.

ONE of the greats, maybe, maybe not. But he was a ''great'' fighter for sure.

And yes, Frazier would have beat Ali even if Ali hadnt been stripped.

Yeah, and he would have broken Rcoky's record as well.

I doubt it...this is all speculation...

Considering that Ali rarely ever performed at his peak...(just look at how many fights he would go into without fully preparing) somebody was bound to catch him and especially in the 70's...You had contenders that even Ali would have to be at his best to beat...Ken Norton, Jimmy Young, George Foreman (especially).....

If Ali hadn't been laid off I could see Foreman and/or Frazier putting him away...especially since I feel if Ali had tried to dance with Foreman, Ali would have been put away....

ONE of the greats, maybe, maybe not. But he was a ''great'' fighter for sure.

And yes, Frazier would have beat Ali even if Ali hadnt been stripped.

I can't go along with that theory.

3 years out of the ring would diminish the talents of ANY fighter in ANY era.

I can't go along with that theory.

3 years out of the ring would diminish the talents of ANY fighter in ANY era.

Sure. but Frazier would have beat Ali atleast once, no matter what.

Sure. but Frazier would have beat Ali atleast once, no matter what.


And probably Norton too...

Sure. but Frazier would have beat Ali atleast once, no matter what.

I can't agree with that.

You name me one fighter that could take a 3 year lay-off (when they are at their prime), and come back to be the same fighter?

It's not possible IMO.

If Ali was allowed to continue fighting and hadnt been stripped as champion, would Frazier still be regarded as the great fighter he is today?

Of course, assuming when they met Ali beat Frazier.

Frazier built his reputation on the victory over Ali, and his rise to become champion wen Ali was away.


I'd have to say if Ali beat him the first time, which is far from a given even with Ali never being forced into exile, Frazier would have eventually beaten him in a rematch. However, if Frazier never beat Ali, who would have? I'd have to say Frazier would give Ali enough merry-hell that he'd be considered one of the greatest fighters never to win the title. Greatness is greatness, though his win over Ali certainly helped secure his place in the pantheon.

I can't agree with that.

You name me one fighter that could take a 3 year lay-off (when they are at their prime), and come back to be the same fighter?

It's not possible IMO.


I aint denying the fact that Ali wasn't the same after his lay off, i just purely believe that Frazier was a guy that had the will and style to beat any version of Ali, atleast once.
You shouldn't say things like, Its not possible(Maybe you meant something diffirent with that) because Ali wasn't unbeatable, and the ones that claim that are butterfly's.

Frazier really benefited from Ali's exile: he was able to become Champion...when he fought Ali, Ali wasn't the same fighter: his ability to dance was not the same, his speed was not the same, and his style was based on reflexes/moving/speed. If Ali wasn't able to take the punishment he was able to take, he would of been KTFO in his return.

Frazier wasn't that fast moving forward, not like a Dempsey or a Tyson




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I think everybody should really take a look at Ali's last few fights before he went into exile.


Frazier really benefited from Ali's exile: he was able to become Champion...when he fought Ali, Ali wasn't the same fighter: his ability to dance was not the same, his speed was not the same, and his style was based on reflexes/moving/speed. If Ali wasn't able to take the punishment he was able to take, he would of been KTFO in his return.

Frazier wasn't that fast moving forward, not like a Dempsey or a Tyson




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Abe, there's no doubt in my mind that Ali's legs and timing weren't the same after the layoff, to say nothing of how brittle his hands became. However, I do think that Joe had the style to have possibly beaten Ali in '68 or '69 without the layoff......or it could very well have been divine providence jumping in and saying, "Wait a minute. We've got some really good, even great heavyweights coming up here in the seventies and we've got this unbeatable fighter about to meet them. That's just not fair, lets influence the minds of the draft board so as to change the qualification status for the draft. Sure, that'll cause a lot of young men to be drafted who wouldn't have; but here's teh positive: there will be a backlash from the youth of America, this kid with all this physical talent and verbosity will become an icon among those youth in the meantime; his physical skills will declline like and put him closer to the level of this upcoming great era of heavyweights.

Brilliant!".....and they go out and have a Guiness.

or it could very well have been divine providence jumping in and saying, "Wait a minute. We've got some really good, even great heavyweights coming up here in the seventies and we've got this unbeatable fighter about to meet them. That's just not fair, lets influence the minds of the draft board so as to change the qualification status for the draft. Sure, that'll cause a lot of young men to be drafted who wouldn't have; but here's teh positive: there will be a backlash from the youth of America, this kid with all this physical talent and verbosity will become an icon among those youth in the meantime; his physical skills will declline like and put him closer to the level of this upcoming great era of heavyweights










??? WTF??? A Conspiracy?

By Nature or the Government? LOL

Not sure what you are saying

??? WTF??? A Conspiracy?

By Nature or the Government? LOL

Not sure what you are saying


It's early in the morning here and I'm only on my second cup of coffee. lol!!!

It's early in the morning here and I'm only on my second cup of coffee. lol!!!

LOL, I thought you were going crazy...I think you need a break from the computer, and so do I...end of '06 is coming, will not do this as much next year.:beerchug:

LOL, I thought you were going crazy...I think you need a break from the computer, and so do I...end of '06 is coming, will not do this as much next year.:beerchug:

..If I get the promotion I'm seeking....or if I don't, I probably won't be on as much either; but if I'm making more money....well, I can get a home computer and check out things at a different time, anyway.

Merry Christmas, Happy Haunika (sp)...and Happy New Year..early. :D

..If I get the promotion I'm seeking....or if I don't, I probably won't be on as much either; but if I'm making more money....well, I can get a home computer and check out things at a different time, anyway.

Merry Christmas, Happy Haunika (sp)...and Happy New Year..early. :D

You too, and everybody

I will not have time to be on the forums next year because of what I am trying to get into, but during big fights will try to be on here...Although I here there can be lots of down time in what I am trying to do, so...No, have to do something more productive or I will go :crazy: :D

You too, and everybody

I will not have time to be on the forums next year because of what I am trying to get into, but during big fights will try to be on here...Although I here there can be lots of down time in what I am trying to do, so...No, have to do something more productive or I will go :crazy: :D

I understand you more than you know....dito.

I understand you more than you know....dito.

Really? you KGB, C.I.A.?

What do you know?

LOL

Really? you KGB?

LOL!!! Hardly. I understand the need to do something more productive than I am currently. I'm tired of spinning my wheels with no apparent progress. I'm the type of person who needs to feel he's making a difference or moving forward, growing, etc.

I haven't felt like that in a while.

LOL!!! Hardly. I understand the need to do something more productive than I am currently. I'm tired of spinning my wheels with no apparent progress. I'm the type of person who needs to feel he's making a difference or moving forward, growing, etc.

I haven't felt like that in a while.

Exactly...

Sure. but Frazier would have beat Ali atleast once, no matter what.

Yeah, and Buster Douglass would have always ko'd Tyson, even the Kevin Rooney version.

Yeah, and Buster Douglass would have always ko'd Tyson, even the Kevin Rooney version.

Hey, i'll agree if you agree with me. Wich wont happen in a Trillion years.

on that day busters heart and style made him a threat to tyson at any age

frasier also had the heart and style tpo give ali big problems

Hey, i'll agree if you agree with me. Wich wont happen in a Trillion years.

Number one, ALi wasn't even 100% for that fight. He absorbed a tremendous body beating against Bonavena, and hadn't fully healed from that, so it made it easier for Frazier to wear him down.

Ali always did better in rematches. Frazier of 71' would give any Ali tremendous trouble and it's easy to picture him winning the first fight of their encounters. Just like Norton, his style gave Ali stacks of problems.

Ali always did better in rematches. Frazier of 71' would give any Ali tremendous trouble and it's easy to picture him winning the first fight of their encounters. Just like Norton, his style gave Ali stacks of problems.

Norton only gave him trouble when Ali wasn't moving. A prime Ali constantly moved. I see Ali winning a lopsided decision against Norton in his prime.

Number one, ALi wasn't even 100% for that fight. He absorbed a tremendous body beating against Bonavena, and hadn't fully healed from that, so it made it easier for Frazier to wear him down.

Number two, Tyson wasn't 100% for that fight either. You agree with that yourself. And hell, what does Tyson even have to do with this? Is that some kind of desperate attempt to turn my opinion around and make it seem like you're winning the argument?
Sheez. You suck.

Frazier wasn't fast moving forward? Are you kidding?

Number two, Tyson wasn't 100% for that fight either. You agree with that yourself. And hell, what does Tyson even have to do with this? Is that some kind of desperate attempt to turn my opinion around and make it seem like you're winning the argument?
Sheez. You suck.

I just saying that saying that it was the peak Ali that fought Frazier is just as dumb (probably dumber) as saying that it was the peak Tyson that fought Douglass.

I just saying that saying that it was the peak Ali that fought Frazier is just as dumb (probably dumber) as saying that it was the peak Tyson that fought Douglass.

Ali definately wasn't at his peak when he fought Frazier in 71', but he was still very good. If there were positive developments in Ali between 67 and the first Frazier fight (i don't believe there were any) they were definately not enough to offset the loss in athleticism that occured during his layoff. I would pick Frazier in the first fight over any version of Ali, the loss in the first fight would be the learning curve Ali needed to be sucessful in the latter fights and develop a respect for Joe as a fighter.

Ali definately wasn't at his peak when he fought Frazier in 71', but he was still very good. If there were positive developments in Ali between 67 and the first Frazier fight (i don't believe there were any) they were definately not enough to offset the loss in athleticism that occured during his layoff. I would pick Frazier in the first fight over any version of Ali, the loss in the first fight would be the learning curve Ali needed to be sucessful in the latter fights and develop a respect for Joe as a fighter.

I disagree. A prime Ali had great stamina, IMO better than Frazier's and his speed would dictate the fight. His punches were also more accurate than the '71 Ali. Ali took the early rounds from Frazier, but faded, because he wasn't in top condition, plus the extra loss in footspeed allowed Frazier to close the gap. I can see Ali pulling off a very close UD in the first fight, and then Ali figures him out and any rematches would be in a wider margin.

Yeah, and he would have broken Rcoky's record as well.

quite possible.....