By Stephen 'Breadman' Edwards
The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen 'Breadman' Edward discussing the hotly contested outcome between Sergey Kovalev and Andre Ward from last Saturday night, the battle of their trainers, Ward being a Hall of Fame fighter, and more.
I saw your pick on Twitter and ESPN and it was spot on. “Ward in a hotly contested fight where he gets knocked down.” One fan even tried to say you were on the fence but that fence was perfect. I thought Kovalev won but nevertheless good pick. I need your breakdown of the fight. Tell me did the judges overcompensate for Ward. Did anything surprise you? What happened in the 10th round scoring? Why was Kovalev so effective? And did you see Paulie Malignaggi scorecards? He had Ward winning like 8 or 9 rounds. Paulie is abusing his platform with that scorecard.
Bread’s Response: Thanks man I try my best. Ok here goes….
I never toe the line with a fight pick. I give my honest prediction. Some times you hit it and sometimes you don’t. I’m going to let you in on a secret. Most people will argue about scoring a fight but you will see them with drinks in their hands, on their cell phones while action is going on and then they get on social media and argue. I will tell the truth I don’t score fights with a pen and paper when I’m home watching out of enjoyment. Some fights are easy to score with the naked eye and calculate but then there are fights like this one where if you don’t score it properly you will get it wrong.
A prominent boxing figure once told me he scored a fight with his naked eye and got caught up in the event. He went on record and said whom he thought won. Then he scored it with a pen and paper and was off by 2 points and gave it to the WRONG person. So this is a slippery slope. I will admit it happened to me before also…
Naked eye I could see 3 scenarios. Kovalev 7 rounds to Ward’s 5. Which is 115-112 Kovalev because of the knockdown. Kovalev 6 rounds to Ward’s 6. Which is 114-113 Kovalev because of the knockdown. Or Ward 7 rounds to Kovalev’s 5, which is 114-113 Andre Ward. All three scenarios are in the ballpark.
I don’t know if the judges overcompensated. And rescoring the fight contaminates your judgment. It was really a close hotly contested fight. I saw 3 swing rounds that both fighters could have won.
Yes a few things surprised me. Going into the fight I knew Kovalev was the bigger puncher. But I thought Ward would be physically stronger. Kovalev was able to tie Ward up and walk him backwards in the clinches. It negated a lot of Andre’s inside attack early. That surprised me. I have never seen Ward not be the stronger man physically.
I also wondered who was actually the faster fighter. Going by what I saw I would say it’s a push, even money with Kovalev having more outside boxing range.
The last thing that surprised me was Kovalev’s lack of body punching. I was really surprised he didn’t go to the body more.
Kovalev was effective because he’s a great fighter. Make no mistake about it. Both Kovalev and Ward are HOF level talents and they put on a show. They showed great skill and character.
Cliff Rold who is the best living boxing historian in my opinion made me aware of the 10th round scoring. Again I didn’t score the fight so as the scores were being announced I was in suspense. But I do remember the 10th round because I thought Ward was on a roll and the 10th stopped his momentum a little bit. I was surprised to find out that all 3 judges scored the 10th for Ward… But to be fair I think fans and media score carry over rounds. We also have to talk about Round 3. Round 3 was a solid round for Ward. Because of the knockdown in round 2 most thought Kovalev won round 3 also. But if you look at that round close you could make a case for Ward. It was a pivotal swing round. Kovalev did not sweep the 1st half of the fight and Ward didn’t sweep the 2nd half. Again momentum and who won the previous round should not be factored in when scoring a round. There is a reason judges hand in the scorecards after each round.
I watched the HBO telecast. I didn’t see Paulie’s scorecard so I can’t speak on it. I will say he’s usually pretty sharp on assessing and scoring fights.
There was an internal battle of trainers in this fight. Who do you think won?
Bread’s Response: I think Hunter and Jackson are both great trainers. But I will say Hunter won. The job Hunter did getting his fighter back in the fight was remarkable. Let’s consider some things.
After seeing them in a ring together, in my opinion Ward is outgunned vs Kovalev physically. Kovalev is the bigger puncher, he’s just as fast if not faster. He’s rangier as far as fighting from a distance. His right hand is considerably better and their jab hands are about even. Ward is the better infighter but Kovalev seems stronger. So he was able to tie him up and negate the infighting until late in the fight. To top that all off, Kovalev’s punches appear to hurt Ward more than Ward’s punches hurt Kovalev. Andre Ward’s most noticeable advantages over Kovalev is his staying power and mental stamina. So his coach catered to those things.
Now let’s look at the scenario. Virgil Hunter was coaching a fighter who was down huge on the scorecards. Anywhere between 5 to 7 points going into the second half of the fight depending on whom you ask. Andre Ward is a great fighter. A Hall of Fame fighter who could one day become an all time great. But he’s not a dynamic offensive fighter. In history when a fighter is down big on the scorecards and make great comebacks they are usually huge punchers or dynamic offensively. Thess traits allow them to turn the fight around in an instance.
Ray Leonard vs Tommy Hearns. Joe Louis vs Billy Conn. Archie Moore vs Yvonne Durrell. Rocky Marciano vs Joe Walcott. Juan Manuel Marquez vs Manny Pacquiao. George Foreman vs Michael Moorer In elite level match ups the comebacking fighter usually fits the bill of a huge puncher or offensive dynamo. Ward is a great all around fighter and is technically brilliant but he’s not what you would consider great offensively. This is what makes his comeback so special.
Ward’s great advantage is his mental stamina. His ability to never lose form during a struggle. This comes from years and years of concentration drills. Hours and hours of shadowboxing and not losing form. Kovalev looked a little disorganized down the stretch. Ward was steadfast. Elbows in, feet up under him, eyes on the target. Looking to be in control… All of these small things count.
Back to Hunter. I’m going to use football, baseball and basketball analogies. Hunter’s team was down big early in a game. But his basketball team only averages about 90 points/game and they aren’t a 3 point shooting team. They play half court basketball. So they have to chip back in it one moment at a time. It’s actually the most difficult scenario Hunter could have been in and he excelled. Or his football team is a grind it out running team who never throws the long ball. And he’s down 4 touchdowns going into the 2nd half. Or try his baseball team who has no homerun hitters down 5 runs in the 4th inning.
Hunter keeping Ward in the fight was one of the more remarkable coaching jobs I have ever witnessed. He was inspiring that young man as well as coaching him technically. He was giving him hope that there was light at the end of the tunnel. The controversial decision is overshadowing one of the great character performances from both fighter and trainer in a long time.
Andre Ward should also be commended for never wavering. It takes Holyfield, Saad Muhammad and Marquez like character to push through what he pushed through. And he did it with out being the puncher that those guys were. Unbelievable character that man has.
You said in the past that the winner of this fight should be #1 pound for pound and should walk straight into the Hall of Fame. Do you still feel that way?
Bread’s Response: I thought Ward was a HOF before the fight. I still feel he is. I also think Kovalev showed he’s a HOF level talent and with 8 title defenses he should be considered. He was every bit as good as Ward on the big stage they shared. I was impressed by both guys. This was high level stuff with not a lot separating them.
The p4p debate will probably rage on which is a good thing for boxing. Roman Gonzales seems to be the #1 guy and I’m a huge fan of his. But I think he’s getting his props too late in his career. 3 years ago he was money in the bank and was operating at a higher level than he is now. Now I see a great fighter but one who is struggling. He may be still in his prime but he’s not at his peak. I still don’t know who won his fight vs Cuadras.
Gonzales getting his decision over Cuadras is no different than Ward getting his over Kovalev….Then you have to ask yourself which fighter is better Kovalev or Cuadras….
Can a close fight be a robbery? I hear people saying a close fight can’t be a robbery but I think otherwise?
Bread’s Response: Contrary to popular belief a close fight CAN be a robbery. I’m not suggesting that Ward winning was a robbery but yes a close fight can be a robbery. Here is how.
If how you got to the conclusion was a miscalculation or just bad judgment then it’s a robbery. For example Pacquiao vs Marquez 1. A judge in that first fight claimed he didn’t know he could score a round 10-6. He claimed that he would have given Manny a 10-6 round because he dropped Marquez 3 times. He officially scored it 10-7. The fight was ruled a draw. …
Another case was the Oscar De La Hoya vs Felix Trinidad fight. A judge in that fight scored round 12 for Oscar. Even Oscar’s biggest fans knew he lost the 12th round because he was coasting. But scoring round 12 for Oscar made the fight look closer because Trinidad was already winning on that judges scorecard and the popular train of thought was Trinidad was trailing early and had to close the gap to come back…
Look at Marquez vs Barrera. Barrera clips Marquez with a right hand. Marquez stumbles and his gloves touch the canvas. The referee misses the knockdown call and takes a point away from Barrera for hitting Marquez while his glove was on the canvas. 3 point swing and Marquez wins the fight.
In general you can have a clean score of 115-113 with one fighter winning 7 clean rounds and another 5 clean. If a judge screws up just one of those rounds when it wasn’t a swing round then yes the fighter who won 7 rounds was robbed. I hope my explanation made sense to you.
So yes this is another boxing myth that gets repeated along with “you have to take the fight from the champion to win the belt.” If this was the case no boxer fighting off of his back foot could win a decision challenging for a title. Tell Ivan Calderon, Willie Pep and Pernell Whitaker that. It’s the most ridiculous myth ever repeated.
Back to the topic. Yes a close fight can be a robbery it just depends on how the judges came up with the decision. Also I want to add something about swing rounds. If you are a fair observer… Split the rounds down the middle. When you see a fight and ALL of the swing rounds go to one side then you know there was overcompensation.
I don’t want to say every bad decision or bad call is a robbery. Or Every mistake is purposeful. But just because something was not done on purpose it doesn’t mean it’s excusable.
Bread what up,
I just wanted to add my 2 cents to the Ward vs Kovalev fight.My first response when it was over was Ward may have out hustled him but he didn't have those dramatic moments like Krusher did and I wasn't sure he pulled it off and I'm still not! It was the best vs the best and it went down to the wire as it should have.That being said only boxing can screw up a great night! What's up with so called boxing experts like Steve Kim and Douglas Fischer going on Twitter tantrums and Hissy fits about a so called bad decision? I mean to put this fight up there with Holyfield vs Lewis are Whitaker vs Chavez is not only irresponsible it's incompetent! For the record I'm a Andre Ward fan and I called it even 6 5 1 in rounds for ward and Sergei getting a two point round and I can't argue either way but my question is I haft to question these guys motive where was the cry of outrage a few weeks ago when the Venezuelan fighter Solis was ROBBED against McDonnell are even the fight on the Ward undercard! These guys have selective memories what about Beltran vs Burns are what about the ref in the Selby vs Hunter scrap, not a peep! I could go on and on but let one of their favorites lose a close one and the world stops! a bunch of fans disguised as journalist and don't get me started on Stephen A Smith he called one fight and now he's an expert? He said it was a robbery but then exposed his ignorance by revealing his scorecard (he had Krusher by one!)If you ever bump heads with him ask him who Buster Drayton or Russia Perdroza are guarantee hell have to google it! Had to get that off! That being said Kovalev is a lot Better than I thought and I've been in denial about Andre Ward since he came back something just seems off.If they have the rematch I see a Roy Jones vs Target outcome I feel like Kovalev like Tarver thought he could win now he knows he can it might get ugly call it a 7th round ko.Also if GGG fights Jacobs I see a Julian Jackson vs Terry Norris scenario where Jacobs looks good and then BOOM!also if the media insists on calling Danny Garcia a Cherry picker here's the last 3 fights Kell Brook Had before the Triple G fight Ionut Dan Ion ,Frankie Gavin, Kevin Bizier again not a peep from the media don't pick and choose some of us pay attention!
Leon
Bread’s Response: I get along well with most of the boxing media. Steve Kim and Doug Fischer have always been fair and respectful to me. I didn’t see any twitter tantrums but everyone has a right to their opinions. Just like you have a right to yours. That’s a reasonable scorecard you handed in by the way, lol.
Kovalev is a little better than I thought he was also. I knew he was the real deal but labels can sometimes discredit talent. We label Kovalev a puncher but he’s just as good as a long range boxer that Andre is and that’s saying something. Ward is a guy who outboxed Olympians who had him by 4 inches in height and reach from the outside. Ward separated himself inside not outside. He usually does both.
The rematch can go a few ways. One is Ward can pick up where he left off. It’s unlikely that Kovaelv will get out to the same blazing start two fights in a row. Or Kovalev can start even faster and try to blow Andre out. The problem with that is he will run out of gas if he does not get the ko. Ward has to get inside earlier but that’s easier said than done, Kovalev is a legitimate puncher. Kovalev has to go to Ward’s body more. He neglected his body punching. After thinking out loud I say the rematch is 50/50 also.
I would love to see GGG vs Jacobs. Let’s hope it gets made. In 2017 I’m hoping for 12 mega fights. Once a month the best two fighters in each division fight. So far we have Frampton vs Santa Cruz and Garcia vs Thurman. If GGG vs Jacobs happens all I can say is whoo! I will keep my pick tucked away until they sign to fight.
I remember you said that you thought Andre Ward had the better gas tank, meaning stamina. You were absolutely correct. Why do you think Kovalev slowed down when the fight was going his way early. I had Ward winning 8 or 9 rounds I don’t get all of the controversy.
Bread’s Response: If you had Ward winning 8 or 9 rounds you most likely overcompensated. It’s hard to score a swing round against someone you are rooting for. The consensus opinion is Kovalev won between 4 and 6 of the first 6 rounds. So if that is the consensus I will assume you have Kovaelv winning just 4 of the first 6 and nothing else. That wouldn’t be fair.
I would say the same thing to a Kovalev fan if they scored it exactly opposite the other way. This was an extremely close fight! Neither fighter won more than 7 rounds.
Ok let’s talk about Kovalev’s gas tank. He didn’t exactly slow down with his punch output. He actually threw more and landed more punches in the 2nd half of the fight than he did in the 1st half of the fight. But he slowed down in his reactive time. He slowed down with his body language. His stance became more disorganized. He lost form. This gives the impression of fatigue despite a higher punch output.
Andre Ward is a spiritual man. There is something said about a man who understands how to be still, how to draw his inspiration from the inner. In boxing your character outside of the ring reveals itself in the ring. Kovalev has a mean way about him. It’s nothing wrong with that. But he also has an antsy irritable way about him. So as a fight goes on he’s not as contained as he is early. To be exact it’s not a Frontrunners syndrome. He doesn’t have a weak gas tank. His form is just not on the level of Ward’s as the fight goes on. He does not have the mental stamina and the ability to concentrate as long as Andre Ward.
I think everyone would agree the Ward Kovalev fight was close. What nobody is talking about is that I think a rematch will be a much easier fight for Ward than Kovalev. In most rematches that I can think of the boxer always does better because they have more dimensions. What differently can Kovalev do? Do you agree with this assessment?
--
Marlon, Washington, DC
Bread’s Response: Great question. I have thought about this and I agree with you but not for your reasoning.
I think the fighter who does better in rematches especially if the rematches happen within a short period of time of the first fight is the fighter who didn’t have to go as deep in his well. For example Floyd Mayweather has spoiled us in his immediate rematches.
Floyd defeated Marcos Maidana and Jose Luis Castillo both in immediate rematches. One of the major reasons why was Maidana and Castillo both just couldn’t fight any better than they did in their first fights with Floyd. It’s almost like someone asking you to beat the best mile runner in the world on a Tuesday. You have a great day and set your personal best record and nip them. Then you are asked to beat them again on a Friday. It’s tough. Same thing in boxing.
Let’s look at other rematches. Ray Leonard vs Roberto Duran. People make excuses for Duran like he gained too much weight in between fights etc etc. But Duran always gained weight in between fights and he had 2 months to get ready. The real reason he couldn’t beat Leonard 5 months later was for as great as Duran was, in the 1st Leonard fight he went to a new place. Duran was as good as Sugar Ray Robinson on that June night. Duran was never as good before or after that night. In fact it took him 3 years to turn in another masterful performance. So what happens in the rematch he just can’t imagine being on point for 15 rounds again with an all time great like Leonard who is a little bigger and a little faster and a little younger.
Let’s look at the case of Diego Corrales vs JL Castillo. Both men went to war in their first fight. But Corrales had to go over his head so much that he never won another fight after that. He left it ALL in that ring that night.
Erik Morales vs Manny Pacquiao. Morales fought his ass off in their first fight. He put it all together and held off a legitimately great fighter and nipped him. But his mind and body could not reach the level to do that again to a fighter of Pacquiao’s level.
Joe Frazier vs Muhammad Ali. Frazier was never better than he was in their first fight. If you look at Frazier closely in fights after their first fight, he was slower, he plodded and he didn’t have the same snap. His title defenses were non descript. In fact he never won another BIG fight. Ali gave a lot of himself but he didn’t give ALL of himself. There is a difference.
Aaron Pryor vs Alexis Arguello. Arguello fought valiantly for 14 rounds vs Pryor. In fact he put up an all time struggle vs Pryor. But there was no way he could go through that again for 14 rounds. So in the rematch he could only take it for 10 rounds.
Willie Pep vs Sandy Saddler. Pep loses the 1st fight. So he puts on the performance of his life and holds off the killer in Saddler in the rematch. But he was done. That was as high as he could go at the time. So he loses the next two vs Saddler because Pep could not go back to the “in the zone” place he was for the winning fight.
Sometimes and often times it’s the better boxer who wins the rematches. But it’s not always the case. Often times it’s the fighter who cannot go to that deep well again.
Now I don’t know how deep Kovalev or Ward went in camp. Only they know if they went to a level unattainable again in the fight. Maybe both can raise their games and go higher. They are 32 and 33 which is not old in this era. Who knows? I can remember in highschool Knicks fans would go crazy when John Starks had a great game against MJ. I knew then, that having 4 good games and outplaying MJ was impossible. The highschool kids soon found out at the expense of their lunch and token money.
The fighter who wins this rematch especially if it’s within a year is the fighter who can go to a higher place than he did Saturday without burning himself out. I still don’t know who that is.
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