By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling topics such as Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Conor McGregor, ranking former three division champion Shane Mosley, Lomachnko vs. Rigondeaux, catch-weight bouts in boxing, and more.
I just read your p4p list. It's a good list but I think you should have pacman in the top 10. I'd probably put him in the top 5. He's a 10 division world champion ( I know he only actually won 8 but I just threw he the other 2 divisions he skipped ). I know there are lots of divisions today but that stat alone is incredible. There'll always be disagreements in these lists anyway. I'm a kickboxer but I've started going to a boxing gym so I copied and pasted your list and the strong points of these great figjters. I'll study these guys like joe louis's punching technique on you tube and see if I can work on these guys strengths in the gym. I'll think up of a good question for you for your post ans send it in. Anyway another great article man. Keep it up.
Bread’s Response: Studying Joe Louis’s punch technique and delivery is definitely something you want to do. He throws every punch perfect. But don’t try to emulate him. Your stance and body structure may be different than his. Just observe him and see what you can pick up.
I think very highly of Manny. I also feel like he could have won titles at 115 and 118 which would be just unreal to think about. But he is no longer in my top 10 P4P. I know it’s subjective and yes he most likely beat Jeff Horn but if you’re objective you should realize that he is not among the 10 best fighters in the world anymore. I’m not sure if he’s among the 5 best in his weight division. Keith Thurman and Erol Spence would probably beat him now. Shawn Porter and Danny Garcia have at minimum a 50/50 chance. If Terence Crawford moves up there is another person on the list that Manny couldn’t beat. As much as I respect Manny, Ino longer think he’s top 10 P4P. I think he struggles again with Horn in the rematch.
How goes it sir?
I noticed a few things in the Pac/Horn fight from watching at home.
1. The perspective of the fight seemed very different from the HBO Manny fights. ESPN cameras and natural lighting provided a more live feeling. This made it look rough and ugly which really favored the type of fight Horn was pushing in my perspective. Do you see fights get a different perspective depending on network and lightning?
2. Does boxing outside compared to indoors add another intangible to a Fighters performance?
Bread’s Response: I think you are correct. I notice that fights at the Stub Hub Center have a different feel too. Especially when the sun is still out.
I think the air is different outside than it is inside and the temperature is not as controlled. It’s definitely something you want to prepare for.
Big fan of your column I love your insight. I did find it interesting that Greb didn't at least make your honorable mention for your P4p. I know there is no viewable fight footage but the people he beat were incredible. I do happen to know there is Greb fight footage but the guy won't release it. Hope all is well.
P. S. Fritzie Zivic was my great uncle. He was a character
Bread’s Response: I made a disclaimer at the beginning of the list that Greb, Sam Langford and Joe Gans are all most likely top 10 p4p ever. But I would only put fighters in there that I saw fight a whole fight.
Greb’s resume is in the argument for the best ever. He was absolutely brutal middleweight and lightheavyweight.
Whoever you know that has Greb footage tell him that Breadman said he was must be a very rich man. Greb’s footage would be worth millions at this point. It’s so valuable that if it’s in good condition the assessment on Greb could change who is considered the best fighter ever. Think about that.
Marciano’s battle against the ‘Cincinnati Cobra’ is legitimate as far as I’m concerned – Marciano and Ezzard Charles were about the same age.
He gets little credit from me for: Jersey Joe Walcott who was 9 years older, Joe Louis who was also 9 years older, or Archie Moore who was 10 years older and when they fought Moore was 42 years old. The other names on Marciano’s record were primarily journeymen.
After the Moore fight there was talk about Marciano facing the up and coming Floyd Patterson, but Marciano retired instead.
Floyd is deceptively strong and I get the impression that McGregor is underestimating this and Floyd’s fight game in-general. His apparently successful sparring against Malignaggi has given him (McGregor) a false sense of things IMHO.
Floyd is not giving Team McGregor nothing to work with so they’re jumping to the wrong conclusion thinking that Floyd is ‘scared sh*tless’, I hear them saying this! Confidence is a great thing, but McGregor’s is close to overconfidence.
Floyd doesn’t necessarily have to KO McGregor to silence his doubters, he can dominate the whole 12 rounds, or McGregor can retire on his stool – which is what I think will be the case. Floyd has a quiet confidence about his that I like. I also like Floyd’s balance with his training and his everyday life.
Floyd’s changed his workout some from what I could tell during his media day compared to past media days: no Roger Mayweather working the mitts, more double-end bag work for punching accuracy, a gumdrop bag for uppercuts, a larger heavybag for power punching.
McGregor comes across as kind of mature for 29 years of age, but at times you can see his immaturity.
I also noticed McGregor was kind of out-of-breath while doing his media day workout, he could barely talk after punching the bags-could he be overtrained?
Bread’s Response: Marciano retired at an opportune time. But he didn’t come back and cherry pick so…..I would have liked to see if he could have held off Floyd Patterson, Cleveland Williams and Sonny Liston. But here is the thing. Any fighter that retires on top will have someone saying who was waiting in the wings to beat them.
We will disagree on Walcott and Moore. We will agree on Charles and Louis. Jersey Joe Walcott had just defeated Ezzard Charles for the heavyweight title. He knocked him out in one of the greatest knockouts ever. Then he beat him again in a rematch. Regardless of his age he was the lineal heavyweight champion of the world. You can’t disregard Marciano’s fight with Walcott and regard his fight with Charles when he beat Walcott coming off of Walcott’s victories over Charles. That doesn’t make much sense to me.
Archie Moore was still a great fighter in his late 30s. He wasn’t the prime killer but he was still top shelf. Sort of how Wlad Klitschko and Bernard Hopkins operated around the same time. He was on one of his best career runs when he faced Marciano. It’s a little careless to be dismissive of the age. In fact Moore went on 3 years later to make his most famous title defense vs Yvonne Durelle. So he couldn’t have been shot in 1955 doing what he did to Durelle in 1958. We give Anthony Joshua credit for beating Wlad Klitscho right… If history remembers Moore at the best fighter ever over 40, and Marciano beat him at 39….Let’s be fair to Marciano.
Joe Louis was a corpse. That’s not up for debate.
Floyd Mayweather is an expert in making his opponent’s think he’s scared of them. He does it all the time and because of that they fight the fight he wants them to fight. The best case of this was against Shane Mosley. Mosley thought that up until the 3rd round of their fight. Mosley cracked Floyd in the 2nd. Then something happened. Floyd turned into a dragon and took the fight out of Mosley. In this case no one is giving McGregor much of a chance. I don’t believe McGregor thinks that Floyd is scared of him…
I have also noticed we haven’t seen much of Floyd on the pads. But Floyd is smart he could be doing the pads off camera. Even if Roger isn’t around his dad is also a great pad man.
I can’t tell if McGregor is overtrained or not. I don’t know his body language and look enough to be able to make that assessment.
I also don’t want to judge the sparring between him and Paulie Malignaggi. If they sparred 12 rounds and we only got to see 30 seconds it makes no sense to judge. All I can tell from that is Connor has a sneaky hard straight left hand but I already knew that.
Greetings and Salutations to you the mighty breadman. Where do you stand on the whole lomachenko v rigondeaux debate? Who exactly is to blame for this fight not happening , kind regards Neds
Bread’s Response: I’m hearing the fight may happen in December. Let’s all cross our fingers. The display of greatness that will shown if they ever met in the ring will be an all time spectacle in my opinion.
With Shane Mosley’s recent retirement where do you rank him historically? I know you were hesitant to condemn Juan Manuel Marquez for alleged PED use but Mosley is an admitted user. I have serious questions about his legacy considering I don’t believe the first time he used was against Oscar De La Hoya who he already beat. Let’s remember he was never actually caught so he could have been using prior to the De la Hoya rematch and long after it. Does he get in the Hall of Fame because of this?
Bread’s Response: Aw man. You’re rough. I rank Mosley as a contemporary great. Meaning he’s one of the better fighters of the last two decades but not exactly an all time great like Mayweather, Pacquiao, Hopkins and Marquez who competed during the same time span.
I think Mosley gets in the Hall of Fame on the first ballot. Boxing is not like baseball.
I’m not going to pick his legacy apart and try to speculate what fights he used PEDs in and what fights he didn’t at this moment. He admitted to what he admitted to and his career is over now. The writers who get to vote on the Hall of Fame will decide where he belongs.
I’ve been thinking about fighters who have benefited from “catchweights” and won big fights because of them. Andre Ward shrunk Chad Dawson down and won a huge legacy fight. Pacquiao did to everyone in all of his big fights. Canelo is doing it now. I think fighters should be called on this. These guys are building their legacies on making up weight divisions. What are your thoughts on catchweights and how do they affect the outcome of fights?
Bread’s Response: I think you’re misguided. Catchweights have been around forever. They didn’t just start. Look at some of the weights for Henry Armstrong’s welterweight title fights. Let me school on you on some things.
First off Andre Ward didn’t fight Chad Dawson at a catchweight. He fought him at 168lbs which is a real weight division. I was in Atlantic City when Chad Dawson called Andre Ward out after he beat Bernard Hopkins. I still can’t understand why Dawson who at the time was the lineal champion at 175, offered to move down. Dawson was on HBO and Ward was over at Showtime fighting in the Super 6. Dawson had been champion longer and up until that point had a better resume. He just sort of forfeited his A side privilege. He went to Ward’s hometown, took less money and fought him at his weight. That may have been the most bizarre move I have ever witnessed. Nevertheless it wasn’t a catchweight fight. Dawson just moved down to 168 which is a weight division.
Here is the thing about catchweight fights. The guy who is moving down is not always the one at the disadvantage. And until one of your favorite fighter’s exercises his catchweight power, people love to call the kettle black. The truth is when big fights need to get made by fighters far apart in weight, the A side fighters often uses his advantage and makes it a catchweight.
Let’s talk about them. I will connect the dots for you guys and show you some things….Manny Pacquiao used to get killed by Floyd Mayweather and Miguel Cotto fans about catchweights. But when Mayweather and Cotto decided to A side a few catchweights then catchweights became no big deal with the same fans and media members…
Pacquiao fought Oscar De La Hoya at welterweight. That wasn’t a catchweight. Oscar called out a lightweight and met him at 147. In my opinion that was a fair fight. De La Hoya’s fans complained afterwards but none of them complained when Bernard Hopkins inexplicably came in at 156lbs for his fight with De la Hoya….They also didn’t complain when Oscar fought Steve Forbes at 150 in the fight prior to the Pacman fight…Hmmm…
Pacquiao fought Cotto at 145. I never thought it was a big deal. Cotto was not a huge welterweight and he just came in at 146lbs for his fight with Clottey. Cotto’s fans thought it was a big deal until Cotto decided to make Sergio Martinez and Daniel Geale come in light for middleweight fights…..Pac gets the rap for the catchweight fights but I haven’t seen him shrink a big guy down except Margarito at 150. Marquez, Barrera, Morales, Mosely, Clottey, Bradley and Vargas were fought at comfortable weights.
Floyd Mayweather’s fans used to discredit Pacquiao’s achievements but they don’t discredit Mayweather’s catchweight victories over Marquez and Canelo… If Pac drained Cotto and made him come in at 145 then is it fair to say Floyd drained Canelo when he made him come in at 152? See how that goes? #befair
Canelo’s fans don’t like that he was supposedly “drained” vs Mayweather but Canelo has fought in 7 catchweight fights. In some he has been the bigger man, other’s the smaller but the only time it has not benefited him was vs Mayweather. You see where I am going? #befair
I can really keep connecting the dots. But here is the thing. Sometimes the bigger man who can get a little lower than his divisions max weight benefits from these catchweights. Sometimes the smaller man benefits. Sometimes it’s just a sword fighting contest on who is the A side and who has the power. I will give examples of all.
When the bigger guy benefited from moving down. Roy Jones fought Felix Trinidad at 170. Jones was a big middleweight but he wasn’t a huge lightheavyweight. So he could always make the low 170s. If Trinidad would have clipped Jones everyone would have said Jones was weight drained. But Jones was just way too big for Tito who was fat at 170. Bernard Hopkins fought Winky Wright and Kelly Pavlik at 170lbs. Wright and Pavlik just weren’t effective that high up… Terry Norris came in at 149 in his fight vs Meldrick Taylor. But he was able to rehydrate and really hurt the much smaller Taylor.
When the smaller guy benefits. Canelo vs Chavez. Chavez just can’t make anything close to 160 and be effective. Floyd vs Canelo. Canelo could barely stand at the weigh in. There is a reason why he loves fighting junior middleweights at 155lbs.
At the end of the day if a fighter can’t safely make a weight then he better be careful signing the contract. And the fans and media have to stop waiting until after the result to make their case. If the bigger guy moving down wins they say he rehydrated too high and had the advantages. The smaller guy wins they say, he was weight drained. It’s an argument a subjective bias person could never lose.
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